Apple Faces Federal MONOPOLY Suit

[robotskip]

Windows Media files could also be set to allow or deny duplication, burning to CD, or copying to a portable player.

Fairplay DRM'd files could be set to do that too and in fact, Fairplay does many of the things you mentioned (Like being copied to a portable player, which isn't an iPod).

Portable systems would be forced to register with a central authority, so if the user stopped paying ongoing rental subscription fees, the device would stop playing.

That is how a subscription works, for anything, not just an online music subscription or something offered by Microsoft.

While the options enforced by Janus offered lots of flexibility to media producers, they created confusion, complexity, and excessively strict and inconsistent limitations for users. A selection of media files might each have different sets of restrictions, depending on the whim or greed of the entity offering it for sale.

 

Further, the rules governing the transactions between media producers and consumers could change anytime at the whim of producers, leaving buyers with media that suddenly stopped working or behaved differently.

Another big 'what if' statement which ultimately means nothing. Fairplay is subject to these 'what ifs' aswell.

No consideration was made for fair use provisions; consumers got whatever producers decided to offer. Microsoft hoped to choke out all competition, making its Janus-based WMA format the only way to obtain commercial digital music.

Consumers get whatever producers, and Apple, choose to offer. How is Microsoft the vilian here ?

you dont read carefully.. allofmp3 is absolutely illegal, ther are other digital music vendors, they just doesnt have market share (MS is one of them)

Neither did you. Allofmp3 may be illegal, in the US, hell, even Russia but not everywhere. Also, Apple doesn't have quite the market share in PCs, maybe we should not include them in anything PC related.

read next... and In this case, Janus and PlaysForSure were rebranded under the Zune logo. As that "new" product's dramatic failure unfolds, Gates has inexplicably lashed out at “DRM,” which quite pointedly means Apple's competing iTunes, the only DRM system that has succeeded in the market for online music.

There is no current way to determine if the Zune is/isn't a failure, stop going on thise 'dramatic failure' charade. Also, Janus and PlaysForSure were not simply 'rebranded' - the Zune offering is vastly different, it has a different ecosystem, different options, etc.

 

Gates hasn't lashed out at DRM and the many comments he has made about DRM have been both before and after though I believe the statement you keep on throwing around was pre-Zune.

 

And no, it doesn't mean ONLY iTunes and iTunes ISN'T the only online music store to 'succeed' - he was talking about DRM as a whole and he is right, right now no DRM is quite 'good enough' for consumers.

it gives the user OPTIONS, they can move their own music around to their cars or boats, or stereos

You can do it with Zune DRM'd files (IIRC) too and like I freaking said, it's illegal. By burning it to a CD and ripping it you're effectively removing/bypassing any DRM and Apple did not intend you to, or want you to do this.

When you talk with informed facts in hand and with reason and logic in your words you cant be called a moron, unless you are a blind MSLover, your choice

I've said how many times to stop labelleing me as a 'MS lover' ? You're reported. Also, this little sentence portraying yourself as someone who provides an amazing logic/reason is simply false as your comments are either a) badly copied ones from Daniel Eran or simply wrong.

 

By the way, calling me a 'MS lover' doesn't help your argument and simply makes you look desperate.

Edited January 5, 2007 by robotskip

[Lostgame]

*loves that robotskip is the only user he's ever blocked on a forum, ever*

[joe75]

Without getting reported or having you think it's a personal attack, I would like to know why every thread you post in starts an argument and why you fell the need to be so arrogant in all your responses and why you feel the need to jump on everyones grammar

Edited January 5, 2007 by joe75

[realfolkblues]

Actually, I do think the Zune can be called a failure. And isn't it funny that Apple is said to have a monopoly only when Microsoft enters the market? Hmm...

 

And yes, I do think I know what this is about, but I really don't have the time to sit and chat to you about it. I believe Apple does not hold a monopoly, just like I believe that Microsoft doesn't have one (although most people think so, hence my previous statement). In economics, a monopoly (from the Greek monos, one + polein, to sell) is defined as a persistent market situation where there is only one provider of a kind of product or service. Monopolies are characterized by a lack of economic competition for the good or service that they provide and a lack of viable substitute goods. - wikipedia. It isn't Apple's fault if other vendors suck. And it isn't Microsoft's fault that Apple hasn't historically made enough sales to sustain itself. (of course, winds are blowing in other directions now...)

