Rhapsody DR2

[RacerX]

Has anyone succeeded in running OpenStep 4.2 for PPC?

Um... what "OpenStep 4.2 for PPC" are you talking about?

 

There was never a version of OPENSTEP made that would run on PowerPC hardware. There was an internal build of NEXTSTEP 2.x at NeXT that ran on an experimental PowerPC NeXT system, but beyond that... NeXT never made any PowerPC operating systems.

[Don Luca]

....I've read on wikipedia (italian one) that OpenStep was developed for several platforms as i386, Sparc, Risc and (ops) Motorola 68k.

 

I mean not PPC, I mean 68k, sorry, I often confuse those!

 

however, arix openstep 4.2 doesn't work at all... it is recognized as an Audio CD and all it reproduces is static sound.

 

EDIT: hey!!! Openstep isn't a stand-alone OS!!! it's an API for NextStep!!! Am I wrong?

[jackoverfull]

All PowerPC versions of Rhapsody come on a partitioned CD... with an HFS partition and a (Rhapsody) UFS partition. You boot the system from the HFS partition which has a version of the Mac OS on it (with a special extension installed) to run the installer.

 

The installer does three things...

1. It modifies the target volume and leaves a script of what packages are to be installed,
   
2. it modifies the firmware to let the hardware read (and boot from) Rhapsody formatted volumes, and
   
3. it points the system at the Rhapsody partition of the CD for rebooting and installation of the Rhapsody packages.
   

Once the packages are installed from the CD, the system is redirected to boot from the Rhapsody partition on the Mac. The first time it boots from that partition is when you run the Setup Assistant.

 

The two most common issues I get asked about with people who are using "non-original" Rhapsody media are:

1. "When I boot from the CD I get an error saying no desktop file found?"
   
2. "After I run the installer the system reboots but I end up back in Mac OS and the hard drive (target volume) is gone... what happened?"
   

In the first case, someone made the image on a non-Mac system and so resource files were stripped from the HFS partition (there is a special resource that makes the desktop folder the desktop folder and keeps it invisible from the user). The second case is usually an image of just the HFS partition of the original media, with the Rhapsody partition missing (because it is unreadable by most systems).

 

Beyond the installer, there is a utility that is included with Rhapsody for setting the firmware for a Rhapsody startup. In the Rhapsody developer releases it was called Multibooter and in the Server releases it was call System Disk. It is a good utility to get familiar with... specially if you are running Rhapsody on unsupported hardware.

 

This is what System Disk looks like...

 

ok, i got now the dr1 cd (thanks!) and tried it on an imac g3@400. the disc doesn't but (i expected that: there is os 8.0 on it…) so i installed os 8.6 and tried from it. the installer hung immediately after the license screen, no way. the booter utilities tells that is not supported and i have to force quit it.

i looked in the extensios folder and i can't find any strange one…

 

anyway i can confirm that the rhapsody partitions are here if someone else want to try it on a supported mac.

 

 

i'll wait for os x server…

[RacerX]

First... like Rhapsody, NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP have their own version of the UFS filesystem. This means that you aren't going to just mount one of these in some foreign OS.

 

Second... most of what is on Wikipedia about Rhapsody and NeXT is written by people who really have never even used this stuff. Don't take anything you find there as fact unless you can verify it with some other source.

 

EDIT: hey!!! Openstep isn't a stand-alone OS!!! it's an API for NextStep!!! Am I wrong?

Depends... what product are you talking about?

 

OPENSTEP... which is fully titled OPENSTEP for Mach, is an operating system. It is the fourth major version of the NeXT OS originally called NEXTSTEP (originally written as NeXTStep).

 

OpenStep is both the APIs and the Application Environment for non-NeXT systems (sold as OpenStep Enterprise).

 

There is a nice article on the naming conventions here.

 

however, arix openstep 4.2 doesn't work at all... it is recognized as an Audio CD and all it reproduces is static sound.

Part of the problem with all these images floating around is that you don't even get the basic info that was on the media itself.

 

For example... there was one CD for NEXTSTEP 3.3 for both NeXT and Intel hardware. But these images you guys are passing around blind don't tell you any of that.

 

And because you guys are assuming that you can run these in emulation software designed for special operating systems (Windows or the Mac OS), you are missing the fact that these systems are designed to be run on real hardware with certain conditions (requirements).

