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Mac users' opinion on Hackintoshs


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I grew up with Mac. The Plus, The SE/30, an LC 475, A G4-400, MacMini G4 1.5 Ghz. So I am a real Mac User. Unfortunately Steve and co took the wrong path somewhere in early 2007. MTV-bling took over and the Creative Pro was left in the dark. Glossy iMacs with cheap-ass SPVA's were the slap in the face. The Mac Pro is a product I do not want on my desk either. I want a small box with good basic horsepower. I want a decent monitor to do edit photo's. I do not want a computer souping 200-500 Watt. Not having internal laptop-hd's, not having shared graphics. The OS is great, but the boxes containing it are no longer pleasing. I want screws to open the damn case and have room to mess the interiour and upgrade. As long as Apple does not make a headless iMac, I'm in the OSx86 underground.

Besides, Virtual environments are the future. Even Microsoft updates licenses to go virtual. Steve sticks his head in the ground by demanding Apple boxes. That is something of the past century.

I used to see someone creative when I found someone who uses a mac.

Today I see someone loaded using a Mac to play iTunes with the remote over his Plasma Television. Not the mac-user I like.

Lets all be honest....

 

Mac's are not custom or any higher quality hardware(just PURDY cases and KEYBOARDS basically makes Apple different) than any of your basic PC manufactures use. There was a time when they *might* have been special during PPC era(to some people, not me), but that time has passed with the ushering in of the intel age. Its just a fact that some of the "self rightous, elitest, attitudinal, apple/ Steve Jobs co*k sucking idiots" need to get over. It's all just generic hardware now. Apple does'nt own one factory where they actually "BUILD" the hardware. They pretty much buy the parts from manufacturers (intel, WD, seagate, etc, etc) contract most or all of the assembly of it out, pretty much like many other "computer manufacturers".

 

I for one started on a hackintosh laptop, which I still own (HP ZD8000), and ended up buying a MBP, and then a Macpro. I have nothing against "hackintoshes", and think that it has also lead to alot of purchases or legit apple hardware, as I am an example of. In addition, I make no promisses that i will never build another "hack", as it depends on what i want to do, and how much money i have available at the time. Sometimes, I just want to tinker for the hell of it., as do alot of people here........

 

 

3rd of all, OSX is not perfect. I finally got my wireless issues resolved via 10.5.2 yesterday, but I still dont see much that makes Leopard much better than Vista, which I hate, but have to support occasionally. I personally can get ALL of my work accomplished with EITHER OS. I will be honest. When I first bought my MBP, I installed parallels, and stayed in XP 95% of the time, OSX 5%. I have now started to use Leopard/OSX about 80% of the time, and XP maybe 15%, Vista 5%. This is merely due to the fact that I do feel a little more secure surfing online with OSX(although I primarily use OPERA on all my platforms for surfing), and I also have stopped gaming on my computers. I have gone back to console gaming on my PS3 and Xbox360. Now this is just my experience, but Leopard has/had almost had as many "bugs" as Vista. I do feel that it is getting stable "quicker" than Vista is, as evidenced by the newest update, but then again who knows, what tomorrow may bring for Vista(besides SP1)???

 

In addition I always wanted to ask the Apple LOYAL: If Apple computers are so perfect, then why is it that even though they are pretty much on a "locked" specific hardware platform, that they still have software/OS related issues???? Are'nt they supposed to "JUST WORK"??? heh, yeah RIGHT, now go look at the Apple support discussions...LOL

 

Oh yeah, Linux rocks too, but still not quite primetime for the desktop....(DAM UBUNTU SLEEP ISSUES....urgh!!!)

 

And life goes on...USE WHAT YOU LIKE, and tell those who try to belittle you to F*CK OFF!!!!

 

'cheers...

I really want to support OSX development.. but since they have no plans to support anything else other than their own systems.. I think I will just play around with it and ditch. I mean.. there are applications I use that are Windows only.. it'll be hard to switch unless they come in Mac editions later. In a way, compatibility is sometimes as bad as Linux :P. I think even printer choice is limited..

 

I'm not sure if I really want to invest in a Mac.. because more often than not.. I wonder what I am paying for more.. the name? or the molded plastic? what's in it for me other than the awesome OS it comes with?.. then again.. the same can be said about some Dell computers.

