End The Whine Day - May 20th

[apolloae]

I'm hearing a lot about the whine and such, but does this also apply to the new 17 inchers? Looking into getting one, but I want to make sure it doesn't have these problems!

[firebush05]

Wow. Don't you think you might be over reacting Mash? Sure, the Macbooks have a few annoying problems, but they are still the best damn laptops on the market, period. Nobody is perfect.

[pianoman]

All this will accomplish is longer-than-normal hold times waiting to speak with an Apple support specialist. Good thought though.

[rogabean]

All this will accomplish is longer-than-normal hold times waiting to speak with an Apple support specialist. Good thought though.

 

 

That was my other thought... not only will something like affect the nerves of tech support, it is also going to affect people calling in for tech support not related to this. I feel bad for the one person who really needs something on their Mac fixed for something very important... and ends up waiting 2 hours on hold.

 

smells like bad karma to me... maybe everyone should phone into a set of non technical support Apple numbers?

[Chris Law]

I'm in too.

[Swad]

Wow. Don't you think you might be over reacting Mash? Sure, the Macbooks have a few annoying problems, but they are still the best damn laptops on the market, period. Nobody is perfect.

 

They certainly are great laptops - we're not denying that. The problem is that Apple released them before the quality was good enough then assumed we'd buy them anyway. Then, after 2-3 months of complaints about 2 specific issues, they've done nothing 1) to fix it and 2) to help the people who have the problem (many have gotten repairs - few have worked and solved both problems).

 

Then a few days ago we get word that part of the heating issue may be related to a simple misapplication of thermal paste, one of the basic production steps. As far as the whining goes, as you'll see in another post I made about it, it appears that part of the OS just isn't finished yet. I'll admit that they don't have to be perfect, but should these issues be fixed for a $2-3000 machine? Yes.

 

You wouldn't settle for buying a new car and having it make loud noises and overheat all the time. We shouldn't settle for it just because we're fans of Apple.

 

All this will accomplish is longer-than-normal hold times waiting to speak with an Apple support specialist. Good thought though.

 

You speak as though you know. That's like saying all that Martin Luther King accomplished was longer-than-normal traffic jams.

 

It will accomplish a lot more than just long wait times - it brings attention to the issue, which really is the key. If users keep buying MacBooks without complaining en masse, what message does it send to Apple? That the issue really isn't that big of a deal.

 

This guy shared his experience in the Apple forums:

 

"Just got off the phone with Apple and was basically told to go f#$k myself. I told them about the whine and the problems I was having and they told me that it is not defective and if i returned it I would be subject too a 10% restocking fee. I tried to explain to them how lots of people on the forums are having the same problems as I am and there response was "we don't pay attention to the forums." Nice to see that Apple is paying attention to there customers."

 

I feel bad for the one person who really needs something on their Mac fixed for something very important... and ends up waiting 2 hours on hold.

 

Yeah, I do too - that's why I hope Apple will at least address the issue before May 20th. But if they don't, we'll simply be catching them up on all the calls they should have gotten the past 3 months.

 

I'm in too.

 

Great!

[happywaffle]

Folks, this is not a good idea. Apple is very well aware of both the heat and the noise issues, and bugs have been filed with a high priority. Apple is also aware of how many MBP owners are affected - they don't need a call from each one.

What would be the benefit of all calling on the same day, as opposed to calling in at your convenience? Either way, you let Apple know that your MBP is having the issue, and Apple can take action on it. The only thing to be gained by all calling in on a single day is to sabotage Apple's support line, resulting in long wait times for everyone, yourself included. Not a good way to show your support for the company. And accomplishes ZERO different than if everyone called in on their own time. (Stop comparing yourself to MLK!)

Definitely call AppleCare about this issue, because they ARE aware of it, and they DO have steps they can take with you. Just, do it at a time of your choosing.

[Stealth43]

HELL THE MOTHERf*** YEAH!!!

[Swad]

Folks, this is not a good idea. Apple is very well aware of both the heat and the noise issues, and bugs have been filed with a high priority. Apple is also aware of how many MBP owners are affected - they don't need a call from each one.

