Israel and Palestine

[gwprod12]

I recognize that neither of the following passages is about murder, and I will not claim that they explicitly or implicitly direct the Christian to do so.

 

Corinthians 10:20-21: He wrote that Gentiles worship devils. In modern terms, they would be considered Satanists: "But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils." Here, Paul writes that the Gods and Goddesses of other religions are actually demons. Christians are to completely isolate themselves from non-Christians.

2 Corinthians 6:14: Paul requires that his followers separate from "unbelievers:" "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

 

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16: Paul directs a blast of religious propaganda against all Jews, blaming all of them for the murder of Jesus. "...ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost." Some theologians believe that "the Jews" had little to do with Jesus' execution. His aggravated assaults in the Jerusalem temple would have been considered an insurrectionist act by the Roman occupying army, and make him eligible for crucifixion.

 

Galatians 1:9 "As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

 

Acts 13:6-11 "...they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Bar-jesus...[who] withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. Then...Paul, filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand."

 

Still working on other references.

 

EDIT: Murder is not "cold-blooded killing", and Killing is not "killing in war".

 

Murder is killing to kill. Murder exists in War. Killing the vanquished foe is murder. Killing those who ask for quarter is murder. Killing when the purpose is not to neutralize as a threat is murder.

 

(This is Old Testament, so it's just an example) When Israel's sons go into the town to kill the people there, that was Murder. Why? Because the town had made pact with the tribe of Israel. They had converted to Judaism, had taken the circumcision, but were taken unawares and killed for revenge.

 

Now, if you want to say that killing in war is not murder, no matter what, even if the war is a holy war of religious cleansing, then what is the difference between what the Quran says about killing unbelievers and that?

 

EDIT 2: mur·der ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mûrdr)

n.

The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

 

EDIT 3:

 

Wow... I never thought I'd get killbot1000 and gwprod12 to criticize my opponents....

 

I do not believe what I believe blindly, and I do not argue against people because I dont like them. Or have disagreed with them in the past. Or will again in the future. My reason guides me.

[killbot1000]

OOOOO burned!

[james2mart]

I see what you're getting at, but nothing in here refers to ripping out the aorta of a nonbeliever...

 

OOOOO burned!

 

killbot1000 try actually arguing and making yourself useful

 

069.044

YUSUFALI: And if the messenger were to invent any sayings in Our name,

PICKTHAL: And if he had invented false sayings concerning Us,

SHAKIR: And if he had fabricated against Us some of the sayings,

 

069.045

YUSUFALI: We should certainly seize him by his right hand,

PICKTHAL: We assuredly had taken him by the right hand

SHAKIR: We would certainly have seized him by the right hand,

 

069.046

YUSUFALI: And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart:

PICKTHAL: And then severed his life-artery,

SHAKIR: Then We would certainly have cut off his aorta.

 

And the verse about being "unequally yoked" refers to marriage. yoked indicates being tied to. I am not yoked to any of my non-christian friends - i can always get away if I need to. The bible also calls us to witness to nonbelievers.

 

"let him be accursed" - other translations use "God's curse" or "curse of God?" Why would we take that into our own hands? We aren't God so we can't curse them like God can.

 

Still haven't seen any commands to murder in here.

 

EDIT: I don't really mean that killing only occurs in war, or that murder doesn't happen in war. By murder, I mean like mugging someone then shooting them to death - thats murder. Killing happens in wars. Like firefights for example. Thats not cold-blooded murder.

[gwprod12]

Yeah, there arent any. I was trying to make that clear before I wrote.

 

I am willing to accept that I may have misstated the new testament. However, there is much religious intolerance in the Christian book.

 

Speaking as a non-religious non-conformist, I have to say that religious intolerance (which I'm probably guilty of too) extends into things like attempting to convert people. Think of it this way. If you dont want the Jehova's Witnesses (assuming you arent one) knocking on your door or accosting you on the street, I think you could understand why I wouldnt want you (or those of similar belief) knocking on my door or accosting me on the street.

 

I guess it all boils down to things that are particularly offensive to others. I dont find swearing or boys kissing boys in public offensive (I do both), though I do find "Witnessing" or whatever to be so. I'm sure you feel the opposite is true. I try to keep my foul language and my predilection for sexually assaulting members of my sex away from Xtians. All I ask is they keep their whatnot away from me.

