Israel and Palestine

[gwprod12]

That's an excellent point consolation, about the Roma.

 

[Cher] "They call us Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves..."

[yossicl]

You are kidding right? Every HUMAN being on the planet has exactly the same length of history to them; ~200000 years ago we diverged from Homo Erectus and wandered out of Africa. Then we meandered around the planet encountering a lot of {censored} on the way, till we came to be where we are. Saying that one group of people has less of a history is, lets be polite, delusional. It's entirely beside the point anyway, the UN agreed on Israel's border after WWII, much as it agreed on new borders for France, Germany, Russia, Poland and a host of other countries. Everyone has a historical claim on someone else's backyard but, for the sake of getting along, everyone has learned to live with the facts. Israel and China are the only countries which completely occupy their neighbors, Palestine and Tibet respectively. Before 1947 there was NO state of Israel (in antiquity the area was a collection of warring tribes and petty kings), it was created by other nations for the jewish people. So, let go of this...

Every human maybe. The Palestinian NO!!! They have no history as a nation becuse there is/was no Palestinian nation. Pleas go back and read what I’ve been wrote on WHAT DOES "PALESTINE" MEAN?

 

Before 1947 there was NO state of Israel??? Are you trying to invent new history???

 

Brief History of Israel and the Jewish People:

The people of Israel (also called the "Jewish People") trace their origin to Abraham, who established the belief that there is only one God, the creator of the universe (see Old Testament). Abraham, his son Yitshak (Isaac), and grandson Jacob (Israel), are referred to as the patriarchs of the Israelites. All three patriarchs lived in the Land of Canaan, that later came to be known as the Land of Israel. They and their wives are buried in the Ma'arat HaMachpela, the Tomb of the Patriarchs, in Hebron.

 

The name Israel derives from the name given to Jacob (see Old Testament). His 12 sons were the kernels of 12 tribes that later developed into the Jewish nation. The name Jew derives from Yehuda (Judah) one of the 12 sons of Jacob (Reuben, Shimon, Levi, Yehuda, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Yisachar, Zevulun, Yosef, Binyamin). So, the names Israel, Israeli or Jewish refer to people of the same origin.

 

The descendants of Abraham crystallized into a nation at about 1300 BCE after their Exodus from Egypt under the leadership of Moses (Moshe in Hebrew). Soon after the Exodus, Moses transmitted to the people of this new emerging nation, the Torah, and the Ten Commandments. After 40 years in the Sinai desert, Moses led them to the Land of Israel, that is cited in The Bible as the land promised by G-d to the descendants of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

The people of modern day Israel share the same language and culture shaped by the Jewish heritage and religion passed through generations starting with the founding father Abraham (ca. 1800 BCE). Thus, Jews have had continuous presence in the land of Israel for the past 3,300 years.

 

The rule of Israelites in the land of Israel starts with the conquests of Joshua (ca. 1250 BCE). The period from 1000-587 BCE is known as the "Period of the Kings". The most noteworthy kings were King David (1010-970 BCE), who made Jerusalem the Capital of Israel, and his son Solomon (Shlomo, 970-931 BCE), who built the first Temple in Jerusalem as prescribed in the Tanach (Old Testament).

 

In 587 BCE, Babylonian Nebuchadnezzar's army captured Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple, and exiled the Jews to Babylon (modern day Iraq).

 

The year 587 BCE marks a turning point in the history of the region. From this year onwards, the region was ruled or controlled by a succession of superpower empires of the time in the following order: Babylonian, Persian, Greek Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine Empires, Islamic and Christian crusaders, Ottoman Empire, and the British Empire.

 

After the exile by the Romans, the Jewish people migrated to Europe and North Africa. In the Diaspora (scattered outside of the Land of Israel), they established rich cultural and economic lives, and contributed greatly to the societies where they lived. Yet, they continued their national attachments and prayed to return to Israel through centuries. In the first half of the 20th century there were major waves of immigration of Jews back to Israel from Arab countries and from Europe. During the British rule in Palestine, the Jewish people were subject to great violence and massacres directed by Arab civilians or forces of the neighboring Arab states. During World War II, the Nazi regime in Germany decimated about 6 million Jews creating the great tragedy of The Holocaust.

 

In 1948, Jewish Community in Israel under the leadership of David Ben-Gurion reestablished sovereignty over their ancient homeland. Declaration of independence of the modern State of Israel was announced on the day that the last British forces left Israel (May 14, 1948).