 

Finally, your thing about other choices... no. Just...no. Millions of millions of people have spoken, and they all say iPod and iTunes are the greatest.

 

I believe them,

 

Urby

 

I have to agree with you that ipod and itunes are well designed on the software side. But I've had and ipod die on me, and my best friend has had 3 die on him. Were we danceing around like in the ipod commercials? no we were just sitting on our asses. Can somone please fix the hardware in the ipod?

[sandmanfvrga]

Without getting reported or having you think it's a personal attack, I would like to know why every thread you post in starts an argument and why you fell the need to be so arrogant in all your responses and why you feel the need to jump on everyones grammar

 

 

Agreed. I can't stand this guy, why I blocked him. I think he tears others down cause he doesn't like/love himself. Just an observation, not a flame.

[Zealot]

i think they(Apple) just make sure to earn the money they have invested on his product because of course the main feature it is to play music .Other thing is that the apple reason for his aproach to the music world is the money.

About the Drm "scandal" i dont really care , to buy music in these days doesnt seem to be the best way of getting music.That said, i beliebe we shouldn´t give it this kind of attention because we all know music copy/Drm/protection is doomed to be traspased in so simple ways that its almost funny we are talking about this.

Did you notice that im pro-download free songs/movies/games kind of guy?

[Sabr]

It is quite evident that this topic is rolling off its tracks. Members that are taking part in this discussion, please stick to the topic on hand. Any disagreements, opinions, etc, unrelated to this topic should be dealt with through PM's. Otherwise this topic will be closed.

[bofors]

It's a monopoly when you have anti-competitive behavior ...

 

Umm... no. It is a monopoly when you have a monopoly and they are generally legal until anti-competitve behavior is practiced.

 

Monopoly - exclusive control of a commodity or service in a particular market... : http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/monopoly

 

Apple obviously does not have a monopoly on digital music for four reasons:

 

(1) There are many other choices for digital musics players besides the iPod, take Microsoft's Zune for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zune

 

(2) Apple's iTunes Music Store does not have an exclusive position with the music industry. You can buy music online from other places, again Microsoft's Zune Marketplace makes this blatant: http://www.zune.net/en-us/meetzune/zunemarketplace.htm

 

(3) Nothing stopped Microsoft from using an exclusive DRM standard for Zune: http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/zune.ars/3

 

(4) Apple does not control the major standard for digital music, MP3, which of course the iPod plays: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP3#Licensing_and_patent_issues

[Lostgame]

Agreed. I can't stand this guy, why I blocked him. I think he tears others down cause he doesn't like/love himself. Just an observation, not a flame.

 

Hear hear!

[bluedragon1971]

no it doesnt, it uses plays for sure .wav files, .mp3, and other common files, and plays for sure is a type of DRM that microsoft and some other companys got together and designed so that there could be a "standard" increasing compatibility across the board and making a label for consumers

 

You better do some research before you accuse others of not doing theirs. The Zune does NOT use the "Plays for Sure" DRM, but another DRM developed only for the Zune.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plays_for_sure#Criticisms

 

A stir accompanied the release of the Microsoft Zune when it was revealed that the Zune is not compatible with media from PlaysForSure retailers.

[bluedragon1971]

That is how a subscription works, for anything, not just an online music subscription or something offered by Microsoft.

 

Funny, I didn't know that I wasn't allowed to read the magazines I subscribed to after my subscription ran out.

[aberracus]

LOL!!!

[sandmanfvrga]

Good ole robotskip!

 

On this monopoly, I think it is just a bunch of {censored} to take a shot at Apple and the iPod.

[Lostgame]

That's exactly like accusing Microsoft of having an OS monopoly. Even if the Zune was the only competitor.

 

Windows vs. OS X == iPod vs. Zune.

 

The only difference with the OS battle is the losing OS is actually a good product.