 

 

EDIT: Based on my understanding and belief about Murder, I agree that mugging and shooting someone is Murder, while mutual combat isnt. However, when your enemy lays down their arms and surrenders, it stops being mutual combat (or self-defense) and becomes Murder when you shoot them.

[killbot1000]

Oh you know ive made plenty of logical arguments, im just tired...so so tired...and I hate my job...my arguing gene is subdued for tonight hehe

[james2mart]

gwprod12 you may find it interesting that I invite Jehovah's Witnesses in for coffee and discuss with them why I believe what I believe, and point them to verses in the bibles they carry that disagree with what they believe, and they run away every time. It's fantastic!!!!

[killbot1000]

gwprod12 you may find it interesting that I invite Jehovah's Witnesses in for coffee and discuss with them why I believe what I believe, and point them to verses in the bibles they carry that disagree with what they believe, and they run away every time. It's fantastic!!!!

 

 

I do the same thing with mormons, except I use science against them, and they run away every time heheh

[gwprod12]

james2mart: I do the same thing.

 

Such as. According to Jehova's Witnesses, there is an upper limit on heaven of 144,000 people. Isnt it statistically probable that all of those slots have already been filled, therefore making my conversion to JW particularly pointless?

 

EDIT: The arrogance of some people, to automatically assume that one of those seats is reserved for you.

[Mebster]

Prophet Mohammad was a living Quran. If the Quran said to kill all non-Muslims he would have and we all would be. I wouldn't back away from it.

 

The Muslims ruled the area for a long time. They didn’t go murdering people even though their numbers grew vastly. Jews lived a very peaceful existence with Muslims on Muslim land and Muslims provided protection. They haven’t got anything so good... almost ever. And these are JEWs. So called enemies. They could have been wiped out. But that's not Islam.

 

And stop posting random quotes without any context to them. Too many mindless people do that. If you have a genuine worry then ask. I’ve already answered similar questions to your previously… and quiet well. They’re all the same.

[james2mart]

Please address the link that I provided earlier that points to multiple areas in the Quran about killing non-Muslims. That link has still not been refuted.

 

And yes, English is my first (and only) language, and you did not quote anything that didn't make sense, so I don't really understand where you're coming from on that part... ?

[wildcat69410]

Damn, I missed all the murdering and killing. Not to worry. A few hundred years later the Christians will show us how it’s really done. Can’t wait.

 

The killings done by the Christians such as the Crusades were guided by misguided men, not by the Bible. Nowhere in the New Testament does it ever mention persecuting and killing of people of other faiths. It does say to avoid them, it does say to try to dissociate yourselves from them and lead a healthy life, but it does not say exterminate them!

 

Yes, the Crusades were a serious mistake, but not caused by Christianity, only men led by misguided people twisting Christianity to their advantage.

[yossicl]

Look, you obviously haven't done your homework at all. All major monotheist religions accept each others existance and admit that the previous prophets are all messengers of Allah so Islam does accept Moses and Jesus as prophets of Allah and their words (bible, torah) as the words of Allah. Additionally, all Muslims are thought to accept that Moses and Jesus are true prophets of Allah. The point is, we Muslims believe that our religion is more refined because it includes all accepted teachings of the previous religions and then some more. It's a simple matter of chronology because Islam stands as the ultimate religion and according to Quran none other will follow it and no other prophet will be chosen after Muhammed, he is the last one and his teachings are the ultimate words of Allah.

 

Simply looking at it from this perspective you should understand why I called Islam more refined than the rest and Christianity more refined than Judaism. If you understand this you should also understand why I implied that it is absolutely unnecessary for a Muslim or a Christian to convert to judaism because they would be ignoring hundreds of years of progress to revert back to a teaching already outdated a couple thousand years ago. Why would anyone want to be a jew if their religion already shows them the right from wrong and in a refined way that took hundreds of years to get to in the first place. It would be like 'stop driving around in cars, lets all ride horses again'...

 

If you are a jew, stay a jew, just don't expect others to convert because there is nothing in judaism that christians and muslims will find that they don't already have in their own faith and that is a fact.

Wrong, Islam doesn't call for killing of the jews and christians, unless you know what you are talking about you shouldn't make assumptions based on what you hear on tv or read on newspapers. Just read the Quran yourself and see if such a phrase that clearly state what you claim, exists. Read it in context if you really want to understand. If you don't want to understand, then it shows clearly that you are a person of prejudice who believes in what he wants to believe and not the truth.