 

..."all the countries are persecuting us," yes european countries treated jews poorly in the past but no worse than gypsies, muslims or homosexuals. In fact Europe treated everyone who wasn't white and Christian like {censored}; no need to feel special about it.

Actually if you really want to feel persecuted look at the history of the roma people...

You are obviously lost the point hear…

How can we trust on other country to support/defend Israel while in almost all the Jews history they tried to annihilate the Jews and just because they was/are Jews and nothing else???

[consolation]

Every human maybe. The Palestinian NO!!! They have no history as a nation becuse there is/was no Palestinian nation. Pleas go back and read what I’ve been wrote on WHAT DOES "PALESTINE" MEAN?

 

Before 1947 there was NO state of Israel??? Are you trying to invent new history???

 

Brief History of Israel and the Jewish People:

 

Every human maybe. The Palestinian NO!!!

 

You sir, are either taking the {censored} or are a complete FASCIST. The irony would be quite funny if it wasn't rather sad and tragic. Nah... It's still funny...

 

Most of your history lesson is not based on any factual evidence. For example you know that there is no evidence for the Exodus from Egypt etc.. You'd think if that many slaves took off there would be some inscription somewhere. Please do not mix up your religious mythology with actual History.

 

Yes there was a period of Israeli control from about 1000-722 BCE, a period of less then 300 years. But, on a global scale the kings of Israel were, well, petty - as in small and rather insignificant. As can be seen by their absorption by larger empires. Don't feel offended most kings, tribal chieftains, whatever, on the planet were small and insignificant compared to the imperial powers of the time. And, yes the "Israeli" culture emerged from the caanite about 1500BCE or so & there has been a continuous jewish presence there. BUT, as an independent state israel has not existed for something like 2700 years, till 1947CE.

 

So all in all you have just as much rights to a state in Palestine as do the Palestinians. (Whom, you apparently do not consider HUMAN, making this whole discussion rather pointless, and you a total fascist twerp)

 

There is no God, you are not her chosen people, get over it and stop going postal on your neighbours.

 

P.S. the name Palestine comes from the Roman name for their province. It's the standard name used in English for the geographical area. It is different from Israel which is a political identity.

[yossicl]

You sir, are either taking the {censored} or are a complete FASCIST. The irony would be quite funny if it wasn't rather sad and tragic. Nah... It's still funny...

 

Most of your history lesson is not based on any factual evidence. For example you know that there is no evidence for the Exodus from Egypt etc.. You'd think if that many slaves took off there would be some inscription somewhere. Please do not mix up your religious mythology with actual History.

 

Yes there was a period of Israeli control from about 1000-722 BCE, a period of less then 300 years. But, on a global scale the kings of Israel were, well, petty - as in small and rather insignificant. As can be seen by their absorption by larger empires. Don't feel offended most kings, tribal chieftains, whatever, on the planet were small and insignificant compared to the imperial powers of the time. And, yes the "Israeli" culture emerged from the caanite about 1500BCE or so & there has been a continuous jewish presence there. BUT, as an independent state israel has not existed for something like 2700 years, till 1947CE.

 

So all in all you have just as much rights to a state in Palestine as do the Palestinians. (Whom, you apparently do not consider HUMAN, making this whole discussion rather pointless, and you a total fascist twerp)

 

There is no God, you are not her chosen people, get over it and stop going postal on your neighbours.

 

P.S. the name Palestine comes from the Roman name for their province. It's the standard name used in English for the geographical area. It is different from Israel which is a political identity.

1250 BCE to 587 BCE = 663 years and not 300 years...

And pleas don't put things that I’ve never said that "Palestinian people are no Human" this is a lie (Yes they are acting like monsters but they are still human) and sorry to say that but you are total fascist twerp and big liar because you expel from the knot.

 

And Yes there Is a GOD you already admit it by saying "you are not her chosen people"...

[consolation]

1250 BCE to 587 BCE = 663 years and not 300 years...

And pleas don't put things that I’ve never said that "Palestinian people are no Human" this is a lie (Yes they are acting like monsters but they are still human) and sorry to say that but you are total fascist twerp and big liar because you expel from the knot.

 

And Yes there Is a GOD you already admit it by saying "you are not her chosen people"...

 

Israeli Kingdom was not unified till about 1000BCE under David, until then it was a collection of separate tribes. Tribes that were just as likely to battle each other as anyone else. In 925CE the kingdom split into two due to a civil war after the death of King Solomon. In 722BCE Assyrians capture the northern kingdom, 586BCE the Babylonian Empire under Nebuchadnezzar captures the Southern Kingdom. Even if you allow till 586 thats 414 years. Not that it matters, the point is that there has not been an Israeli state for over 2000 years.