 

Of course, there are exceptions.. like the Mac mini.. or iTV.. you can't build anything near that size using custom pc parts.. and they suck so little power. So if it has to be a Mac, I might give those two a shot. It is at this point in time where you wonder.. where are the custom laptop pc parts? mobile cpus, mobile mobos, mobile gpus??

 

Thanks for all your positive replies. Now I won't feel that bad about building a hackintosh.. or hell.. maybe even trying a mac keyboard on a pc. Basically, the guy likes anything apple.. if it's made by anything else.. it's "ghetto". Dell? "Ghetto + Ugly" HP? "Ghetto" Anything that's not an iphone, itouch or nano? "Ghetto"

 

I don't know.. perhaps I am better off not talking to him about computer stuff anymore.

i guess he wouldn't like that i run ubuntu on an old imac would he lol...

 

i really hate these people that think that it is horrible that someone isn't drinking their coffee out of an imug. I know i said it before but hes a douche.

 

 

He is the kinda person that gives mac users a bad name... the people out there that think the same way as him make people think about the "air" about apple users.

 

idk it just annoys me ;)

I don't think my roommate cares too much that I built a hackintosh. He might care (without admitting it) that my humble hac gets better geekbench scores than his dual xeon 2.6 macpro though. ;)

 

You do pay in the extra time you invest though. I just look at it as a geeky hobby.

Firstly, Apple is a hardware, not a software company. The reason they make their software only for their computers it to sell more hardware. By running OSX86 you are merely getting around their aim to sell more hardware. Thank god you can't run the iPod OS and iPhone OS on different devices or Apple would lose some tens of dollars per year.

 

Secondly, by letting the Mac OS run on other hardware you get more people complaining that their unsupported cheapo card from *unknown* manufacturer in China is, in fact, unsupported. Less hardware support, less complaints.

 

It wasn't until recently that I discovered that Intel made CPUs that ran at less than 2.0GHz. AFAIK Apple get the new and faster chips earlier. Heck, didn't they buy all of the new 4-core chips to make the 8-core Mac Pros? I hear they've got a mortgage out on the Penryn chips that should appear in the new MacBook Pros. Newer hardware, earlier.

 

I will finish with a conversation between a friend of mine and I. He uses Vista on a PC laptop. I installed Vista on my MBP and complained that Vista couldn't turn off Wifi and Bluetooth. My friend asked me where the switches were on my MBP for turning those things off, for surely all I had to do was to flick those switches. I gave him a blank stare. It made absolutely no sense to me that an OS couldn't turn such things on and off, and instead the user would have to resort to using switches that could break off (as would tray loading Optical Drives and basically anything that could stick out from a laptop and be pushed against items in a bag).

Later on (I was back in OS X) he asked me why I had only one button yet my computer used right-clicking a lot. I showed him two-fingered clicking. His mouse jumped across the screen when he tried. I showed him two-fingered scrolling, he showed me a scrolling section of the trackpad. I scrolled sideways. Again he failed to mimic. His webcam sticks out from his monitor, mine doesn't. He didn't have bluetooth. He only had 802.11g support, 4-Pin Firewire (I didn't know that was a valid non-camera-end connection), etc. Little things like that. And his laptop was heavier.

 

To capt_cope: Did you try using the same software in the same OS on the Mac Pro? IMO some companies don't seem to really have their heart in OS X support, so test the same software in Vista on the Mac Pro to get a good test of hardware differences. And can your PC support 3 more HDDs, throw in a few more graphics cards for support of 8 30-inch displays (Imagine using Spaces with that!), and up to 32GB of RAM? And still be whisper quiet? And would the ability to be upgraded that much still cost ~ $1000?

 

Anyway, the point of all this is that Apple sells hardware with 50% of sales price being profit (or at least that is the case with the iPhone). Even then, I would like to see someone show me their PC being the same volume and weight with similar specs and still come out with a lower price. Oh yeah, and be fully Mac OS 10.5 - compatible with not a single bump on the road to usability.

 

Oh and one last thing, please don't take any of this personally, any of you. I may be an opinionated Mac zealot, but what I say is sometimes more opinion littered with facts than facts littered with opinion.

Personally I like the idea of being able to build a MAC, but in reality you would most likely be spending more money (either all at once or over time) to build a legit MAC.

