The Dumbing Down of osx86

[Running With Scissors]

If that was the case we would all be using command line operating systems with no gui.

 

I want an easy life if something can be done with a few clicks on a pretty gui rather than entering in reams of text you would be mad not to use it.

 

Of-course if a simple option is not available try more advanced methods.

 

Yes people need guides someone new to osx86 hearing words like EFI, ICH7 and SSE3 are not going to have a clue what they mean.

 

Lighten up and help people out, you never know maybe one day you will need help.

[Alessandro17]

Lighten up and help people out, you never know maybe one day you will need help.

 

Trouble is, people don't search, don't read the wiki, start the same topics all over again, they can't ask (how can I help you if I have no clue about your hardware?) and they don't seem to understand a simple fact: OSx86 won't work on every hardware.

[fatshitcat]

(..) and they don't seem to understand a simple fact: OSx86 won't work on every hardware.

100% agreed. I mean I built my system for running OS X on it.

[PainWarlock]

When i went into linux (first before osx86). I had to learn alot of things which thank goodness i still know now. my hole hard drive is devoted to ubuntu(quite sad) and the other computer i have is devoted to ipcop.

 

I wanted to try arch linux, so I could really get down and dirty. But I couldnt because my dad needs a "gui", anyway when I had first started linux. I didnt even know how to accept the eula for java and set the locales i was copying pasting all kinds of commands, until finaly i came across trying to play some games and destroyed my X11 :-/.

 

It was a bloated little bugger, ubuntu ultimate edition 1.3 when it updated over 1.3gb was installed took up 60 gig of my hard drive aswell. As in this flavour of ubuntu was {censored}

 

I became a windows fanboy bcus of all the {censored} i had with linux. ROFL

 

I then went back to ubuntu 2 years ago. I started trying other linus's aswell. I started getting extremely good with terminal commands and looking after networks with ipcop. I started playing with server distros.

 

I then came across osx86 i looked at it and said to my self hmmm. I might have to learn what the terminal language is, cus i had no idea about apples products. I found out it was bash and i was like omfg ran to a torrent site looked at my hardware and said ok im going to tripple boot osx86 on my computer i put the disk in i then learnt about my graphics card not supported and the audio but that was fixed with a kext and a little package.

 

I used the knowledge i learnt from linux. I even found a driver making page and was about to make a driver for my gpu but i had to reformat the hd :-/

 

But i must say thank you to this community and the gnu*nix communtiy aswell it has been great and im not going to stop.

 

I am being interviewed at a major company next week for learning all that I have learnt. I wouldnt have done it without you guys. so thank you

[MacUser2525]

when i went into linux first before osx86 i had to learn aloty of things which thank goodness i still know my hole hard is devoted to ubuntu and the other computer i have is devoted to ipcop i wanted to try arch linux so i could really get down and dirty but i couldnt because my needs a "gui" but anyway when i have first started linux i didnt even know how to accept the eula and set the locales i was copying pasting all kinds of {censored} until finaly i came across trying to play some games and destroyed my X11 :-/ it was a bloated little bugger anyway ubuntu ultimate edition 1.3 when it updated over 1.3gb was installed took up 60 gig of my hard drive aswell i learnt from that but for a while i became a windows fanboy bcus of all the {censored} i had with linux i then went back to ubuntu 2 years ago i started trying other linus's aswell i started getting extremely good with terminal commands and looking after networks with ipcop i started playing with server distros i am now being interviewed at a major company for server operator thank you linus torvalds

 

Hopefully there is no writing involved in the interview...

[french squared]

well written, sorry if I am a pain.

I do actually try to search the forum first.

I always know my hardware, but I still ask some of the same questions.

 

Thank You all for doing the hard stuff for me.

[martin15s]

way to go Hagar - this could be a stickie??

[bofors]

But would you agree with me that a couple of years ago it seemed to be clear to everybody that if you were serious about running OS X you'd buy supported hardware only?

 

While that may have been clear to you and I, it certainly was not to others and I suspect that Jas in particular would still argue against you here.

 

There have almost always been two OSx86 camps:

 

( A ) People who want to run OS X on the PC hardware they already have.

 

( B ) People who want want to build perfect Hackintoshes.

 

 

Unlike most people in the early OSx86 scene, I was strictly a Mac user. I did not own a PC per se, only Macs. It took me awhile to be convinced that building a Hackintosh was a good idea for me too, in fact I was seriously considering a Quad G5 before I made the decision to go ahead and make the switch to x86 ahead of the Apple schedule. Even then, I thought my first Hackintosh would be merely a transitional tool, something I used until Mac Pro's were available. Obviously, OSx86 technology has come a long way since then and I now am fully committed (however, I still intend to purchase only Apple laptops).