[Urbz]

*loves that robotskip is the only user he's ever blocked on a forum, ever*

How do you do this?

 

Agreed. I can't stand this guy, why I blocked him. I think he tears others down cause he doesn't like/love himself. Just an observation, not a flame.

See above.

 

I have to agree with you that ipod and itunes are well designed on the software side. But I've had and ipod die on me, and my best friend has had 3 die on him. Were we danceing around like in the ipod commercials? no we were just sitting on our asses. Can somone please fix the hardware in the ipod?

 

Slightly back on topic, I'm sorry to hear that. Mine have all worked nicely, and all of my friends ave had theirs working properly as well. Except for one, who had his battery die. He couldn't even get through to Apple, it was so complicated. Anyways, he finally was able to sen it in and they got him a new one (there was this whole problem with his iPod not being registered...eesh...). If you're looking for a place to get it fixed, check out iPodMods.

 

On this monopoly, I think it is just a bunch of {censored} to take a shot at Apple and the iPod.

Fully back on topic, I really couldn't agree more. Especially after reading all the proof in this topic, I do believe this is nothing more than jealous competitors. After so many people have explained the definition of a monopoly though, I was wondering one thing: since the problem seems to be that you can't move away from the iPod once you're in iTunes (the ALLEGED problem) [ie you're locked in either way (if you wanna change software, you "can't" and if you wanna change hardware, you "can't")], couldn't Apple blatantly prove that you aren't just buying an iPod, you're buying the iPod and iTunes? I mean, it seems pretty simple, with "iPod + iTunes" all over the place that when purchasing an iPod, I am clearly getting both iPod and iTunes? Even though iTunes is freeware, it's very similar to buying a Mac with Mac OS X (hardware made for software, vice versa) or even a Dell with Windows.

This is why it seems so stupid to me...

 

-Urby

[rollcage]

Well, you can't import DRMed .wma files onto an iPod, but if you want to import an untouched .wma, iTunes will convert it to AAC. I really don't see a problem there, stuff like that is done in a lot of music software. MS should be going to court soon too then, their Zune doesn't allow imports of DRMed songs from even Play for Sure music stores, it all has to come from the Zune store, or ripped CDs (not sure, does it convert AAC? I thought I read somewhere it does). The whole iPod/Zune setup is the same really. For at least once they'll be on the same side.

 

I really don't see the point to this case, music pretty much the same cost everywhere (Apple set the lower prices, the music industry has real control over those). So the cost of media shouldn't even be an issue. As far as songs you've bought, if you get a different player, then burn your DRMed music to a disc and rip them back into your new library.

 

The only thing I think they could make Apple do is to make them open their DRM to allow other players (once the manufacturers of those devices add compatability) to sync with it, but I don't think they'll have to make the iTunes software compatible with other players. They could argure that it would disrupt the performance of the program (BAD FOR THE CONSUMER) because they would have to add drivers for all kinds of devices. And a decision like that would disrupt the whole portable media player market.

 

Both Apple and Microsoft should be left alone, I woudn't call what either one of them has a "monopoly". The consumer can choose what player they want to buy in the first place, and how they get they're media. If they don't like the DRM, go buy it in CD form....

[CLiDE FTW!!1]

Actually, I do think the Zune can be called a failure.

Elaborate, taking note that the iPod also had a slow start.

[Lostgame]

^

 

That was an entirely uneducated statement. The iPod had a slow start because it was essentially the first of it's kind. The Zune is failing because of the iPod's huge name and the essentially limitless competition.

[Jeezoflip]

I dont think the zune is a failure. The problem is, everyone already has an iPod, so why would they just ditch their already working device for the zune. They wouldnt, unless they have a lot of money to throw around and can have both. But most can't, so i think the zune will start picking up when their iPods get old and outdated. Also, i think the zune is a better device anyway. And everyone is so bent out of shape saying, "oh its so thick and clunky". Well, if you ever looked at the first gen iPods....yeah, pretty much the same thing.

 

[CLiDE FTW!!1]

^

 

That was an entirely uneducated statement. The iPod had a slow start because it was essentially the first of it's kind. The Zune is failing because of the iPod's huge name and the essentially limitless competition.