 

NeXT (or Apple for that matter) never intended their media to be opened on a Mac or Windows system. These CDs were for NeXT and Rhapsody systems.

 

 

 

But what is most frustrating is that it isn't like most of the documentation on this stuff is missing... it isn't. So it makes someone like me wonder why you guys aren't reading up on this stuff first.

 

When I got started in all this I read up on these things. And the original media came with manuals to help people with installing NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/Rhapsody. Both NeXT and Apple supplied articles for when you ran into issues.

 

And all that information is way better than the information (and misinformation) you get from Wikipedia.

 

I have to wonder some times if me being part of this forum is actually helping. Some questions are hard to find answers for, and first hand experience really is needed to fully understand what is happening... others are questions that only take a little bit of effort to solve by reading the documentation. But if I'm here to answer those questions, I may be stopping you guys from actually doing any reading at all.

 

____________________

 

ok, i got now the dr1 cd (thanks!) and tried it on an imac g3@400. the disc doesn't but (i expected that: there is os 8.0 on it…) so i installed os 8.6 and tried from it. the installer hung immediately after the license screen, no way. the booter utilities tells that is not supported and i have to force quit it.

i looked in the extensios folder and i can't find any strange one…

 

anyway i can confirm that the rhapsody partitions are here if someone else want to try it on a supported mac.

I don't think that either of the developer releases will work on an iMac G3/400... that system would need Rhapsody 5.3 or later.

 

Both Rhapsody 5.0 and 5.1 should work on most pre-Blue & White PCI Power Macs (but require a patch for them to run correctly on G3 processors).

 

A good way to judge if the developer releases will work is if the hardware has USB. Because the iMacs only have USB and neither Rhapsody 5.0 or 5.1 support USB, that pretty much rules out iMacs for them.

[BlackShadowWolf]

Can someone explain what MultiBooter/System Disk does exactly, as that advanced options button has me intriqued . Im still searching for Server 1.2 as I dont think 1.0 will work on my iBook, but I'll give it a shot though.

 

RacerX you should update the Wiki on Rhapsody etc. as you know a lot about this stuff and Im sure it will help people when they read it and know its from someone whos used the software.

[AriX]

Nothing.

I've tried everything.

Let's summarize what I tried:

 

CherryOS --> doesn't work.

PearPC --> doesn't work with Classic, so no way.

Qemu --> same as PearPC.

BasiliskII --> 68k-only emulator, pity.

Sheepshaver --> our only hope.

 

So the way to go is SheepShaver. It's useless wasting our time on other emulators.

 

BasiliskII has a nice SCSI emulator in it... I contacted the programmer of BasiliskII and Sheepshaver, asking if he can implement the SCSI thing in Sheepshaver.

Now I'm waiting for his reply.

 

btw, the problem is that SheepShaver treats our HD as big floppies, and Rhapsody cannot install on those...

So our only chance is that Sheepshaver's creator decide to port the SCSI thing to SheepShaver, or else.... i dunno.

 

Has anyone succeeded in running OpenStep 4.2 for PPC?

 

It's useless trying SheepShaver also. SheepShaver has no MMU.

 

I wonder if we can emulate a Linux PPC distro in PearPC and then use Mac-On-Linux?

[asdf111de]

Is Mac OS X Server 1.0 still going up today?

[AriX]

yep, it's uploading now

[BlackShadowWolf]

yep, it's uploading now

 

Yay please PM the link when its done, oh please oh please . Before I get too excited about it, what exactly did you upload. Is it an ISO, Toast image (hmm toast ) etc.? and if I burn it through Disk Utility on my mac, should it burn all the partitions (HFS & UFS) correctly because trying to mount a Rhapsody UFS partition just causes the Finder to go haywire, as in it quits and reloads about every second til the cd is ejected.

[AriX]

It is a Toast image, but it can be renamed to ISO and it will work as an ISO image. Yes, it will burn all the partitions, and also, you do not need to mount it at all, simply boot from it.