[Chris Mills]

Awesome thread Hagar from a relative n00b who makes mistakes, then tries to work out WHY things have gone wrong rather than just be a "whiny little {censored}".

 

Yes some people want it all on a plate. Well to those guys I have some news. By and large IT IS... there is a search function on this forum.

 

Most of your questions have already been answered.

 

If they haven't then ask away, but provide some detail. Be prepared to be told "it isn't compatible"

 

If you are getting a KP that you don't understand, boot with -v and provide a screen dump.

 

Look for your hardware and provide vendor and device IDs. If you have a dual boot system with Windows, then Boot into Windows and look in device manager. Then look at the HCLs. Is it there? If not be prepared for being told it isn't compatible. If you want to prove them wrong, start looking at kexts. But be prepared for a lot of heartache getting it to work.

 

If you don't have Windows, download a knoppix CD and refer to the above paragraph using lspci.

 

OSX86 when you have it working fully is awesome. But half the fun is getting there. You can be a n00b and use it, however be prepared for a steep learning curve, and always ensure you have some kind of backup OS until you are completely happy and know what you are doing. If you want a trouble free installation of OSX, then save and buy a Mac. You then have all the tech support you need.

[vbetts]

That's right! You gotta learn how to do it!

[socal swimmer]

all the noobs on IRC that i have encountered seem like retarded noobs that dont know anything, and usually its somewhat true at first. As i walk them through, though, they seem to pick stuff up and by the end i think they know what they are doing somewhat.

 

 

well there was also earlier today, when i got in an argument with a mod because i disagreed with him. lulz.

 

 

tl;dr: be easy on them, the noobs are usually willing to learn

[Chris Mills]

tl;dr: be easy on them, the noobs are usually willing to learn

 

Some are, and those n00bs normally receive help because they provide information about what they have tried and about the results of what they have done. Those people certainly get help and don't generally get abuse.

 

Those that expect everything to just work and don't do their research deserve all the abuse they get.

[MacUser2525]

Some are, and those n00bs normally receive help because they provide information about what they have tried and about the results of what they have done. Those people certainly get help and don't generally get abuse.

 

Those that expect everything to just work and don't do their research deserve all the abuse they get.

 

They don't deserve abuse if they will not listen to good advice then they deserve to be ignored if they continue and become a nuisance ban them.

[justvisiting]

me so dumb

you so smart

you feel smarter by making me feel so dumber!

 

 

is this what its about ?? sad

 

if the cycle of "someone's behavior -> your response" is affecting your life, only YOU can control your response. there are more important things in life.

[alyosa2001]

I'm sorry to say Hagar and all others, but what are you trying to say? did you unfold the mysteries of the computing science? did you invent the transistors, did you write the software, did you build the hardwares, did you draw the interfaces all by yourself ?

I suppose you must have done it, and so have all the people agreeing with you, in which case case i say "WOOOOOOWW", you DO HAVE the rights too keep all the INFO to yourselves, do not answer questions, but then again, NEITHER ASK!

[MacUser2525]

I'm sorry to say Hagar and all others, but what are you trying to say? did you unfold the mysteries of the computing science? did you invent the transistors, did you write the software, did you build the hardwares, did you draw the interfaces all by yourself ?

I suppose you must have done it, and so have all the people agreeing with you, in which case case i say "WOOOOOOWW", you DO HAVE the rights too keep all the INFO to yourselves, do not answer questions, but then again, NEITHER ASK!

 

I believe the point most of us are trying to make is to people asking the questions are list the hardware in your machine, post the steps you have taken that has got you to this point, don't ignore good advice when given, in general show you have made some effort to solve the problem yourself and don't post a "my computer won't boot" type of question with absolutely no other information given...

[ephydrid]

"How to ask questions the smart way" is available at http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html and really should be required reading for anybody who wants to post a question in a technical forum. Probably most of us already know the info provided just based on our common sense, but it is nice to see it presented formally.

 

I am a complete n00b when it comes to osx86, but my reason for getting into it is because I want to get my hands dirty and learn more about how everything works. I have a nice fast apple-branded mac that I can use for running vanilla osx, but I want to learn more about the ins and outs of how it all works, and I definitely enjoy challenging myself with learning new things, so it seems osx86 will be a great hobby for me.