Essentially?

So you're using probability; no fact?

Wow, your post was no more 'educated' then mine.

 

And you can't say that something is failing because it doesn't have the same sales as the top spot.

If that's your logic, then you must agree OSX failed, too.

Edited January 6, 2007 by CLiDE

[A Nonny Moose]

Having a monopoly is not illegal. What is illegal is using that monopoly power to screw people over royally.

 

This is what the lawsuit has to prove--Apple, via the use of the iPod and iTunes Store, has used its market share to royally screw over people. Now for me, I can't see it, but that doesn't mean it never happened (and whining about how the iPod can't play wma files to me doesn't count).

[Gone Like The Wind]

Microsoft not a monopoly? HA! given DirectX to Mac and Linux and see what becomes the dominant platform. Seriously through DirectX alone microsoft holds a monopoly on the desktop due to Games and yes Gamers do make Windows go round you see a exodus of them then all the other puzzles fall into place. I would wager to bet that more people who game would dump windows and go to Mac or Linux given the amount of garbage running in Windows that slows it down hell Wine and Cedega prove it that they can run programs faster than windows.

 

PFFT yeah they do have a monopoly and DirectX proves it with 99.999% of all games being written for computers are in DirectX.

[ACC0RD22]

The only thing I think they could make Apple do is to make them open their DRM to allow other players (once the manufacturers of those devices add compatability) to sync with it, but I don't think they'll have to make the iTunes software compatible with other players. They could argure that it would disrupt the performance of the program (BAD FOR THE CONSUMER) because they would have to add drivers for all kinds of devices. And a decision like that would disrupt the whole portable media player market.

 

I was able to use iTunes to upload songs to my dad's creative MuVo mp3 player. Id say it was fairly compatible with players that arent iPods, even if its not ALL players that arent iPods.

[jgrimes80]

Apple losing this suit, while extremely unlikely, would be a castastrophic legal step in my opinion. Like every other company, Apple wants to beat it's competition. It hasn't done anything (literally) to shut out competitors, but what it has done is simply not help them. Not giving other companies/consumers means to mix and match services/products easily might be percieved as a monopoly, however, I think it's within reason to believe it's within the "competitive nature."

 

It appears to be a monopoly because Apple has so much market share, but what this lawsuit really seems to be about is the "rights" of consumer to recieve "open-source" products.

 

Two examples which I think are similar to this:

 

- Me suing Microsoft for not having an OSX compatible version of OneNote... I want to buy it and use it on my existing licensed OS (OSX) but MS doesn't provide means to do so. Thereby forcing me to buy their OS as well in order to use it... Oh, I also think the MS monopoly lawsuits is/are jokes.

 

- Me being sued for providing technical assistance in manufacturing techniques for only people who are producing products I've designed/created. Plaintiffs argue that in order to recieve my technical service, they are forced to purchase my product...

 

I don't have a lot of market share, but Apple's lawsuit seem to be in parallel... Do I have a Monopoly? I think not...

 

 

again, this is simply my opinion...

[jgrimes80]

Microsoft not a monopoly? HA! given DirectX to Mac and Linux and see what becomes the dominant platform. Seriously through DirectX alone microsoft holds a monopoly on the desktop due to Games and yes Gamers do make Windows go round you see a exodus of them then all the other puzzles fall into place. I would wager to bet that more people who game would dump windows and go to Mac or Linux given the amount of garbage running in Windows that slows it down hell Wine and Cedega prove it that they can run programs faster than windows.

 

PFFT yeah they do have a monopoly and DirectX proves it with 99.999% of all games being written for computers are in DirectX.

 

 

What's to stop games from being developed w/ Open GL? Better yet, a new open-source format? Nothing, just because OTHER companies want to develop their games using Direct8/9/X hardly garners MS as a monopoly. It's no different than paying royalties for broadcasting music/movies

 

or for the rights to use patented technology (<- which is EXACTLY what your example is) That same right which can be denied by the owner at the discretion of the owner

Edited January 6, 2007 by jgrimes80