 

You said "Palestinian people are no(sic) Human" when you claimed that Palestinian people don't share the common history of 200000 years that every member of the Homo Sapiens species has. Your exact words were

Every human maybe. The Palestinian NO!!!

 

How am I a facist? My argument is that all people are equal and have equal rights, yours is that you are superior to others.

 

I

"expel from the knot"

err... ok is that like a Yiddish proverb or something?

 

And no, I do not admit there is a god; I was paraphrasing your apparent position.

 

Honestly yossicl, don't you see how much damage the occupation is doing to your countries reputation and your own people? Want or not, you are affirming all the prejudices of every jew hater out there. Your artillery just yesterday killed dozens of innocent civilians; that's brutalizing both Palestinians and Israelis. To cope you are starting to think of your neighbours as less then human. An obvious coping strategy, but is that the kind of society you want to have to live in?

 

 

P.S. I forgot there was a brief period of Israeli independence 165-63BCE (only 2069 years ago) when following the Maccabbean revolt jews took control of most of Palestine, killed of the Hellenist jews (those that worshiped the Greek Gods), and re-established the Temple in Jerusalem. I think Hanukkah may have something to do with all that...

[yossicl]

Israeli Kingdom was not unified till about 1000BCE under David, until then it was a collection of separate tribes. Tribes that were just as likely to battle each other as anyone else. In 925CE the kingdom split into two due to a civil war after the death of King Solomon. In 722BCE Assyrians capture the northern kingdom, 586BCE the Babylonian Empire under Nebuchadnezzar captures the Southern Kingdom. Even if you allow till 586 thats 414 years. Not that it matters, the point is that there has not been an Israeli state for over 2000 years.

 

You said "Palestinian people are no(sic) Human" when you claimed that Palestinian people don't share the common history of 200000 years that every member of the Homo Sapiens species has. Your exact words were

How am I a facist? My argument is that all people are equal and have equal rights, yours is that you are superior to others.

 

I err... ok is that like a Yiddish proverb or something?

 

And no, I do not admit there is a god; I was paraphrasing your apparent position.

 

Honestly yossicl, don't you see how much damage the occupation is doing to your countries reputation and your own people? Want or not, you are affirming all the prejudices of every jew hater out there. Your artillery just yesterday killed dozens of innocent civilians; that's brutalizing both Palestinians and Israelis. To cope you are starting to think of your neighbours as less then human. An obvious coping strategy, but is that the kind of society you want to have to live in?

P.S. I forgot there was a brief period of Israeli independence 165-63BCE (only 2069 years ago) when following the Maccabbean revolt jews took control of most of Palestine, killed of the Hellenist jews (those that worshiped the Greek Gods), and re-established the Temple in Jerusalem. I think Hanukkah may have something to do with all that...

No, I said "They have no history as a nation becuse there is/was no Palestinian nation" I didn't said "Palestinian people don't share the common history of 200000" and this lie from a fascist liar.

"To cope you are starting to think of your neighbors as less then human. An obvious coping strategy"

You took my quote out of context and this is {censored} I've never said that or think like that.

 

Regarding the "occupation" despite Israel's withdrawal from Gaza the Palestinians continue to relentlessly launch Qassam rockets at Israeli towns with the intent to kill.

So “occupation” (also big {censored}) is not the Palestinians cause to kill Innocent Israeli citizens.

 

While Palestinian Qassams missiles fall at random on Israel and could kill anybody, the IDF targets buildings where racketeers hide. People die!

Regrettable! Who has been threatening Israel with annihilation for the last 60 years?

The Arabs are harvesting what they have planted. Your opinions are irrelevant and, very often, naive.

[consolation]

No, I said "They have no history as a nation becuse there is/was no Palestinian nation" I didn't said "Palestinian people don't share the common history of 200000" and this lie from a fascist liar.

 

Read through your posts; and if you are going to call me a fascist please justify why, or at least try to insult me with something that makes sense. How about "pinko-aethist arsehole" at least that would make some sense; right now you sound a bit like you are foaming at the mouth. Honestly dude, play the ball not the man... The Palestinians have just as much history as you do, the point is every human being does.

 

"To cope you are starting to think of your neighbors as less then human. An obvious coping strategy"

You took my quote out of context and this is {censored} I've never said that or think like that.

 

I'm glad, although I must say, that's what your posts come across like.

