munky Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 Damn, i'm really upset that Apple removed that thread. It was a perfect example of someone making a prime idiot of themselves (Stefisun). For anyone wondering why I claimed he was 'pwned', its because I found a post by him on this site claiming to run 10.4.3 on his vanilla PC, thus identifying himself as one of the 'lame PC users' he referred to in his apple.com posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quietglow Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 Not to intrude, but the movement to object is catching on and referencing us here: http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/ And I know you all know this but Apple has a long history of not recognizing problems like this officially. One such example: the original graphite CRT monitors that came with the original G4s were HORRIBLE and failed in droves in our labs after very short periods of time. Apple fixed them and I even got techs to admit on the phone that they were repairing a bunch of them, but the problem was never actually publicly acknowledged. I imagine this has something to do with liability etc. To their credit, they do sometimes come clean: reference the recent ibook mobo replacement not to mention all the battery/charger trade-ins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouch Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 To encourage vocalization about the problem, I wonder if some kind of “I Whined” badge might be helpful? If there are any graphic artists reading this who would be interested in donating your time to whip up a quick graphical badge suitable for web display, let me know. If we can get people to place “I Whined” badges on their sites after calling Apple, then it might encourage others to do the same. I would also be willing to set up a page here dedicated in particular to the whine problem. Then users could have the badge point at that page for more information. I like his thinking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sHARD>> Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 We're working on an official resource kit. Expect it soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacman7331 Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 I'm at the Genius Bar right now... I'm going to show the issue (thermal grease) to them and see what happens... See if they may not repair it or not... MBP 2.0GHz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swad Posted May 8, 2006 Author Share Posted May 8, 2006 His story on the blog is actually really interesting. Everyone who is interested should take a quick read... http://www.red-sweater.com/blog/130/mbp-wash-rinse-repeat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacman7331 Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 they are checking to see if there is any new information about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacman7331 Posted May 8, 2006 Share Posted May 8, 2006 Well I took it in. And they said I already have the latest version of the Logic board, the revison D week 16. The one with the least amount of buzzing and whine (of processor idleing) He also showed me a trick to silence it... which was to simply turn the camera on with photo booth. Then the Processor is working Other than that I asked about the thermal greese issue, they said they didn't have anything to say about it, apple has not mentioned it to their Genius Bar employees at all. =/ I hope they do. Also they said if you brought it in and had a earlier version of the logic board they would indeed install the latest revision for you right there... So they really have been officially adressing the Whine matter. It's just you didn't know it I guess... The Thermal Grease Issue is the only one that hasn't been adressed. So if you want to raise hell raise hell for the thermal grease not the whine (it has been adressed, and they already know about it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swad Posted May 8, 2006 Author Share Posted May 8, 2006 Other than that I asked about the thermal greese issue, they said they didn't have anything to say about it, apple has not mentioned it to their Genius Bar employees at all. Wow, if that's true (and not just a "oh, we haven't heard about that problem" kind of blow-off) that's pretty sad. Does that make them quasi-geniuses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badg2k Posted May 9, 2006 Share Posted May 9, 2006 Hi how were you able to get them to exchange your logic board in the first place? I just want to make sure I say the right things so they'll do it on the spot instead of shipping it to Texas and making me wait for an entire week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swad Posted May 10, 2006 Author Share Posted May 10, 2006 Check out our new resource page (with a downloadable .pdf file for everything you need to know!) http://whine.osx86project.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziglet Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 I'm just curious: Do you actually think Apple gives darn if you overload their tech support for a day? You could overload it every day and they'll just acquire a new call center to deal with you (that would probably be cheaper than replacing every macbook that someone complains about). The processor whines and it runs hot, but if they say it's within spec... uh... it's within spec. You might perceive that the screen is too dim or too bright, but if they are all made that way then you need to either live with it or return the product. I don't know what hippie school of business everyone seems to have graduated from, but if it were my corporation I would do exactly what Apple is doing - which is to note these complaints and then fix them in the next major revision of the product. The people who chose the first runs knew what they were getting into AND if they didn't they had ample time to get out. Nobody forced any of you to buy it. Nobody forced you to keep it past the return date after you saw that the thing ran hot. You say they are MAJOR issues, but no matter what you say, it was worth the 2-3000 dollars to you, otherwise you wouldn't have spent it. For a corporation, your wallet speaks, your mouth is just... an annoying buzzing noise that they learn to live with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