[jackoverfull]

First... like Rhapsody, NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP have their own version of the UFS filesystem. This means that you aren't going to just mount one of these in some foreign OS.

yes, tried also ( ). it is a bit strange: pdiskfor linux (wich is also called mac-fdisk) and for mac os x recognizes the partitions (forgot to try with pdisk for mac os classic-well, forgot that i have it installed…maybe tomorrow) but the linux system itself only see one partition. a bit confusing…

anyway if doesn't exists the format support trying under linux is futile…

i reinstalled today os 8.6 and i saw an extension called ufs enabler. do you know for what ufs is this? or it is for the dvd's ufs?

 

Depends... what product are you talking about?

 

OPENSTEP... which is fully titled OPENSTEP for Mach, is an operating system. It is the fourth major version of the NeXT OS originally called NEXTSTEP (originally written as NeXTStep).

 

OpenStep is both the APIs and the Application Environment for non-NeXT systems (sold as OpenStep Enterprise).

 

There is a nice article on the naming conventions here.

thanks, we will know how the NeXT OS is written!there has been a lot of confusion about this…

 

Part of the problem with all these images floating around is that you don't even get the basic info that was on the media itself.

 

For example... there was one CD for NEXTSTEP 3.3 for both NeXT and Intel hardware. But these images you guys are passing around blind don't tell you any of that.

 

And because you guys are assuming that you can run these in emulation software designed for special operating systems (Windows or the Mac OS), you are missing the fact that these systems are designed to be run on real hardware with certain conditions (requirements).

 

NeXT (or Apple for that matter) never intended their media to be opened on a Mac or Windows system. These CDs were for NeXT and Rhapsody systems.

But what is most frustrating is that it isn't like most of the documentation on this stuff is missing... it isn't. So it makes someone like me wonder why you guys aren't reading up on this stuff first.

 

When I got started in all this I read up on these things. And the original media came with manuals to help people with installing NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/Rhapsody. Both NeXT and Apple supplied articles for when you ran into issues.

 

And all that information is way better than the information (and misinformation) you get from Wikipedia.

i understand what you mean and i agree.

and - before someone ask, nextstep for 68k will not run on basilisk. it can't even run A/UX, wich was made by apple, it will not run an os made for another tipe of computers that had a different booting procedure…

 

I have to wonder some times if me being part of this forum is actually helping. Some questions are hard to find answers for, and first hand experience really is needed to fully understand what is happening... others are questions that only take a little bit of effort to solve by reading the documentation. But if I'm here to answer those questions, I may be stopping you guys from actually doing any reading at all.

well, maybe you're right, but you're expert in that and is a very nice thing that you help other people that are not expert. and, as you said, finding documentation isn't always easy…

 

I don't think that either of the developer releases will work on an iMac G3/400... that system would need Rhapsody 5.3 or later.

 

Both Rhapsody 5.0 and 5.1 should work on most pre-Blue & White PCI Power Macs (but require a patch for them to run correctly on G3 processors).

yes, i knew that, but i have only this version and macs too old or too new, that imac was the most similar to the original i have, so i gave it a try… now i'll wait for os x server…

 

anyway, if i can find a scsi cd reader (assuming that the scsi port still works, i'm not so sure…) do you think it will install on a powerbook 1400cs@133? it is here, under my bed, doing nothing with os 9.1 on it, my old good powerbook, sniff…

[asdf111de]

PLEASE please please PM me the OS X Server 1.0 link when it's uploaded.

[bwhsh8r]

ok, well, first of all openstep 4.2 is for x86 processors... not 68k... so there may lie your problem

 

AriX, renaming it .iso almost never works... u can try but nope...

 

max

[BlackShadowWolf]

AriX, renaming it .iso almost never works... u can try but nope...

 

max

 

Disk Utility can burn Toast images natively as Ive done it before, I just wasnt sure if it will burn all the partitions since its not an ISO image, but I really have no clue how disk images work so there now you know .

[AriX]

ok, well, first of all openstep 4.2 is for x86 processors... not 68k... so there may lie your problem

 

AriX, renaming it .iso almost never works... u can try but nope...

 

max

 

really? it tends to work for me...

[asdf111de]

AriX is on!

 

Is OS X Server 1.0 uploaded yet?

[AriX]

UNLESS I've said "blankity blank is uploaded, you may pm me for it", blankity blank has not been uploaded yet OSX Server will be ready tomorrow.

[RacerX]

Can someone explain what MultiBooter/System Disk does exactly, as that advanced options button has me intriqued.

It alters the firmware so that a Mac can startup from something other than a Mac OS.