 

Regarding the "occupation" despite Israel's withdrawal from Gaza the Palestinians continue to relentlessly launch Qassam rockets at Israeli towns with the intent to kill.

So “occupation” (also big {censored}) is not the Palestinians cause to kill Innocent Israeli citizens.

While Palestinian Qassams missiles fall at random on Israel and could kill anybody, the IDF targets buildings where racketeers hide. People die!

Regrettable! Who has been threatening Israel with annihilation for the last 60 years?

The Arabs are harvesting what they have planted.

 

Piece of {censored}, home-made, rockets that hardly ever hit near the target and don't actually kill many people. Mostly fired for propaganda purposes to stop the Palestinian side looking powerless. Like I said before, exactly the same tactics Israelis used when they were trying to liberate Palestine. Don't complain if you are going to be occupying another country, it goes with the territory (territory...get it...)

In a couple of minutes IDF shelled a row of civilian houses and killed more civilians then Qassam rockets ever did. Your President was just on the news apologizing to the rest of the world for it, maybe he could do the same to the 3 year old kid with her arm blown off.

 

Two wrongs never made one right. But, while Israel is the aggressor, it has no moral right to complain.

 

Your opinions are irrelevant and, very often, naive.

 

Obviously my opinions don't matter as I have no direct influence; yours do as you can vote for who represents you in the knesset. Before you do, I hope you wipe the spit of your chin and think about what kind of a country you want to live in.

 

It's a {censored} situation. Even if Israel suddenly decided to comply with all the UN resolutions, pulled back to it's border and dismantled all the illegal settlements; it would probably still get the odd attack by some extremist. However, at least your country would retain a bit of Honour and self respect. Then, and only then, you have a right to complain and the world has a responsibility towards Israel's security.

 

I will let others judge my naivete.

[yossicl]

Read through your posts; and if you are going to call me a fascist please justify why, or at least try to insult me with something that makes sense. How about "pinko-aethist arsehole" at least that would make some sense; right now you sound a bit like you are foaming at the mouth. Honestly dude, play the ball not the man...

I will not continue with that nonsense because what you are is your problem not mine...

The Palestinians have just as much history as you do...

No they have not. They have no 1/3500 period of history comparing to the Israeli nation and they have no rights on Israel land.

I'm glad, although I must say, that's what your posts come across like.

Piece of {censored}, home-made, rockets that hardly ever hit near the target and don't actually kill many people. Mostly fired for propaganda purposes to stop the Palestinian side looking powerless. Like I said before, exactly the same tactics Israelis used when they were trying to liberate Palestine. Don't complain if you are going to be occupying another country, it goes with the territory (territory...get it...)

In a couple of minutes IDF shelled a row of civilian houses and killed more civilians then Qassam rockets ever did.

"Piece of {censored}, home-made, rockets that hardly ever hit near the target and don't actually kill many people" already killed people.

For you "many people" its nothing for us its all the word.

For one dead Israeli body they get thousand of captive terrorists and that's because the Arabs have nothing with sanctity of life at all... its all mummery for the news and for the public opinion.

Your President was just on the news apologizing to the rest of the world for it, maybe he could do the same to the 3 year old kid with her arm blown off.

It's not our President it's our Prime Minister and he is totally idiot and corrupted man and I hop he will fall ASAP (I didn't vote for him).

Two wrongs never made one right. But, while Israel is the aggressor, it has no moral right to complain.

Obviously my opinions don't matter as I have no direct influence; yours do as you can vote for who represents you in the knesset. Before you do, I hope you wipe the spit of your chin and think about what kind of a country you want to live in.

 

It's a {censored} situation. Even if Israel suddenly decided to comply with all the UN resolutions, pulled back to it's border and dismantled all the illegal settlements; it would probably still get the odd attack by some extremist. However, at least your country would retain a bit of Honour and self respect. Then, and only then, you have a right to complain and the world has a responsibility towards Israel's security.

 

I will let others judge my naivete.

O.K.

[consolation]

It's not our President it's our Prime Minister and he is totally idiot and corrupted man and I hop he will fall ASAP (I didn't vote for him).

 

I really do think it was your president, Moshe something or other... you know, the rape guy. That's why I was surprised to see him, thought he was in jail or something.

[oregano]

And for your information this is what Islam says about life.

 

"You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors." (Qur'an, 2:190)

 

"O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by GOD, and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors." (Qur'an, 5:87)

 

"If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient." (Qur'an, 8:61)

 

"... if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them." (Qur'an, 4:90)

 

"You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder; he will be helped." (Qur'an, 17:33)

 

Well, Islam also says this:

 

"You shall strive for the cause of GOD as you should strive for His cause. " (22:78).