What would be the benefit of all calling on the same day, as opposed to calling in at your convenience? Either way, you let Apple know that your MBP is having the issue, and Apple can take action on it. The only thing to be gained by all calling in on a single day is to sabotage Apple's support line, resulting in long wait times for everyone, yourself included. Not a good way to show your support for the company. And accomplishes ZERO different than if everyone called in on their own time. (Stop comparing yourself to MLK!)

Definitely call AppleCare about this issue, because they ARE aware of it, and they DO have steps they can take with you. Just, do it at a time of your choosing.

 

If they're aware of the issue, why haven't they issued a fix? If its high priority, why have they told affected users that its "within spec?" If it's that big of a deal, why no official word from Apple? It seems like you're basing this all on assumptions when the evidence would seem otherwise (unless you're really Steve in disguise... which would be pimp... )

 

I would highly recommend that people call at their convenience. By all means, go ahead and call. But if we haven't gotten any kind of solution by May 20th, they need to hear from all of us.

 

You ask why its important to do it all on the same day. It's for the same reason that a march on the Mall in DC gets more attention than individual people writing their congressmen. Numbers attract attention, which is the point here.

 

I'm not saying what we're doing is in the same league as MLK, but he understood that nondestructive protest - with a lot of people - was an effective way to get a message across.

 

Apple has so far proved unwilling to address this problem and as such we need to let them know where we stand.

 

BTW, welcome to the forum.

[pianoman]

I have put an official bug report in as a developer, and lo and behold... it's a duplicate. It's almost like Apple knows about it. Chances are, it's a hardware problem. Does this mean the unit is defective? No. Does this mean the product does not perform as specified? No. Does Apple advertise anywhere that the machine "runs silently"? No. Because of this, Apple has no obligation to replace all of these MacBook Pro's for free. This is much like the Revision A PowerBook G4 12" when people complained about the excessive heat. Apple never gave official word on the matter, and replaced some units while they didn't replace others, much like this. Guess what though, Revision B..the problem was gone. If fixing the problem will require a change in the logic board design or new parts, they will wait for the next revision. I'm not saying that this is necessarily right, but it will be fixded, it's merely a matter of when.

[Swad]

That's a good point about Revision B, Pianoman. Except that we're on Rev. D here. 3 chances to fix it (not to mention the initial release), none of them taken.

 

Also, the thread that I was following about this topic on the Apple forums was just deleted. It seems they're not a very big fan of encouraging people to call about the issue.

 

EDIT: This guy has a new MBP and his got up to 140F at one point (measured with a laser temp gauge). That's hot enough for 2nd degree burns!

[pianoman]

By Revision B, I meant a major, announced change. I understand your point, but for most major overhauls (which this fix may very well require), the update is announced.

[neuman]

I have a iMac Intel 20" 2.0ghz, 2GB ram, 256mb vram and have not had one issue. I ordered this system the day apple released it on a tuesday (macworld) that night, once I got home from work I placed an order. It took about a week and a half to get the imac as it was a custom order.

 

Since I have gotten the system I have not had one issue. I have had a few PPC software issues which made my system act odd, but after uninstalling the software it went right back to running flawless. When I awake it from sleep mode, I have no lag or nothing. My system runs cool and normal.

 

I do feel for the ones who are having issues tho with there macbook pro. This issue with be solved so don't worry about it. Apple will not leave you guys hanging without a fix as you have a standard 1 year warranty and you can purchase a 3 year extended warranty which will include them fixing your system.

 

For the ones who are having issues, I would take it down to the apple store or phone support and request it to be repaired. I have seen others posting pictures of there gpu and cpu paste not being applied right. All you need to do is request apple via phone or store to remove the gpu and cpu and apply the paste correctly which will lower the heat on the system. I'm not to sure about the keyboard buzz issue, but it could have something to do with the heat issue and causing it to buzz, does this happen all the time or only once the systems running for a bit?

[regularg0nz0]

I can understand if Apple wants to ignore the problem and claim that everthing is within spec. I can understand that they are under no legal obligation to fix this problem.

 

And I can understand that if this is how they decide to operate their company in 2006, then I won't be purchasing my planned 17" from them.