 

I say that only because one of the previous/current 'Hackintoshes' builds was more than the original cost of the same machine built by Apple minus the additional ram the builder installed. (I believe this Hackintosh was originally built by an individual who had extensive engineering and fabrication abilities because he had to modify a number of things; he was also talking about making that system water cooled as well. This would be well outside the average builders ability without a lot of trial and error and many $$$ down the toilet.)

 

If Apple still allowed clone machines like those from StarMax and UniTron, I would say it would be practical and very fun to build them. But not today and not at the prices they would charge you for various parts.

I grew up with Mac. The Plus, The SE/30, an LC 475, A G4-400, MacMini G4 1.5 Ghz. So I am a real Mac User. Unfortunately Steve and co took the wrong path somewhere in early 2007. MTV-bling took over and the Creative Pro was left in the dark. Glossy iMacs with cheap-ass SPVA's were the slap in the face. The Mac Pro is a product I do not want on my desk either. I want a small box with good basic horsepower. I want a decent monitor to do edit photo's. I do not want a computer souping 200-500 Watt. Not having internal laptop-hd's, not having shared graphics. The OS is great, but the boxes containing it are no longer pleasing. I want screws to open the damn case and have room to mess the interiour and upgrade. As long as Apple does not make a headless iMac, I'm in the OSx86 underground.

Besides, Virtual environments are the future. Even Microsoft updates licenses to go virtual. Steve sticks his head in the ground by demanding Apple boxes. That is something of the past century.

I used to see someone creative when I found someone who uses a mac.

Today I see someone loaded using a Mac to play iTunes with the remote over his Plasma Television. Not the mac-user I like.

 

+1

 

I'm very sad that Apple switched to Intel. I was thoroughly fanboy of the PowerPC Chips. Intelmacs are (imo) no Macs anymore.

That's the reason, why I am building a Hackintosh. Sad but true.

I had a Hackintosh then I got an iMac, true it's the lowest end one, but it's a real Mac. I was a Hard Core Windows Enthusiast, and then my Parents upgraded from their slower than ever 350mhz G4 to an Intel iMac. So then I decided, Hey Macs are Cool. so I went and built a Hackintosh. Tried it out, and all of my Family loved it, so we went and bought an iMac. Because of my building a Hackintosh Apple got another customer. Anyway I picture using Mac OS X then illegally as just and advance using of it, before I bought it. Kind of try before you buy, just longer. Sometime I MAY build a computer just for being a Hackintosh, but that is a ways away. I just think of my Hackintosh days as "Trying Before you Buy" days, kinda stealing, kinda not. But heck, right now Apple doesn't really care.

Firstly.. you're asking the wrong forum. In order to get the answers you're looking for you need to go to a Mac only forum and not one that supports OSx86.

 

Secondly, I've been running 3 OS's for the last couple of years or more.. Windows XP, Ubuntu Linux, and Mac OS X. I also have Windows Vista, but I think I've used it maybe 10 hours at most the last 1.5 years. I have a real Intel Mac Mini which runs Leopard and also a Hackintosh running Leopard also. My main OS is Ubuntu linux since it works for most of everything I do now-a-days which is web surf, watch TV, play movies, play music, and burn some DVD's and CD's occasionally. I log into my Windows XP partition occasionally to rip DVD's, play games, and use MS Office occasionally. My Hackintosh and Mac Mini don't get too much use, but I do use it for itunes podcasts, watch TV (since it's on a bigger monitor), watch Joost, and just mess around with iLife a little.

 

I really like OSx86 and think it's great to run on Hackintoshes since Apple doesn't make a mid level Mac desktop that is really upgradeable.

I run a Hackintosh as it's much cheaper and I like OSX. I spent around £300 and got a 3GHz C2D, 4GB RAM system... it's faster than a Mac Mini in every way and at least £100 cheaper. It gets an Xbench score of ~164, not bad for £300.

 

I also have the new aluminium USB Apple Keyboard... so it feels like a Mac!

i started out with an ibook g4. i loved that thing. it was my first mac and i had to save every peny i got while working extra shifts. it represented my very on piece of luxury. now i run a hackintosh because i dont care for the luxury thingy anymore. running a hackintosh gives me the punk feeling and i think thats what some "real mac owners" dont like. a friend of mine works for apple retail and he was shocked to see the leopard roar on my kick ass machine. running osx on my machine makes me feel like an outlaw and i kind of like that.