 

"You shall prepare for them all the power you can muster, and all the equipment you can mobilize, that you may frighten the enemies of GOD, your enemies, as well as others who are not known to you; GOD knows them. Whatever you spend in the cause of GOD will be repaid to you generously, without the least injustice.If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient." (8:60-61)

 

Definition of Jihad:

1. Islam. An individual's striving for spiritual self-perfection.

2. Islam. A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels.

3. A crusade or struggle: “The war against smoking is turning into a jihad against people who smoke”

 

Notice the repetition of striving for God, war, and going against non-believers.

I'm not an idiot, I understand that not the entire Muslim religion believes in the terms of Jihad, but I know enough do to make the headlines every day. Every time I check my e-mail, there is always some news about the latest terrorist bombings in Iraq or Afghanistan or Israel. And I know that these are all Muslim extremists/Jihadists who are killing for their religion and what they think is right. Here we have today's news:

As you can see, many Muslims and Israelis and Americans are dying as a result of the Jihad. That is probably the only problem I have with the Muslim religion, besides its vast history of anti-Semetism.

You might say Iraq is different from Israel, but the concept of suicide is the same. And it just has to stop if life is going to get better in the Middle East.

 

 

Secondly the statement, "was always jewish holy land-for 3,000 years" is not always. "Always" is at the start of time. And anyway, do I or the next non-jew give a monkeys if they had it 3000 years ago? They got their asses kicked off it and it was only given back when they begged hard enough that someone (UN) actually felt sorry for them. If it wasn't for the UN you would still be someones ...

And yeah yeah yeah.. God works in mysterious ways. Wooooooo (please)

 

"Israel is the very embodiment of Jewish continuity: It is the only nation on earth that inhabits the same land, bears the same name, speaks the same language, and worships the same God that it did 3,000 years ago. You dig the soil and you find pottery from Davidic times, coins from Bar Kokhba, and 2,000-year-old scrolls written in a script remarkably like the one that today advertises ice cream at the corner candy store."

 

Well, I could certainly argue this: Look now, Israel belongs to the Jews again. It might have been the U.N. that "officially" gave Israel back to the Jews, but almost every believing Jew would agree that it was truly God's doing. But if you don't want into that, I won't. I'll just give you facts.

 

The Jewish people originated around the time of Abraham, in c.a. 1800 B.C.E.

Abraham, his son Isaac, and his grandson Jacob (Israel), are referred to as the fathers of the Jews/Israelites. All three of the original Jewish males lived in the Land of Canaan, that later came to be known as the Land of Israel.

 

Joshua conquested Israel in c.a. 1250 B.C.E. After these conquests, a period known as the "Period of Kings" started. King David and his son King Solomon were two of the most famous kings in Israel.

 

587 BCE, Babylonian Nebuchadnezzar's army captured Jerusalem and destroyed the temple built by Solomon. The Jews never had control of Israel again for over 2400 years. The Persian, Roman, Byzantine, Arabic, Mamluk, Ottoman, and British Empires, along with the Crusaders, all had control of Israel during different points in this time period.

The Jews' great temples were destroyed again and again, and the Jews were exiled and persecuted over and over in this time period.

It may seeem that I am only showing a one sided view, but all I said was true. And the other side of the story? Well, rich Roman, Persian, Byzantine, etc., rulers wanted control and power of more and more land!

 

Here is the entire timeline since Nebuchadnezzar took Israel:

587 BCE Babylonian Destruction of the first Temple.

 

538-333 BCE Persian Return of the exiled Jews from Babylon and construction of the second

Temple (520-515 BCE).

 

333-63 BCE Hellenistic Conquest of the region by the army of Alexander the Great (333 BCE). The Greeks generally allowed the Jews to run their state. But, during the rule of the king Antiochus IV, the Temple was desecrated. This brought about the revolt of the Maccabees, who established an independent rule. The related events are celebrated during the Hanukah holiday.

 

63 BCE-313 CE Roman The Roman army led by Titus conquered Jerusalem and destroyed the Second Temple at 70 CE. Jewish people were then exiled and dispersed to the Diaspora. In 132, Bar Kokhba organized a revolt against Roman rule, but was killed in a battle in Bethar in Judean Hills. Subsequently the Romans decimated the Jewish community, renamed Jerusalem as Aelia Capitolina and Judea as Palaestina to obliterate Jewish identification with the Land of Israel (the word Palestine, and the Arabic word Filastin originate from this Latin name).