 

You see, it has nothing to do with legal obligation at this point. Apple has set a standard in the past for excellently preforming hardware, and has been able to set a price-point to match. If they stop living up to that reputation, then they are going to lose sales. (mine, for one)

 

The mass call on the 20th has nothing whatsoever to do with clogging up their tech support center. It's marketing. The press will get ahold of it, and the non-forum-heads out there will then be aware of both Apple's quality problems, and their refusal to acknowledge them. Sales go down. Stock price goes down. Bad for Apple.

 

What's the solution? Live up to the reputation that these machine owners have already paid for, and not received. Or turn into Packard Bell.

 

The ball is in their court, now.

[Swad]

You see, it has nothing to do with legal obligation at this point. Apple has set a standard in the past for excellently preforming hardware, and has been able to set a price-point to match. If they stop living up to that reputation, then they are going to lose sales. (mine, for one)

 

The mass call on the 20th has nothing whatsoever to do with clogging up their tech support center. It's marketing. The press will get ahold of it, and the non-forum-heads out there will then be aware of both Apple's quality problems, and their refusal to acknowledge them. Sales go down. Stock price goes down. Bad for Apple.

 

Brilliantly put.

 

On May 20th:

 

On the big day, we'll be having a special event on irc.macspeak.net to tell our stories of calling Apple Support. Hop on for some good laughs and interesting experiences of just a few of the thousands who are planning to call.

 

Also, if you're not a current MacBook Pro owner but are considering getting one, I would encourage you to call Apple Sales on May 20th and ask about the heat and whining. See what they tell you (I have a pretty good guess). Let them know that you are concerned about the issues before buying one.

 

With all of us working together, we can be heard. It's our only chance for getting things accomplished.

[pollycat]

As well as calling technical support and sales about this, how about also "flooding" the online forum at www.apple.com?

 

http://discussions.apple.com/forum.jspa?forumID=1149

 

This could be done by each person who owns a problematic machines starting a new thread simply listing their problems. Each thread called have the subject "Apple - do something!" or something like that.

 

Of course, the moderators will delete these threads as fast as they are posted, but keeping them busy hunting down and deleting these threads might also alert them that this is a real problem. Just another "signal" to Apple that MBP owners really take these problems seriously.

[Swad]

Lol pollycat - that's not a bad idea, although there are already a TON of threads on this topic. If you have an issue, I'd encourage you to post it there, but I'm sure it's pretty clear to them that, on the forum, there is a problem.

 

I'm just so amazed that with so many different people commenting on it already, we haven't heard anything. Crazy.

 

Anyway, I wrote an update on the status of this initiative and a few justifications here:

http://www.osx86project.org/index.php?opti...id=182&Itemid=2

[Vlad the Compiler]

Words cannot even begin to properly and accurately describe my reaction to this idea, as someone who's been in the tech support field for going on eight years, now, both in low-level, senior tech, and management capacities. However, I shall try to make my point plain without devolving into flamethrowing.

 

I can understand wanting to make the problem known... however, the problem IS already known. These things take time to research, test, and develop fixes for, so that when a fix is finally released, it doesn't cause more problems. This applies to any manufacturing process, from computers to cars to mechanical pencils. All the companies ask for is some patience, and Apple has been better than most at saying, "Okay, yeah. There's a problem, we're working on it."

 

On the flipside, Apple is also a huge media target. It seems like when Steve decides to go to the bathroom, it turns into a major news event. With that in mind, I can certainly comprehend wanting to wait until the facts are certain before making any statements or press releases, because we all know what happens when the facts get released, and later proven wrong. The company, no matter who it is, gets crucified by public opinion, largely by people who have no more comprehension of the true issue at hand than a tadpole could have of how to fly a jet fighter.

 

Given that, I think a little slack is called for.

 

This 'call-in' day you are proposing is nothing short of childish. It is nothing more than a scream for attention, and it will do nothing more than overload Apple's call centers and make the lives of their employees extremely difficult as they try to cope with the overload, AND have to deal with the other users who are displaced in the queue and whose own lives and issues will be made more difficult as a direct result of your actions, should you follow through on this plan.