 

building a hackintosh has tought me a lot about BSD and UNIX operating systems. before that i was a windows guy with a desktop machine. i mean if windows broke down, you know what to do in order to rescure your installaiton. mac os on a real mac never breaks down so hard, that you dont know what to do. on a hackintosh those chances are high. so in order to prevent your installation from falling apart, you have to learn how the system works.

 

BUT while learning on how to build your own machine, you also learn, that apple builds its machines around relatively cheap hardware. the graphics adapter inside an imac is low end as compared to the usual ones on a pc. same is true for the mainboard and the soundchip for example. so in building my hackintosh, i can choose components of a higher quality, then the ones inside the real machine.

 

and thats what i always use as THE leading argument againt my hackintosh hating mac-fanboy friends.

Hackintoshes are awesome, I started to build my hackintosh 2 years ago. I was fairly excited when I heard that Apple is switching to use the Intel CPUs, it was a new era of operating system options increasing where windows is great but the ability to run an OS which was bound to a PPC platform had broken free from that jail and going to be on Intel CPUs. Then the news came out that Apple had been working with Intel for atleast 4 years to get their OS to work on Intel CPUs.

 

My first Hackintosh was using Tiger 10.4.8 (exciting times, spending days and nights on insanelymac/osx86project) finding the drivers for the specific hardware, making sure to buy the hardware best supported. My second hackintosh is 100% working with leopard. Not to mention that owning my first hackintosh got me to buy myself a MacBook Pro 17" (after selling off my sony notebook 17" which was purchase by the company I worked for) To say the least the MacBook Pro was the first machine ever that I paid full price for, a total of $3100 (with 3yr extended protection plan).

 

Before this I always had a machine which was either migrated from or migrating to another machine. Parts is all I ever purchased for over 13 yrs, I'd buy motherboards+cpu, memory and then video. The hard-drives would stick around till they died or replaced with bigger capacity.

 

The Mac OS has definitely opened a new door of innovation in an operating system which makes it worth owning a genuine machine, not to say that 2 months after I purchased the MBP 17" it had been updated with 2.4Ghz, 4GB Ram and 1920x1200 resolution screen (which I had on my sony).

 

There are some comparisons on this thread which compare xeons to core2duo and having a better geekbench score well thats all awesome, I feel for the Mac Pro owner, but if anything goes wrong with the mac pro, Apple will happily replace his machine with the latest model (thats if he had purchased the 3 yr protection plan)

 

Thanks! I love my Hackintosh and MacBook Pro, not to mention they work very happily together sharing the same TimeMachine Backup drive.

As a hardware guy, I can't find much interesting in Apple's systems. The laptop/LCD hybrid iMac is the only decent value as far as Apple hardware--unfortunately its limitations make it not a great system for many people.

 

Apple hardware is low end like every other big PC seller (Dell, HP). The fact that Apple does their own software is merely unique. Apple software just isn't that great either.

 

Apple has marketing down very well. There is very little profit margin in generic computer hardware. Apple selling the same stuff with high profits is good for them. I personally would not want to be a company making PCs right now.

 

I am looking forward to more cheap mini laptops like the ASUS Eee PC. I think that will be a big market segment in the future. Apple's answer of iPhone/iPod Touch/Mac Air doesn't work for me. (I am happy with my 3 year old NEC Mobile Pro 900C for now.)

 

Where's the Mac with a <35W 3.16GHz Core 2 Duo E8500 and fast, low-latency memory? Put it in a case one forth the size of the Mac Pro with reasonable expansion--there's a nice system.

My first Mac was the Mac SE, back in 1988. My first color Mac was also the first Mac that offered color-- The Macintosh II.

 

I'm still a Mac user. I haven't built or bought a Hackintosh yet, but I plan to. I want a value ultra-portable for offloading of digital pics, journalling, and checking email on the go. Mac portables are too expensive for my budget and too big for my camera bag. A Hackintosh just might fit the bill.

 

I will remain a Mac user. I will still buy Apple products. My Hackintosh will not be my main computer, but a supplement to my Apple hardware. While several of you have correctly pointed out that Apple hardware is more expensive, I can only offer this retort: Apple hardware just works with the OS. It always has in my experience. My PC trials and tribulations drove me to the Mac, and my continuing problems with Windows (from 3.1 to Vista) only serve to reaffirm my belief in Apple products-- My Linux experiences make Windows seem insanely great. The simple fact is that when a single company supplies both the operating system and the hardware they can produce a platform with fewer compatibility issues and far fewer hassles for the consumer.