[SA22C]

I've been tinkering with this stuff for a couple of years now and I remember complaints like this when the first JaS images starting emerging. That's not to say that they aren't without some merit, but the dumbing-down comment has been made about almost every trend that starts out exclusive and slowly becomes accessible to the mainstream. There is a level of enthusiasm and development here today that would never ever be possible without that kind of engagement.

 

OSx86 is better off today because of the greater interest by the public at large, not worse.

[m82a1]

to Hager: hell yeah, well said, <other positive comments you can think of>

i can not even find where to start to talk about of such events amongst friends where their ways of fixing stuff was just to re download whatever it was they needed, or "oop a small error, no worries, i'll get my reinstall cd / dvd" where i was always the one who took the time to research (www.google.com IS your friend) whatever problems i've had, be it in Linux, Windows, Mac, pc hardware, whatever.

[Konami®]

I completely agree Hagar, I am also tired to see noobs who don't know anything but the first thing that they want to know is how to install OSX86? I am like many people in this forum not to answer any stupid question. READ THE DAMN TUTORIAL AND WIKI SECTIONS and stop posting useless and already answered questions.

[ZoroLives]

Wow, some hostility there. I have been working hard at understanding all the terms. I have been researching and researching (and researching some more), I am almost complete with my buying list. Here is what I would like to contribute to this thread,

 

Not everyone understands all the terms used here. For me the first time I started using bash commands in the terminal I was a bit intimidated. But I came to see that, as long as I was shown an EXACT correct spelling, it really was easy to do. What I would love to see is a simple guide - not simple in programmers thinking, simple to help the beginners and save the programmers from frustrating questions again, and again. Naturally some will never learn but, I do wish there was a simple dictionary started, or perhaps one already exists, to explain carefully each term used for hacking purposes.

 

It would also be useful, IMHO, if no explanation referenced another obscure term without an explanation as to what that other term was and especially how they work in context.

 

I still know little about what comes next so I Cant really give a useful example but the general idea might be. kexts. These are strings of data, lines of code, whatever. They look like this (example) They are usually found in these locations (List some or all) They are normally used by Apple in such and such rearguard (what is their purpose), The reason they are important in adapting the OSX system to other hardware is that in the process of booting, the kexts need to be read usually after the bios check, or at the every start or ...

 

To sum what I am saying, it would be helpful to me to understand more about the terms used and the context of how the whole process works.

 

I have no doubt that once I order my system I will be able to download enough things to get it working. Thanks to this forum community for that confidence. Right now I wish I Had a better grasp on the terms and the process of changing the bios, overclocking, etc.

 

I hope in posting this I have contributed to a useful discussion and not opened myself to flaming. Doing my best and trying to help.

[iHack13]

right...

 

then here is "what I'd like to contribute"

I'm acutally not professional in any way and I'm not trying to be either. I'm just really trying hard not to be a noob and distance myself as far as I can from that attitude.

 

I'm not trying to speak in the name of others, but from what I can say, I barely learned stuff from Definitions.

It always needs some time and effort. If you get into it, you get to know it. Thats my attitude on this. Not more and not less.

 

Dunno how to explain it else. I just can't start off anything with Definitions... Only learning them by heart and playing them back like a casette recorder in order to impress people and raise one's attitude is just like cheating at school wihtout getting any profits from it (where did I read this )

 

Roll up your sleeves and get ready to make your hands dirty.

[ZoroLives]

That's OK. What I am trying to say can get very philosophical very quickly, and that doesn't usually endear me to others. :censored2:

 

Suffice it to say that not all of us think alike. Left brain vs right brain, Myers Briggs personality types, whatever ... I am OK with some not wanting definitions. But, I am suggesting that for some, perhaps even many of the incessant question askers (I ask questions too as I am a total beginner), it might make the terrain less terrifying - which automatically makes the brain have more horsepower for actually thinking and less shutting down out of fear (fight or flight takes real brain resources).

 

As for me, I am going for it anyway. It's just a little easier for me if I had a clue about the parts I was trying to put together. And please note, I have not yet downloaded the info to get ready for the install - still finishing a question on the video card. So all of this may be soooo frigging easy that this is really a dumb question. I hope not but apologies if so.

 

Again, just trying to widen the scope of understanding here.

[alexb17]

If people ask stupid questions, just ignore them. They'll either just quit or they'll figure out themselves just by searching on google or on the forums. That way, the ones that do stay are the ones that really want to put some time and effort into this .

 

I don't think osx86 is dumbing down, on the contrary. A lot of talented people are creating really amazing stuff here! I've been using different versions of OS X for two years now, and the quality of the releases has improved a lot. I'm actually amazed at the work some people put in just to help others. I've never had a problem that I wasn't able to fix with just a bit of effort in searching the forums; that's because people put the effort in sharing their knowledge. And for that I am grateful!