 

You claim to be striking a blow for the Mac community. Well Mr. Mash, you are actually striking a blow against it by doing this. Apple is already aware of the problem, and your attempt to "strong-arm" them into taking action that you decide is correct smacks of the worst sort of extortionist tactics, and only decreases the reputation of the Mac community as a whole. I especially look forward to the cries complaining about the hold time when the irony is that the people complaining are the very individuals responsible for said hold time in the first place. It's mob mentality, and that by definition is not representative of how most Mac users, myself included, prefer to present themselves. It sends the message that we are a group with an overbearing need for instant gratification, and an overblown sense of entitlement, and that we don't care who gets hurt as long as we get what's "ours."

 

I think this is an alarmingly bad idea, and I encourage all of you to avoid following through on it. If you feel a need to call in, then call in at a time of your choosing. The information gets to the engineers and designers either way, and if it all comes in at once, there's a higher chance that something critical may be missed, thus hurting the cause. Spacing the reports out provides for the opportunity to investigate more in-depth, and will potentially decrease the amount of overall time required to isolate the issue and fix it reliably.

 

In any case... that's my two cents on the topic. I realize my view may be an unpopular one, but I ask that you at least consider it in an objective light before reacting.

 

-VtC

"The Revolution Will Not Be Outsourced."

[Swad]

Vlad-

 

Thanks for your well-reasoned and thoughtful post. Welcome to the forum.

 

I can understand wanting to make the problem known... however, the problem IS already known. These things take time to research, test, and develop fixes for, so that when a fix is finally released, it doesn't cause more problems.

 

Very true. But is it really expecting too much to seek a "Hey, we're working on it" kind of memo? I really don't think so. Plus, how do you know the problem is known and being worked on?

 

All the companies ask for is some patience, and Apple has been better than most at saying, "Okay, yeah. There's a problem, we're working on it."

 

I would be very happy if they did this. But, as of right now, they haven't.

 

On the flipside, Apple is also a huge media target. It seems like when Steve decides to go to the bathroom, it turns into a major news event. With that in mind, I can certainly comprehend wanting to wait until the facts are certain before making any statements or press releases, because we all know what happens when the facts get released, and later proven wrong. The company, no matter who it is, gets crucified by public opinion, largely by people who have no more comprehension of the true issue at hand than a tadpole could have of how to fly a jet fighter.

 

Agreed, they are a media target. But while they may get crucified by public opinion, they are also made saints in that same court of opinion. The reason Apple generally gets a favorable treatment in the press is because they pay attention to quality and detail. Is it too much to ask that they continue this? It seems that if they start getting bad press, it will be because they have let down their guard.

 

This 'call-in' day you are proposing is nothing short of childish.

 

Hmm... can't agree with you on this one. Most of the MBP owners I've talked to have been very patient with Apple and their replacements/fixes. Yet in many cases, the problems still go unaddressed. Is it childish to stand with other affected MBP owners and send a message at the same time? No, it just makes them be heard louder.

 

And you're right, it is an effort to get attention. At this point, we don't know that Apple has done anything to address these issues. At all. We haven't heard anything authoritative. All evidence actually points the contrary with denials and shoddy hacks abandoning.

 

You claim to be striking a blow for the Mac community. Well Mr. Mash, you are actually striking a blow against it by doing this.

 

I surely hope not - that's honestly my worst fear about this. However, the more I've thought about it, the more I realize this isn't the case.

 

Let's take the case of the Nano screens. It actually affected smaller population than the MBP issues, but users complained and Apple addressed the issue. If they wouldn't have said anything, nothing would have happened. It's the same here - if we don't speak up, nothing will get fixed.

 

And at this point you'll say "they can call on their own at their own timing." True. But they've been doing this for 3-4 months. Any word from Apple? None. They haven't taken it seriously up until now. We need to make sure they actually do.

 

Since past calls haven't done it, maybe this one will. I hope so.

 

The information gets to the engineers and designers either way, and if it all comes in at once, there's a higher chance that something critical may be missed, thus hurting the cause.

 

Or it helps them realize the magnitude of the problem. A tsunami is much more noticable than a few drops of rain.

"The Revolution Will Not Be Outsourced."

 

I hope it'll be fixed in house, but at this point, I'll take however we can get it.

[Colonel]

I was planning to get a Macbook Pro for school. Should I still call Applecare on the 20th? And since I don't have one yet, what should I say to them? If they ask me questions about it, I won't really be able to answer them. What should I say to them?