When GOD decided to give his message and goodness to humanity, he choused Abraham then Yitzhak then Jacob then Jacob’s sons to bring the message that there is only one GOD and there will be no other on him.

Then GOD gives to Jacob’s sons (the Hebrew) rules and laws to bring some of them to humanity and some of them only for the Hebrew (GOD decision so don’t ask me way).

All the rules and laws were given by GOD only one time when Moses climb to Sinai Mountain.

(Deuteronomy 12, 1) These are the statutes and the ordinances, which ye shall observe to do in the land which the LORD, the God of thy fathers, hath given thee to possess it, all the days that ye live upon the earth.

 

(Deuteronomy 13,2) If there arise in the midst of thee a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams--and he give thee a sign or a wonder, 13,3 and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto thee--saying: 'Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them'; 13,4 thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God putteth you to proof, to know whether ye do love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 13,5 After the LORD your God shall ye walk, and Him shall ye fear, and His commandments shall ye keep, and unto His voice shall ye hearken, and Him shall ye serve, and unto Him shall ye cleave. 13,6 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken perversion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.

 

Then you say GOD change is mind and he was given Mohammad new rules?

I don’t get it we talk about GOD or what?

Aging, GOD say: “all the days that ye live upon the earth”.

You may say the Hebrew was sin… So GOD the almighty didn’t know that some day they will sin?

So how can it be that GOD the almighty changed is mind?

 

Btw, nobody ask/expect/want you to convert your religion. So I don't know what you’re talking about at all.

[Mebster]

I do. Islam calls for the destruction and murder of all non-muslims, christians and jews alike. It is VERY clear in the Qoran. I take that offensively, but the bible says that this will happen. I do not hate Muslims, I hate Islam. Big difference. Just like I don't hate {censored} people, just homosexuality. The bible says to love your enemies. So while loving homosexuals (sinners), hate the homosexuality (sin).

....

Now your job here is to defend. That is also in the Quran. It says you are supposed to FIGHT me.

This assumption is so ridiculous it’s almost not worth answering. Frankly I’m quiet disappointed with how s**pid it is. Is English not your first language either?

 

I'm only going to give a few examples.

From the very beginning of his mission, the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was violently opposed by his people. At first, the Pagan Arabs simply ignored the Prophet's call and ridiculed his message. They quickly realized, however, that this tactic did not stop the flow of converts to Islam. The Meccans then turned to torture, oppression and the killing of Muhammad and his companions to try to stifle his message.

Some followers fled away with the blessing of the Prophet to other lands where they were given protect (in one occasion to Abyssinia, where the Christian king offered them refuge, an act of generosity that Muslims remember to this day). Mohammed was targeted to be killed and so fled to Medina. However some Muslims still remained in Mecca and were still constantly tortured.

 

A few examples of torture and punishment are:

 

~ Bilal, an Ethiopian black slave, was among the Prophet's most faithful followers, and, because of his faith in Islam, his ruthless master brutally tortured him. At midday when it is scorching hot, his master would make Bilal lie down on the burning hot desert pebbles and sand and put a large and heavy stone on his chest to force him to stop obeying the Holy Prophet of Islam and to worship their idols instead of worshipping the One God. Bilal resisted all his threats and tortures most bravely and admirably and responded just by repeating the word `Ahad' (One), meaning `God is One and Peerless and I will never become an idol worshipper'. The torture ended when a Muslim purchased Bilál and then emancipated him."

 

~ Sumayyah, a Muslim woman (may Allah be pleased with her) was the seventh one to accept Islam. She was also a slave and because they had accepted that no created thing deserved worship, only the creator, her and her husband and son were subjected to physical beatings. Her torturer Abu Jahl became infuriated one day with her soft voice repeating, "There is no god but Allah!" He took a spear and pushed it through her private part, he made Sumayyah the first Martyr. She was the first Muslim to die in the name of "There is no god but Allah!" May Allah be pleased with her. Although it was permissible for the Muslims to lie to save themselves from the torture, you'll see many examples of Muslims who would rather die than surrender their right to believe that only Allah deserved to be worshipped.