[walterav]

Hi,

 

All of you are making a very good point in this thread, in the end a reductionist view of the osx86 thing is as simple as 1 2 3 and you're finished.

"Bootloader", Extensions "decrypter + drivers/injectors/disablers", some "post patches".

Or 1 'get it to install' 2 'get it the boot' 3 'fix other stuff'.

Or Hardware/BIOS/Software.

For a lot of pc users very important/understandable steps in the old day's. Especially when your old windows 95/98 performs better when re-installing ones a month. Xp maybe needed a re-install half a year or around the year, maybe never...

 

But here comes the problem you already mentioned. It is more like a paradigm. The whole MAC/OS easy vs PC/WIN difficult is interfering so much with each other that they are somehow unable to link for most of the wannabee users.

Although the organization of the OS is almost the same. Every OS has some kind of kernel with modules, drivers, inputs outputs layers/stacks/frameworks/libraries, that needs a routine of installing and maintaining. But the "mental process" of the person behind it is changing a lot, when just using the OS, and not thinking about all the background, back-end stuff that happens, not needing to re-install anymore, or less-often. This is not only a OSX related thing. But OSX is a easy example... Ubuntu is getting there also, if your lucky with the hardware

 

Mac users can in someway forget a lot more routine, understanding, where stuff needs to be put in the OS and why than other PC users. "I'm not saying that they can work better on their MAC's without this knowledge, they can learn alot to ;-)" Things are getting simplified year after year, a lot of us don't even know where or how to find a book in the library or local book store. The google phenomena is only making it stronger/worsen. Although very pc-like is adding extra hardware to a mac, also needs a extra driver, but in snow-leopard apple with add drivers just via software update, otherwise you'll end up with a lot of drivers on the machine without using it. So this is also getting easier.

There are people that only know how the find something in their MAC even on their network of MAC'S just by using "Spotlight" and "Recent Items". Finding 'apps', files, folders, utilities or even 'sytem preferences' this way.

I was totally shocked that my dad with a lot of real macs and almost 15 years of mac and pc experience got this far. He's not the only one.

 

I was even more shocked that using a OSX for more than a year, 'I' was moving in the same direction.

After years of organizing and building structures and routines to make, find, and repair stuff, in the end I just start searching my stuff in 'spotlight' to. Like a google nightmare. Almost not knowing anymore where it is on the machine, and just asking 'spotlight' with some crazy algorithm to magically find my stuff... than I might put a backup somewhere and next time start working with the file with the newest, date / recent item info that comes up in 'spotlight'. So in some way understanding to get osx86 needs a kind of organization, but when finished and using osx86 you might and up with total chaos "and it even works!!!". I cannot even come up with a valid argument anymore for structuring a lot of stuff...

 

Especially if you see yourself learning all this stuff, hours, day's, months of work. Putting a lot of time and effort in something, that might only overcome a lot of people only a couple of times in a lifetime. Installing/reinstalling from a crash... So all this learning chatting on the 'insanelymac forum', just for getting the first step of a Operating System right... get it to run, after that just use it. After that it may just rott away in your brain for the next time it happens, the next time will be a new routine new patches and new learning. The thing I just want to highlight, is that in someway you spent alot of effort in something/understanding, even though the goal of the project is to THINK LESS/THINK DIFFERENT. So you might end up with alot of knowledge that is not gonna be used for a long time. Or the info might even be useless for a very long time and it is useless unless you help others with it. Also lot of people just have their nerd friends to fix pc stuff, or make their pc's hackint0shed "most of them like it that way".

 

This is general trend in stuff, google is a good example, but just try think about organizers/PDA/GPS navigation/ TOMTOM-navigation, microwave-food, globalization , in the end a lot of us get SO dumb, that they can only {censored} on the toilet when it's listed in their organizer...

Or maybe wrong this is just Evolution, if the brain doesn't need to think anymore about some stuff, you are left with more mental processor power for other stuff to think about. Like what Screensaver will I use today on my MAC. Maybe computers a just getting more like the human brain, not that structured, but more scattered mapping of data... cloud computing?

 

To lower the failure rate of other osx86 newbies "Insanelymac newbies".

JUST STRIP the forum, to three or max five categories, but not like tons of forums with sub-forums. Even I get lost where I post my stuff in which forum/sub/sub/sub forum, I'll just google it back!!! WHAAAHAAA

 

Only things that need organization or structuring are already self selecting entities, the rest will fail... but its okay...