 

Here is what the Advanced Options looks like...

 

 

One of the things you can do is set the system to stop the boot process at the firmware prompt so that you can instruct it which OS to start from (bye for the Mac OS and boot for Rhapsody as I recall).

 

RacerX you should update the Wiki on Rhapsody etc. as you know a lot about this stuff and Im sure it will help people when they read it and know its from someone whos used the software.

I've seen wiki-elitism in action... way too much of a head ache.

 

Someone put a link to my site on the Rhapsody OS page, so people do find there way to my site (and much of the info I have on it) eventually. And keeping my sites full of cool and interesting info is more fun than trying to fight the wiki-people.

 

 

 

ok, well, first of all openstep 4.2 is for x86 processors... not 68k...

Well, there is a 68k version of OPENSTEP 4.2... it is just for 68k NeXT systems and not Apple systems.

 

And yes, it is on the same disk as OPENSTEP 4.2 for Intel.

 

 

 

 

UNLESS I've said "blankity blank is uploaded, you may pm me for it", blankity blank has not been uploaded yet...

What version of blankity blank are we talking about? Because blank.blank most likely won't run in emulation.

[Don Luca]

Part of the problem with all these images floating around is that you don't even get the basic info that was on the media itself.

 

For example... there was one CD for NEXTSTEP 3.3 for both NeXT and Intel hardware. But these images you guys are passing around blind don't tell you any of that.

 

And because you guys are assuming that you can run these in emulation software designed for special operating systems (Windows or the Mac OS), you are missing the fact that these systems are designed to be run on real hardware with certain conditions (requirements).

 

NeXT (or Apple for that matter) never intended their media to be opened on a Mac or Windows system. These CDs were for NeXT and Rhapsody systems.

But what is most frustrating is that it isn't like most of the documentation on this stuff is missing... it isn't. So it makes someone like me wonder why you guys aren't reading up on this stuff first.

 

When I got started in all this I read up on these things. And the original media came with manuals to help people with installing NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/Rhapsody. Both NeXT and Apple supplied articles for when you ran into issues.

 

And all that information is way better than the information (and misinformation) you get from Wikipedia.

 

I totally agree with you, but if I act like this, there's a reason: time.

 

If my job was to find old OS and betas and try to make them work on real hardware or emulators I would spend most of my time surfing the net searching for useful info...

the problem is that I'm a student, and my spare time is extremely resctricted (let's say one hour a day) and I don't have time to do all the research that Rhapsody (or other OS) deserves, so I just give a quick look at Wiki and try to make the OS work.

That's it.

 

however, there's only one thing left to do to make Rhapsody work and it is what follows:

 

Linux on PPC doesn't work, I already tried various time, but if someone wants to give it a go, then you're welcome, if you want you can PM me for my MSN messenger contact and I'll give you all the infos I found around and I'll share my experiences.

 

The last thing (and this time, by "last" I REALLY mean LAST) to try is this:

 

Mac-on-Mac only works on Panther (or Jaguar?), so we're proceeding this way:

 

1 - Using Parallels we're creating a Virtual Machine with Windows XP (I recommend Tiny XP Rev. 05)

2 - Inside Windows we'll use PearPC to boot Panther (or Jaguar).

3 - Once inside Panther we can use Mac-on-Mac without problems, so we will boot Rhapsody PPC inside Mac-on-Mac.

 

These are my recommended settings for each virtual machine.

 

Real Mac: iMac Core2Duo, 20", 1 Gig Ram (or better)

 

1 - Parallels: Tiny XP Rev. 05, 512 Mb Ram, 10 Gb HD, 1280x1024

2 - PearPC: Mac OS X Panther (or Jaguar), 256 Mb Ram, 7 Gb HD, 1024x768

3 - Mac-on-Mac: Rhapsody PPC DR2, 128 Mb Ram, 2 Gb HD, 800x600

 

If someone feels like to try my method, please tell me, and I'll give you all the effort I can.

 

P.S.: if you're wondering where to find Panther (or Jaguar), they are on D€m0N0iD

[AriX]

by blankty blank i just meant wichever application i had uploaded. anyway, mac os x server is uploaded, you can now pm me for it, unless you did already, in that case, i'll get it to you by this afternoon.