 

Yes, I know I am stoopid-dumb for even considering a Hackintosh with that said. But my planned hack has been done before, and many pitfalls have been documented-- I want to run OS X on an Asus EeePC. Apple offers nothing in the sub-notebook department, but that is what I need... something cheap that will fit my camera bag. (If my hack doesn't work, I can still run the Linux OS that it ships with as a backup plan.)

 

There are many Apple hardware loyalists out there... Their industrial design is (usually) forward thinking and dependable.

 

Cheers!

 

 

 

 

 

 

P.S.: During the 'Dark Times' at Apple, under the reigns of Scully and Amelio, I tried out Yellow Dog Linux-- a Red Hat derivation-- on my PPC 7100. (Yes, I thought about jumping-ship when Apple sucked... I'm not _that_ freakin' loyal.) I currently run YDL Linux on my old blue-and-white G3 tower. Despite the extra work required to set up properly, I like Linux due to its superior configurability (way cooler than Mac or Windows) and have made it play nice with my networked Mac OS X minis. So for me, hacking a UMPC that already runs Linux is not much of a risk. (In fact, if more commercial software was available for Linux, I'd reconsider jumping-ship!)

I currently own several macs in my home: a mac mini, powerbook and a powermac. In the process of upgrading all my macs to leopard my powerbook died leaving me with an extra licence from the family pack unused.

 

Now although I love Apple laptops, they are lacking when it comes to a midrange, expandable desktop system. Even employees at the Apple Store are stumped when I told them what I wanted to do with my machine (which isn't that hard); they recognize that you have to pay more than you have to in order to buy an expandable machine and you have to do all kinds of tricks to attempt to install no-brainer hardware like more memory or a faster hard drive on the cheaper items.

 

Apple also has a problem supporting their older hardware. You're basically out of luck from Apple if you want to install N network cards on first-gen Macbooks and the minis. Heck I'm going to have to pop open my mini with special tools to upgrade the memory just so I can meet the minimum requirement to install leopard and then the mini's don't support the 802.11n spec. I shouldn't have to basically buy a whole new laptop just to get something as simple as a new network card install that's supported by apple. And I won't go into all the older Mac Pro owners complaining because they are stuck with a ATI 1900XT as their main video card when Apple could very well give them the choice for a new card instead of making them buy a whole new system just to upgrade.

 

So that's where the hackintoshs come in; sure Apple doesn't like it, but then I don't like eating the cost of a license because I don't have equipment to install it on. I don't like to have to guess when to plan my Apple purchases so I don't buy something then two months later a new feature is added that I have no chance of getting. So now that I have my Hackintosh up and going, I can do simple things such as install multiple versions of an OS by popping out the hard drive, or upgrading my wireless without having to haul my whole system down to the Apple store and hope they support upgrading it.

 

I'll still get my new Macbook Pro later this year, but I'm happy have a desktop machine that meets my needs.

My dad just got a dual G5 machine with a Geforce 7800 from a friend. It is nice, it's fast, so this is what I'm comparing a hack to.

 

Hackintosh computers are good. It's a good alternative to Windows if you know what you're doing. As for the mac part, I've always liked Mac OS features. But, as much as I think Osx86 is nice, it's not really mac. It is, but it isn't.

I like Linux due to its superior configurability (way cooler than Mac or Windows) and have made it play nice with my networked Mac OS X minis. So for me, hacking a UMPC that already runs Linux is not much of a risk. (In fact, if more commercial software was available for Linux, I'd reconsider jumping-ship!)

It is possible to run the Linux desktop managers (KDE/Gnome) on OSX. I had KDE3 running on my G4 with all the KDE applications running alongside OSX applications. They are currently attempting to port KDE4 to Windows of all things. The line between OSes is blurring everyday.

 

Apple offers nothing in the sub-notebook department, but that is what I need... something cheap that will fit my camera bag.