 

~ Economic struggle: The Quraysh had started a fierce economic struggle against the Prophet and his followers. One of the inhumane weapons they used against the Muslims was economic pressure and boycott of any sort of transactions with the Muslims. Many Muslims were unable to earn to buy food and so went on hungry or living on very little. Others died.

 

(CONTINUING LATER...)

[yossicl]

I just think religion causes more harm than good. People will rarely do out of the ordinary things, but people are willing to do almost ANYTHING for a religion, and thats a little scary to me

If you go back and read the Ten Commandments (somehow you stick to the first four that you don't like) there’s nothing to cause anyone to harm anyone.

Unless you think to Honor your father and your mother, You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal… is causes more harm than good?

 

When I was saying "You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God" is the main issue of the Ten Commandments.

It’s because we saw and see people using wrongful the name of God to justify/killing/murdering etc. of other people.

It’s cussing people like you to say “I just think religion causes more harm than good” and “people are willing to do almost ANYTHING for a religion”.

Now I hop now you finally understand me.

[killbot1000]

If you go back and read the Ten Commandments (somehow you stick to the first four that you don't like) there’s nothing to cause anyone to harm anyone.

Unless you think to Honor your father and your mother, You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal… is causes more harm than good?

 

When I was saying "You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God" is the main issue of the Ten Commandments.

It’s because we saw and see people using wrongful the name of God to justify/killing/murdering etc. of other people.

It’s cussing people like you to say “I just think religion causes more harm than good” and “people are willing to do almost ANYTHING for a religion”.

Now I hop now you finally understand me.

 

I understand you, but I just dont agree, frankly I think the way you look at the world is wrong, but thats just my opinion.

 

About there being nothing in the 10 commandments to suggest harming another person, maybe you should take a look. When you see commandments like "thou shalt have no other gods before me" will cause people to harm others because they have other gods before him, whether thats the intention or not, its what happens, the 10 commandments are only a moral rulebook for people who have no backbone of their own. It serves very little purpose in my opinion, theres nothing forcing you to follow them or not to follow them, if you think about it, they really dont MEAN anything, they are just confirmation of morals, nothing more.

 

I have my own morals, strong ones, I dont need a tablet from thousands of years ago to know whats right, I have a brain, thats what thats for...

[yossicl]

I understand you, but I just dont agree, frankly I think the way you look at the world is wrong, but thats just my opinion.

 

About there being nothing in the 10 commandments to suggest harming another person, maybe you should take a look. When you see commandments like "thou shalt have no other gods before me" will cause people to harm others because they have other gods before him, whether thats the intention or not, its what happens, the 10 commandments are only a moral rulebook for people who have no backbone of their own. It serves very little purpose in my opinion, theres nothing forcing you to follow them or not to follow them, if you think about it, they really dont MEAN anything, they are just confirmation of morals, nothing more.

 

I have my own morals, strong ones, I dont need a tablet from thousands of years ago to know whats right, I have a brain, thats what thats for...

Most of the people (now and at the bible’s time) have a brain (you can’t say they haven’t), but at the time before the bible was given to humanity, people have no low. People was sacrifice other human, eat human flesh (now people stealing from Apple/Microsoft and they think they moral code is good...) and so on.

 

You may say the same on other humanity rules and low:

Why do I need rules and low? We shell cancel them because every one have a brain so nobody cross the road without obey the traffic sign, nobody steal from other, nobody kill other etc.

 

You have moral code not because your brain.

You have moral code because you’re parents teaching you, because the environment you grow up in to and all the moral codes was coming from somewhere.

 

God give the rules and low not because people don’t have backbone of their own not because they are very little purpose.

People need rules and low otherwise everyone have his own moral code, which they fits to your moral code or they don’t fits to your moral code (it's only point of view).

 

It’s already written: (Genesis 8,21) …for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth…

[yossicl]

Palestinian terrorists using children "shield" against IDF snipers:

children.wmv

 

And more Arab's liars from Lebanon:

http://www.aish.com/movies/JP/PhotoFraud.asp

[u1m2]

 

Palestinian terrorists using children "shield" against IDF snipers:

children.wmv

 

And more Arab's liars from Lebanon:

http://www.aish.com/movies/JP/PhotoFraud.asp

 

 

 

says the guy who apparently has no problem with children being murdered when it's caused by israeli bombs.