The remaining Jewish community moved to northern towns in the Galilee. Around 200 CE the Sanhedrin was moved to Tsippori (Zippori, Sepphoris). The Head of Sanhedrin, Rabbi Yehuda HaNassi (Judah the Prince), compiled the Jewish oral law, Mishna.

 

313-636 Byzantine

 

636-1099 Arab Dome of the Rock was built by Caliph Abd el-Malik on the grounds of the destroyed Jewish Temple.

 

1099-1291 Crusaders The crusaders came from Europe to capture the Holy Land following an appeal by Pope Urban II, and massacred the non-Christian population. Later Jewish community in Jerusalem expanded by immigration of Jews from Europe.

 

1291-1516 Mamluk

 

1516-1918 Ottoman During the reign of Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent (1520-1566) the walls of the Old City of Jerusalem were rebuilt. Population of the Jewish community in Jerusalem increased.

 

1917-1948 British Great Britain recognized the rights of the Jewish people to establish a "national home in Palestine". Yet they greatly curtailed entry of Jewish refugees into Israel even after World War II. They split Palestine mandate into an Arab state which has become the modern day Jordan, and Israel.

 

 

What on earth is the load of ass wipe about Israel not illegally occupying Palestinian land? You been in a cave with Bin Laden? gwprod12 has explained this clearly enough and so I’m not going to get involved. But I’m surprised you write before you think.

 

Does it still seem wrong that after their land constantly changed hands, they finally got it back?

And besides, the British gave the Jews the land. It was British land, they decided what to do with it.

The Arabs destroyed Jewish temples and took their land. Today, they bomb the Jews and murder them every where. It is not the other way around. Even if the Jews had never set foot in Israel, they deserved it because of all the persecution they've withstanded over 3,000 years.

Finally, freedom is alloted to the Jewish people, and people like you, aceplayer, are complaining that they don't deserve it? That is ridiculous. You just don't seem to be able to open your eyes and realize they deserve this land, and they need it as well.

[Mebster]

This topic isn't about Islam so I will try and keep this brief. Also I haven’t read all of your post yet.

 

The quotes from the Qur'an you have posted (if they are genuine – I haven’t confirmed yet) are wonderful quotes.

 

Muslims strive for God every day as they try and do what God is pleased with. We pray 5 times a day and these prays (especially the morning (fajr)) can be tough on some. We fast for a month with no food or drink during daylight hours. Striving for the causes of God also means to help those (muslim and non-muslim btw) who cannot help them self.

 

War is an important part of any religion. If one doesn't include it as part of their faith then that religion would probably be wiped out the face of the world before it can begin. War should be a last resort and is (prophet (pbuh) could have gone to war many times but hesitated for the sake of finding peace). War is even considered an important aspect of every nation. Primarily as a deterrent. If this is acceptable for nations, then why not for religion?

 

And it doesn't say going against non-muslim. My god for bleedings sake open your eyes and stop watching Fox news. It says "your enemies". This does NOT mean all non-muslims. Just the ones who fight you.

It even says "If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD". Meaning if they resort to peace (NOT become muslim), then you must too. And "put your trust in God" because you know they may trick you and attack you while you are unaware, but if they show signs of peace then still keep the peace and have faith in God.

 

Jihad is also a beautiful concept. One that tells every muslim that he has a responsibility to struggle to do what is right. This is in terms of avoiding forbidden things (drinking, gambling, eating in ramadan etc) but also it makes every Muslim aware of the fact that he has a responsibility over the wellbeing of his brothers and sisters (muslims are considered as brothers and sisters as if they came from the same mother). If they are in hardship it's his responsibility to help. This may be in dialogue, financial or even military help if required. How more wonderful can this get?

It's like saying if New York was getting beaten up or bullied by the UK then the rest of the US states are obliged to intervene and resolve the situation peacefully. If this is not possible, then with force if necessary.

 

You are the one who provided these quotes. Not me. Read them. Understand what they are saying. Everything I have said has come direct from something you provided and needed to do no extra research.

[oregano]

War is an important part of any religion. If one doesn't include have it as part of their faith then that religion would probably be wiped out the face of the world before it can begin. War should be a last resort and is (prophet (pbuh) could have gone to war many times but hesitated for the sake of finding peace). War is even considered an important aspect of every nation. Primarily as a deterrent. If this is acceptable for nations, then why not for religion?