If you want something cheap--$80~$175, I like my Handheld PC--a NEC Mobile Pro 900C: 400MHz Intel XScale, Windows CE.NET 4.2. Smaller then the Eee PC with a bigger keyboard and a touch screen. There are some pictures here comparing the Asus Eee PC, NEC Mobile Pro 900C, and the HP Jornada 720. These old Handheld PCs can run JLime Linux. I run a user modified CE.NET that allows me to run most newer Windows Mobile software on the 900C.

 

Actually the processor in the NEC is similar to the one found in the iPhone/iPod Touch so it might be possible to run the iPhone version of OSX on it. I wonder if anyone is working on that.

I’m mac user since system 8 (I work in graphic design) in my job I’m stuck with my imac g5, but, personally, I’m not a purist, i love the mac computer design, but i love my hackintosh and if you have patience to find drivers for your hack, if you see your monitor it’s the same thing :P, my boss bought an macbook pro (intel core 2 duo 2,2 ghz, 2gb ram, geforce 8600) one month ago, I’m testing that machine and my hackintosh runs pretty similar, I can afford a new mac and hackintosh it’s a good choice for me (because i don’t like windows) :P

 

pabs :devil:

Well for me it's the price thing, i wanted a laptop with a 15 inch screen for reasonable money. Apple charges 1899 Euro (inclusive tax which is 19% here..) for a laptop with 15inch. Acer charges 379 euro, added 1gigabyte for 14 euro and now i have a 393 euro 15,4inch laptop with OSX. The cpu is no dual core, but for what i do with a laptop you would not know the difference anyway.

 

hackingtosh is the only way to go if you are a bit cost concious, saved me 1500 euro ! That's 25.000 dollars ! :)

This seems a bit of a controversial issue, that many users will take offense to and others will find funny, and being a Mac and ex-hackintosh user, i feel i have fair... Understanding for both sides.

 

 

To me now, i do feel ashamed and always will of PC's in general, and vow never to look back to one again, installing OS X on a PC is Moderately ok, until you can afford a Mac, but you should first buy a license for OS X... before you download.

 

I don't think i will user a hackintosh again, as i find them, compared to my shiny iMac, "Dirty"....

It is like a recent article, Mac users are snobs, and now being one, i thrive on every opportunity to rub my friends noses in it that i don't get BSOD, viruses, mailware/spyware and my computer works.

 

Some fair points, maybe a bit one sided, but hey, how gives one..

 

Think Mark

 

EDIT: and i really don't care much on price of Apple products, and its their choice on price. I would pay anything for them...

:P

 

EDIT:

hackingtosh is the only way to go if you are a bit cost concious, saved me 1500 euro ! That's 25.000 dollars

 

OK, so Hackingtosh, has no G... & secondly 1500 Euro is 2,223.823USD......

1) and i really don't care much on price of Apple products, and its their choice on price. I would pay anything for them...

 

2) OK, so Hackingtosh, has no G... & secondly 1500 Euro is 2,223.823USD......

1) Apple = 100% pc parts nowadays If paying over the top for a bunch of OEM products in a shiny case is your thing, go right ahead.

 

2) the 1500 euro = 25000 dollars sentence is known as a "joke". Joke = trying to be funny by exaggeration and/or nonsense. Try a few it's fun :)

Flower- a hackintosh is a pc running mac osx.

 

Personally i think its a good idea, its more users on the platform and its a good stepping stone into full on mac hardware.

 

The reason i am building a hackintosh is because, if i go and buy a macpro, 3 months down the road it could be obsolete....thats it game over.

 

But with a hackintosh, if a new processor comes out or a new motherboard is available, i dont have to trade in my system and buy a new one, i can just upgrade my old one.

 

Also, as a designer, if you give me two options, (forgetting about price) build or buy something, i will generally choose build everytime.

The problem is that many people view owning a Mac as a status elevator. Like owning Oakley sunglasses back in the 90's (and how "true" owners scoffed at all the people with the knockoffs) the cost of production was the same and the quality wasnt any different.

 

Apple has cashed in on the "haves and have nots" attitude. I personally have both ..a MBP and an old dell precision running 10.5.1. So what am I? Am I a cheap ass because I chose to spend $120 upgrading my laptop to 4GB of memory and didnt want to pay $400 at the time of ordering?

 

I like the hardware, I like the OS ...I dont care how I get either to work for me.

 

( i stopped reading after page 1; sorry if this is a redundant thought)

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