[AriX]

If at this point anyone who wants OpenStep 4.2, Rhapsody DR2 Intel or PPC, or Mac OS X Server 1.0 doesn't have it, please pm me for it

 

All of today's uploads have been postponed to tomorrow.

[BlackShadowWolf]

Mac-on-Mac only works on Panther (or Jaguar?), so we're proceeding this way:

 

1 - Using Parallels we're creating a Virtual Machine with Windows XP (I recommend Tiny XP Rev. 05)

2 - Inside Windows we'll use PearPC to boot Panther (or Jaguar).

3 - Once inside Panther we can use Mac-on-Mac without problems, so we will boot Rhapsody PPC inside Mac-on-Mac.

 

These are my recommended settings for each virtual machine.

 

Real Mac: iMac Core2Duo, 20", 1 Gig Ram (or better)

 

1 - Parallels: Tiny XP Rev. 05, 512 Mb Ram, 10 Gb HD, 1280x1024

2 - PearPC: Mac OS X Panther (or Jaguar), 256 Mb Ram, 7 Gb HD, 1024x768

3 - Mac-on-Mac: Rhapsody PPC DR2, 128 Mb Ram, 2 Gb HD, 800x600

 

If someone feels like to try my method, please tell me, and I'll give you all the effort I can.

 

P.S.: if you're wondering where to find Panther (or Jaguar), they are on D€m0N0iD

 

Don Luca, your method sounds pretty good, but why not just skip Parallels and just use a windows pc? that would reduce the amount of memory needed and probably free up some resources. I have real Panther install discs (from eBay), but {censored} there at my house with everything else I need so I'll have to wait another 3 weeks before I can test it.

 

Problem is I think I tried to get Mac on Mac to work before on PearPC and either it doesnt work, or its too slow to use, but maybe it was because I was using a Mac OS 9 image that wasnt burned correctly .

[Patrix]

Guys,

 

I'm sorry to say that this Rhapsody PPC from AriX is no good. When I booted it on my PB3400c, I got the error message RacerX mentioned about there being no desktop folder.

 

EDIT: nope, still have to boot from CD to install Rhapsody. So it's a no go....

[Don Luca]

Patrix, that's not a problem:

 

We will update a Mac OS 9 installation, so we don't have to boot directly from Rhapsody CD.

[RacerX]

I totally agree with you, but if I act like this, there's a reason: time.

 

If my job was to find old OS and betas and try to make them work on real hardware or emulators I would spend most of my time surfing the net searching for useful info...

the problem is that I'm a student, and my spare time is extremely resctricted (let's say one hour a day) and I don't have time to do all the research that Rhapsody (or other OS) deserves, so I just give a quick look at Wiki and try to make the OS work.

That's it.

What exactly do you think I do for a living?

 

My job isn't to "find old OS and betas and try to make them work on real hardware or emulators". I make no money off this stuff... at all.

 

I work full time to help support my wife and I, plus I'm a graduate student in mathematics.

 

NEXTSTEP, OPENSTEP or Rhapsody have nothing to do with my business (which is all current Mac systems) or my education (where there really isn't much that a computer can do to help with anyways).

 

I don't care if you want to give yourself excuses for doing illegal activities or not doing actual research... just don't give them to me and expect me to think they justify your actions (or lack of actions).

 

Frankly, unless you are an accounting major, the skills you learn by researching a rare platform like Rhapsody or OPENSTEP/NEXTSTEP are very valuable. The value of this stuff isn't in Rhapsody/OPENSTEP/NEXTSTEP (none of which is ever going to become a mainstream OS), the value here is learning how to learn.

 

See, kids today... sorry, but they're lazy. Everything is quick and easy, or they don't care about it.

 

What I see in Rhapsody is a chance to get you guys excited about searching for solutions. So when I see you guys taking shortcuts (downloading software rather than searching for it, running to Wikipedia rather than using real Rhapsody info) I'm pretty disappointed.

 

I'll say it again because I can't stress it enough...

 

The value here is learning how to learn.

 

 

 

We will update a Mac OS 9 installation, so we don't have to boot directly from Rhapsody CD.

That'll be an interesting trick... seeing as Rhapsody doesn't "update" Mac OS 9.

 

There is no upgrade path to or from Rhapsody... it is its own OS.

 

Given that, how would you "update a Mac OS 9 installation"?