 

War should always be a last resort, of course. I agree to that. But it should not be an important. Religions should be able to coexist in harmony. The Jewish people never waged war upon others primarily. It was always them who were attacked. The Jews came to Israel looking forward to peace, but all the Arab nations declared war on Israel the day after its independence. Even after Israel won its independence war, it had to fight other wars, with Egypt, Lebanon, and the other Middle Eastern countries surrounding it.

 

I am always puzzled when I think about why the Jews are persecuted, mainly by Christians and Muslims, because of their beliefs. The three religions are very similar, in fact. We all believe in Abraham. But then the Muslims believe in the Prophet Mohammad, the Christians in Jesus, and the Jews in Moses.

 

Maybe it is our similarities that make us so different? That would seem odd, but it's the only logical explanation I can presently think of.

 

And it doesn't say going against non-muslim. My god for bleedings sake open your eyes and stop watching Fox news. It says "your enemies". This does NOT mean all non-muslims. Just the ones who fight you.

 

Then why did all of the Arab countries around Israel declare war on Israel multiple times after Israel attacked no one at all? It's true that Palestine occupied that land, but the British and the United Nations, along with the World Zionist Movement made the decision to give that land back to the Jews. If the rest of the world recognizes Israel as rightfully Jewish and Palestinian land combined, why don't the Arab countries? Answer that before you're going to say that Arab countries have motives for who they attack.

 

And "put your trust in God" because you know they make trick you and attack you while you are unaware, but if they show signs of peace then still keep the peace and have faith in God.

 

Never, ever, would the State of Israel show peace to the Arabs but then surprise them with war. Unless they are attacked, which they were, Israel has no motive for war. Too much death has stained the Jewish people, and we're only looking for peace. I can't tell you how many prayers there are for peace and co-existence in Israel. We have no strive to fight, but we have the greatest strive for peace.

 

Jihad is also a beautiful concept. One that tells every muslim that he has a responsibility to struggle to do what is right. This is in terms of avoiding forbidden things (drinking, gambling, eating in ramadan etc) but also it makes ever Muslim aware of the fact that he has a responsibility over the wellbeing of his brothers and sisters (muslims are considered as brothers and sisters as if they came from the same mother). If they are in hardship it's his responsibility to help. This may be in dialogue, financial or even military help if required. How more wonderful can this get?

 

I'm sure that most Muslims are good people, and they interpret Jihad in a positive manner. They don't think it means to die in the name of God, and kill as many Americans or Jews as possible in your life. They probably believe it is something they can relate to in their religion, telling them to better their life.

But there are some Muslims who do die and kill. Enough to make the news daily. And when I hear about local soldiers dying in Iraq, I can only wonder. Why would you want to get rid of the forces that liberated you? I don't think the Iraq war was totally necessary, and we invaded Iraq under the assumption that it possessed weapons of mass destruction.

But they were still liberated from a terrible dictator that created a genocide. And the U.S. is only trying to help Iraq now, but Muslims constantly walk into groups of soldiers and blow themselves up. Every day. And then I hear about it, and I see the grieving families, who's children were only trying to help.

It is true that some of the soldiers treated prisoners terribly, but that is because they were dealing with prisoners who had just killed their comrades, for no apparent reason to them.

 

 

You say you are Muslim, and you live in London. How did you react to the bombings on the trains this past year? Knowing that it was members of your religion who died, killing, but thinking they were doing the right thing? That is not a beautiful concept, I must say. It is absolutely terrible, and I hope it will never happen again. No groups of Jews would ever do that. And although a few Jewish individuals may be corrupt, there aren't nearly as many Jews are willing to kill innocent people as there are Muslims.

[Proteo]

Oh lord. I wish I were an alien. We earthlings suck.

[oregano]

we do, dont we

 

but we cant just say that, we cant push aside these problems

we have to work towards a better world

[Mebster]

War should always be a last resort, of course. I agree to that. But it should not be an important. Religions should be able to coexist in harmony. The Jewish people never waged war upon others primarily. It was always them who were attacked. The Jews came to Israel looking forward to peace, but all the Arab nations declared war on Israel the day after its independence. Even after Israel won its independence war, it had to fight other wars, with Egypt, Lebanon, and the other Middle Eastern countries surrounding it.

..

..

..

You've completely side stepped the issue in question... again.

 

Firstly this was about Israel and Palestine and you made it about Islam and Jihad and in particular - suicide bombing.

I asked you to show me some direct proof where Islam advocated suicide bombing and you came back with some beautiful quotes (which by the way was a complete miserable failure in proving Islam supports suicide bombings).