u1m2 Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 I'm just curious: Do you actually think Apple gives darn if you overload their tech support for a day? You could overload it every day and they'll just acquire a new call center to deal with you (that would probably be cheaper than replacing every macbook that someone complains about). The processor whines and it runs hot, but if they say it's within spec... uh... it's within spec. You might perceive that the screen is too dim or too bright, but if they are all made that way then you need to either live with it or return the product. I don't know what hippie school of business everyone seems to have graduated from, but if it were my corporation I would do exactly what Apple is doing - which is to note these complaints and then fix them in the next major revision of the product. The people who chose the first runs knew what they were getting into AND if they didn't they had ample time to get out. Nobody forced any of you to buy it. Nobody forced you to keep it past the return date after you saw that the thing ran hot. You say they are MAJOR issues, but no matter what you say, it was worth the 2-3000 dollars to you, otherwise you wouldn't have spent it. For a corporation, your wallet speaks, your mouth is just... an annoying buzzing noise that they learn to live with. I am an econometry major and what you say is quite incorrect even from an economic standpoint. For a company like Apple which heavily relies on their reputation with their fan(customer)base for sales, it is very important that their customers believe it the quality of their product and the degree of their support in general. Telling people to mind their own business when they receive a product which is clearly "faulty" is a very quick way to lose many future customers which Apple (and other companies) can not afford in a very competitive marketplace. There are hundreds of examples in the computer industry (Abit, a more recent one) when lack of quality/support actually leads to the downfall of a company. In the good old days it might not have been such a big deal but with the interweb a crude reality of our lives today even the most ignorant/indifferent people among us can be exposed to complaints on these products and more importantly exposed to how Apple disses customers off when many of them are legitimately complaining for what they genuinely believe is a "disfunctional" product : A "lap"top pc that you can not put on your lap because of heat, that you can not watch a movie on because of noise actually IS a disfunctional product and it really does not matter if Apple considers it disfunctional or not, it clearly is a product which does not meet the expectations of many ordinary users. At this point it is not important if Apple advertised them as cool and quiet or not, what matters is that if the product hot and/or noisy when objectively reviewed? Say if you bought a TV and it would heat up so much that you had to turn on AC, or bought a fridge that made to much noise that you couldn't sleep at night. Would you still think the customer shouldn't return those products for a full refund because they are not advertised as quiet or cool? I am guessing a big fat NO. Because a product also has to comply with some unwritten/unadvertised specs to ensure proper use of that product by the user. Apple has not misinformed customers but they have certainly failed to supply clear information on how hot and loud the product ran which IMHO is just as bad as misleading. Misleading in the sense that Apple customers believe that they will not get a laptop from Apple that runs too hot or too loud based on prior experience with Apple products which in a way shows their loyalty and belief in the company and it's products. The ball is in Apple's hands now and I believe they will do the right thing which is to ensure an otherwise happy/satisfied consumerbase is kept that way so they will pour more money into the company in the long term as well. You have a valid point in keeping the product passed the return date but can you also be sure on exactly when these problems arised on most MBPs out there. If the problems arised after the return date is past, should it be ok for the customer to be screwd anyway ? Legally you might be right, I got no idea on consumer law of US (assuming that is where ur from) but fortunately some companies think over the long run and are willing to undergo some financial burden to keep their customers satisfied and Apple has been known to be one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swad Posted May 11, 2006 Author Share Posted May 11, 2006 Great response, u1m2. Welcome to the forum, ziglet. Since u1m2 addressed most of your stuff, I'd like to just say that... I don't know what hippie school of business everyone seems to have graduated from, but if it were my corporation I would do exactly what Apple is doing - which is to note these complaints and then fix them in the next major revision of the product. ...is a nice thought, but at this point we have no evidence to support it. Keep in mind that these problems are nothing new, yet in the months since the MBPs were shipped, they haven't been fixed. Many people send in for replacements and get new units with the same problems. They either aren't "noting complaints" or aren't "fixing them" - either way, no good action has been taken. And if the next major revision isn't until September or October? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouch Posted May 11, 2006 Share Posted May 11, 2006 The fact is i doubt Jobs (known for his attention to detail) would consider the whining "within spec" regardless of what his customer service people may insist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziglet Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Say if you bought a TV and it would heat up so much that you had to turn on AC, or bought a fridge that made to much noise that you couldn't sleep at night. Would you still think the customer shouldn't return those products for a full refund because they are not advertised as quiet or cool? I am guessing a big fat NO. Because a product also has to comply with some unwritten/unadvertised specs to ensure proper use of that product by the user. That's just it - I absolutely think they should return them. That was the point of my post. You do not buy a product for what it "should" be, or what it "could" be, or what "we all hope it can be." You buy it for what it is. Lets say I buy the latest Hybrid Camry. I expect that it will run in virtual silence when not using the gas engine. I buy it and find that it makes an annoying electric car whine. I return to the dealership, talk to the service guy who explains to me that that is the sound made by that model at this time, but notes that it is the first model with the brand new engine and the gas mileage is INCREDIBLE. "Unfortunately sir," I say, "This noise is unacceptable. It gives me a headache." After going back and forth endlessly about my expectations versus the reality of the car - him pointing out that the car isn't advertised as silent running and me saying that i have heard other electric cars run quieter and i have a buddy who took his apart and made it run quieter - he eventually gives up, repeats that the car does make the noise and the noise is considered normal for the car. He asks if I am so dissatisfied that I would like to return the car. I say, "Hell no, this is the best frickin' car I've ever had - but I paid 30000 dollars for it, you need to make it run quieter." Who is being unreasonable in this scenario? These guys can go round and round about what's normal or not normal, but in the end the company has control of what it deems normal and the customer has control of his cash. The customer here wants all of the benefits with none of the drawbacks. My advice to him is to buy the product NEXT YEAR. Early adopter + whiner = so so lame. ...is a nice thought, but at this point we have no evidence to support it. Keep in mind that these problems are nothing new, yet in the months since the MBPs were shipped, they haven't been fixed. Many people send in for replacements and get new units with the same problems. They either aren't "noting complaints" or aren't "fixing them" - either way, no good action has been taken. And if the next major revision isn't until September or October? The reason people get units back with the same "problems" is because all of the processors make the whining sound and all of the machines run hot. Apple is just sending them in because customers demand that the issue isn't "normal," when it is normal for this run of MacBook. Believe me when I say that they are noting the complaints and they are fixing them - for the next major revision of MacBook. What you are calling for here is a retroactive fix, which isn't going to happen. Companies don't go back and fix minor first run issues that don't impede normal operation of a product on their dime. It isn't cost effective because the MacBook works just fine. Making it quieter and cooler is just making a good thing better... which is what companies are constantly doing - but not retroactively and not for free. You can say that they should make a retroactive fix because there is value in customer goodwill, but deep down people aren't really that unhappy and Apple knows it. Do you know how Apple knows? Because these people weren't unhappy enough to ask for their 3000 dollars back - and it is only after an orgy of internet complaining that they have gotten worked up enough to take any action at all - which is make a five minute call to a customer support. It's a wonder they aren't shaking in their boots about this "stop the whine" day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swad Posted May 13, 2006 Author Share Posted May 13, 2006 Ziglet, what you're forgetting is that these things are abnormalities, not "spec". I agree with you about the car analogy - it's a good one. Lets see where it takes us... Let's say your entire block buys a Camry. Half (give or take two or three, since we don't know numbers) have annoying noises, constant overheating, etc. The other half doesn't. If you're part of the half that has issues, won't you want the company to fix it instead of taking it into the shop and giving it back to you with the problem unfixed? We know this isn't how Apple meant for the MBP to be - it looks like the quality control of the 17" models is much better (something like the new Camry station wagon not having any issues at all, to further your analogy). It's just sloppy production, and it's not asking too much for them to fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Tizzle Posted May 13, 2006 Share Posted May 13, 2006 MacBook Pro 25" 2GHz, Serial W86131XXXXX, Buzzing problem Called apple support. Told them that I had the "buzzing" problem, that I had until 5/16 to return for a full refund, and that I was trying to figure out if the problem was fixable before I decided whether or not to return my Mac. Tech asked me where noise was coming from. I responded that it's coming from the left side of the main case. He asked me to dim the screen all the way and check for noise. This had no effect on the noise. Tech told me that the noise was due to a faulty inverter, and that I could have it sent in for repair. Would take 48 hrs. to 10 days to receive repair or replacement. I asked the tech if the noise should go away after dimming the screen if it's an inverter problem. He said not necessarily. I then said that I thought the noise was related to CPU usage, as the noise only occurs when there is little load on the processor and goes away when I load an application or load the machine in any other way. He did not respond to me on this. I'm probably going to go ahead and send in the machine. The noise is just too distracting for me to deal with. Hopefully it is an inverter, and hopefully they can fix it. If not, hopefully this will not jeopardize my ability to send it back for a full refund. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigboss Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 Decent is definitely not good enough considering the extra $$$ you shell out to get Apple hardware. If Apple cannot be bothered to make its customers happy, Apple should be out of business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bofors Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 What about "preemptively whining"? I mean, I do not own a Mac Book Pro yet and will probably wait until the Merom verision comes out. Is there a plan for people to whine to the Apple Store's sales team on the phone? Or at least pester them with annoying questions about noise and thermal issues related to the current Mac Book Pro? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouch Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 The purpose is not to pester or annoy apple employees but make any genuine concerns you have known, so if you are considering purchasing a product from apple contacting their sales team and questioning them on the whine issue would be a good way of drawing attention to a problem. I don't know how much success you would have questioning them on a non-existant product though..."Apple does not comment on unannounced products." may be as far as you get! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swad Posted May 14, 2006 Author Share Posted May 14, 2006 Bofors - I had wanted to get one of these MBPs but due to the quality issues I think I'll be waiting until Merom as well. However, I still want Apple to know this, so I'll be calling sales on that day to ask if they're fixing the problem, let them know I'm concerned, etc. Like Ouch! said, we certainly don't want to pester anyone - we just want to express our concern on the issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bofors Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 Nag, nag, nag... I think you guys are using a *special* definition of "pester". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigboss Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 Nag, nag, nag... I think you guys are using a *special* definition of "pester". Well if you pay for a piece of hardware and it does not work or you notice something wrong with it, you have the right to call the manufacturer and demand that they fix it. Call it pester/nag/whatever, it is justified (especially when people shell out 2700 for a laptop). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Tizzle Posted May 14, 2006 Share Posted May 14, 2006 I called tech support today and asked to be transferred to a supervisor. I was transfered to Steven, to whom I explained my problem. I explained that the previous tech had diagnosed the problem as a faulty inverter, and that I thought the problem was with the CPU. I described the whining CPU issue, and asked him to acknowledge that this was a problem. He would only say, "I've heard of that, yes." I then asked Steven if he could guarantee that sending my laptop in would fix the problem. He said that if there is a faulty part, it would be diagnosed and replaced. I then asked him if I could return my MacBook if they were not able to repair the whining processor to my satisfaction. He said no. I then stated that I would like to return my MBP. He transferred me to returns. I talked to Eric in returns. He was very helpful and authorized me to return my MBP for a full refund. It seems that Apple has advised all of its employees not to acknowledge that the whining issue is an actual problem. What really pisses me off is that they would waste my time by diagnosing and "repairing" a problem that doesn't actually exist on my machine (the inverter noise). Are they just trying to get me off of the line? Are they hoping that I'll get so frustrated that I just give up and live with the whining? Are they hoping that they'll burn enough time that my money-back-guarantee period will pass? Either way, it's super-laime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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