[yossicl]

says the guy who apparently has no problem with children being murdered when it's caused by israeli bombs.

Yes I/We have problem!!!

This is the different between Israel and Arabs moral!!!

According to your reply I guess you justify using children "shield" against IDF… This is the Arab's moral…

 

You may fool on people but you can’t fool on GOD...

[u1m2]

You clearly stated that israel is rightful in bombing buildings even if it causes children to lose their lives. israelis know when they strike civilian buildings innocent people will die including children so it's intentional murder on israels behalf, there is no other way to put it. What I don't understand is that how come all of a sudden you pretend to care about the childrens lives, you are such a fake!!!

 

You are also a hypocrite who has no morality, so i rather look elsewhere to find a judge of arab or israeli morality. you are certainly not one to speak of morality considering your whole arguments regarding this issue...

[yossicl]

You clearly stated that israel is rightful in bombing buildings even if it causes children to lose their lives. israelis know when they strike civilian buildings innocent people will die including children so it's intentional murder on israels behalf, there is no other way to put it. What I don't understand is that how come all of a sudden you pretend to care about the childrens lives, you are such a fake!!!

 

You are also a hypocrite who has no morality, so i rather look elsewhere to find a judge of arab or israeli morality. you are certainly not one to speak of morality considering your whole arguments regarding this issue...

Pleas refresh my memory, where did you see one of my previous post that clearly stated that Israel is rightful in bombing buildings even if it causes children to lose their lives?

[mortis]

Pleas refresh my memory, where did you see one of my previous post that clearly stated that Israel is rightful in bombing buildings even if it causes children to lose their lives?

 

 

Yossicl:

 

Even though he despised you, Hitler would be realy proud of what you say and what your people are doing!

 

You sure learned the from Nazism. But I think you guys learned the wrong lesson.

[aberracus]

I will post this AGAIN, cause, i think ppl are discusing ideas, we should discuss humanity here.

 

please download it, its whats happening NOW in lebanon. just photos, real hard photos.

 

im no jew hater neither arab hater, just human.

Israeli_Atrocities.zip

[killbot1000]

While I do agree with humans having their own moral code, I dont believe in anarchy, we do need law and order, but the problem is that morals arent cut and dry, theres almost no absolutes when it comes to morals, I think we run into the most problems when we try to make morals absolutes, the best we can do is what we have been doing, society would have turned out a similiar way without the help of religion. I dont have faith in god, but I do have faith in mankind, to eventually make the right decisions, were a good people, but a misguided people, and I emphasize this, STRICT RELIGIOUS RULES ARENT THE ANSWER. I propose laws be drawn up another way, whenever a conflict comes up, we run a myriad to studies and compare them to see if that act hurts the society or not, and if it doesnt, we allow it, and if it does, we make it against the law. A very simple way to derive laws, better than some idealisms (that I dont share) in a book.

 

 

We wouldnt have to do studies on murder and rape because we can already see that acts such as these DO hurt the society, but when something comes up like Homosexuality, where its a controversial topic, we run some studies and determine whether its a harm to the society or not, and if its not (which it isnt) you allow it. It sounds like a good moral code to me, actual scientific evidence to back up ones morals....maybe im just whacked out of my mind, but I dont think so

[james2mart]

Yes I/We have problem!!!

This is the different between Israel and Arabs moral!!!

According to your reply I guess you justify using children "shield" against IDF… This is the Arab's moral…

 

You may fool on people but you can’t fool on GOD...

 

He didn't justify using children as shields.

 

You clearly stated that israel is rightful in bombing buildings even if it causes children to lose their lives. israelis know when they strike civilian buildings innocent people will die including children so it's intentional murder on israels behalf, there is no other way to put it. What I don't understand is that how come all of a sudden you pretend to care about the childrens lives, you are such a fake!!!

 

You are also a hypocrite who has no morality, so i rather look elsewhere to find a judge of arab or israeli morality. you are certainly not one to speak of morality considering your whole arguments regarding this issue...

 

Why do you always resort to name calling? That appears to be a recurring problem with you.

 

Again, Israel sends leaflets to citizens in areas they are about to bomb. Since Hezbollah camp out in places like schools, civilian casualties are hard to avoid. Hezbollah doesn't send any kind of warning. The initiative is there. Israelis are going about it more correctly than Hezbollah.