[Swad]

colonels1020 -

 

Call the Apple Store and ask them about the heat and whining issues. Ask them if anything has been done to fix it, etc.

 

That still lets them know you're concerned.

[liquidm3dia]

I'm in. Also I am starting this. The DNS has yet to resolve so use this for now

 

www.STOPTHEWHINE.com

 

I want to work with all the sites here, including OSX86Project. I want this issue fixed just like all of you.

[cbd2]

Just found this site because of the 'Whine Day' proposition that is certainly made some headlines on many Mac boards... and as the owner of three Intel Macs, this looks as if it could be a nice hang out.

 

But on to "End the Whine Day" - I have two MacBook Pros: one an early shipping 2.0GHz and the other a 2.16GHz that I received less than a month ago. Neither has any whine, moo, excessive heat (the hottest case point measured has been just above 105º - more than acceptable), nor have I experienced any other hardware problems... so I don't feel that I can, in good conscience, participate in calling Apple to complain on May 20th as my experiences have been, well, just routine - the machines operate as they should.

 

But for those who are having problems, it is a fine idea, I suppose, but I feel as if there should be a precise goal involved in the action - simply filling up Apple's phone lines (and being on hold for, potentially, hours) isn't going to be enough: Apple is more than aware of the problems that some users are experiencing and the problems have been mentioned in virtually all reviews that I've read, correctly pointing out that the problems are not inherent in all machines (to which I can attest). So what would I like to see were I the owner of a faulty machine? Pretty simple - a public statement from Apple (no WSJ or NYT full=page ad but a tech note, a mention that a particular software update "may alleviate X, a problem which some users are experiencing", a published list of 'within range' specifications (noise, temperatures, etc.), and a definitive statement that all units that have problems that exceed these specifications and that cannot be fixed via software or firmware updates will be repaired or replaced.

 

So what's the most that can be hoped for? Continued repair and replacement, to be sure (I've read of one user going through four units before getting one which was acceptable) but a bit more - a Knowledge Base article listing the problems, what is and is not 'within spec', updates which have been released to aid in alleviating the problems, and instructions on returning your computer to Apple for repair or replacement.

 

I think that - other than the problems themselves - the major beef has been a lack of acknowledgment of the problems from Apple. A KB article, and a link to that article (such is as done with faulty batteries, etc.) on Apple's Support page is, I think, the best that can be expected. My fear about the mainstream press picking up on the campaign is that it could result in faulty reporting that goes beyond implying that every MBP suffers from the whole gamut of whining, mooing, heat, etc., problems. One article I read today spoke of Apple's reputation as being the leader in making notebooks with 'exploding batteries' (a reference, I'm supposing, to the few batteries which caught fire in pre-release 5300 series notebooks - but a 'hot story' can be expanded into legend).

 

For those o you who join in the campaign, good luck: and I hope you don't have a long wait time. I won't be calling as I've no complaints and I'm hoping that there will be no calls from those who don't actually own problematic MBPs but simply 'know' that some users are having problems. We may never know the percentage of problem MBPs vs. those that are problem free - only those who have dealt with Apple would have been recorded - but I also fear that many are playing too many unnecessary guessing games regarding percentage to total sold, weeks of manufacture that are bad and those good, that replacing thermal grease will cure all heat problems, etc.

 

Apple hasn't helped rampant this speculation by remaining quiet. For those of you who raise your voice on the 20th, perhaps you'll get Apple talking.

[Swad]

Welcome to the forum, cbd2. Thanks for your post.

 

You're absolutely right - this isn't just about clogging phone lines. I think callers should ask a few specific questions:

 

1. Where on Apple's website can information be found about the heat and whine issues? If they say it's not up, ask why and request that it be posted.

 

2. Ask what solution they suggest while it is still under warranty.

 

Also, callers should also remember to be kind and considerate of the tech person on the other end... and also not take too much of their time.

 

Anything else we should consider?

[Swad]

Haha...

 

So I deleted MACPRO's posts because they were bascially just name calling instead of holding any kind of rational argument. Then the person who responded to their posts deleted his own posts. So I deleted this post which was originally in response. All within 3 minutes. Very odd time to try and mod.

 

If you've got a logical point to make, feel free. If you register just flame, don't feel so free. Thanks.

 

We welcome discussion. Not flaming.