I replied as best I could showing how you're original statement was wrong and offensive and that in fact the quotes from the Qur'an made perfect sense and in fact were consistent with most nations policies.

 

Your reply was nothing about your original hostile post and the posts which followed from it. If there were any references to them it was one of a distance one which picked up on the smallest of insignificant issues.

 

Don't make irrational fuked up (had to say it) statements about something you don't know anything about. At least don’t if you can't back it up (which you clearly were unable to).

This is not to say I know about the issue in hand. I don't know very much either. But at least I make statements about topics I'm familiar with.

[yossicl]

You've completely side stepped the issue in question... again.

 

Firstly this was about Israel and Palestine and you made it about Islam and Jihad and in particular - suicide bombing.

I asked you to show me some direct proof where Islam advocated suicide bombing and you came back with some beautiful quotes (which by the way was a complete miserable failure in proving Islam supports suicide bombings).

I replied as best I could showing how you're original statement was wrong and offensive and that in fact the quotes from the Qur'an made perfect sense and in fact were consistent with most nations policies.

 

Your reply was nothing about your original hostile post and the posts which followed from it. If there were any references to them it was one of a distance one which picked up on the smallest of insignificant issues.

 

Don't make irrational fuked up (had to say it) statements about something you don't know anything about. At least don’t if you can't back it up (which you clearly were unable to).

This is not to say I know about the issue in hand. I don't know very much either. But at least I make statements about topics I'm familiar with.

I really don't think it is worth what Qur'an or Bible said if one use term against other in the name of Allah or whatever… (and yes I’m religionist).

 

Jihad, which is an incumbent religious duty, established in the Qur'an and in the Traditions as a divine institution, and enjoined for the purpose of advancing Islam. While suicide is forbidden, martyrdom is everywhere praised, welcomed, and urged: "By the Being in Whose Hand is my life, I love that I should be killed in the way of Allah; then I should be brought back to life and be killed again in His way..."; "The Prophet said, 'Nobody who enters Paradise will ever like to return to this world even if he were offered everything, except the martyr who will desire to return to this world and be killed 10 times for the sake of the great honour that has been bestowed upon him'." [sahih Muslim, chapters 781, 782, The Merit of Jihad and the Merit of Martyrdom.]

 

Suicide (qatlu nafsi-hi) is not referred to in the Qur'an but is indeed forbidden in the Hadith (Traditions), which are the collected sayings and doings attributed to the Prophet and traced back to him through a series of putatively trustworthy witnesses. They include what was done in his presence that he did not forbid, and even the authoritative sayings and doings of his companions.

 

It is widely believed that Muslim 'martyrs' enjoys rich sensual rewards on reaching paradise (72 virgins?!?!).

 

Suicide bombings are a legitimate weapon, according to the supreme Palestinian religious leader, the newly appointed Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and the Palestinian Lands Sheikh Muhammad Ahmad Hussein. Such action is a part of the Palestinian people's legitimate resistance!!!

 

In August 2001, the American television channel CBS aired an interview with a Hamas activist Muhammad Abu Wardeh, who recruited terrorists for suicide bombings in Israel. Abu Wardeh was quoted as saying: "I described to him how God would compensate the martyr (shahid) for sacrificing his life for his land. If you become a martyr, God will give you 70 virgins, 70 wives and everlasting happiness."

Wardeh was in fact shortchanging his recruits since the rewards in Paradise for martyrs was 72 virgins.

[keys88]

I haven't read the entire thread, but I've read enough to ask some questions.

 

AcePlayer, you say:

I asked you to show me some direct proof where Islam advocated suicide bombing and you came back with some beautiful quotes (which by the way was a complete miserable failure in proving Islam supports suicide bombings).

 

Any religious text generally and specifically the Quran can be interpreted multiple ways. Your interpretation is nice and certainly ideal, but are you saying that no Muslims interpret it differently?

 

I don't think anybody here is looking for proof that Islam unanimously advocates suicide bombing. If you want proof that there are Muslims who interpret differently than you, look in the newspapers.

 

One other thing I'm having trouble understanding: You say that jihad should only be a last resort, which implies that if there is a reasonable alternative or compromise, use that instead of jihad. There's no easy way to say this, but if the Muslims are the ones who decide what is reasonable, isn't this meaningless? They can just say that anything short of conquering the entire Israel and wiping out every Jew is an unreasonable alternative, and therefore we have no choice but to use jihad.

[killbot1000]

I haven't read the entire thread, but I've read enough to ask some questions.

 

AcePlayer, you say:

Any religious text generally and specifically the Quran can be interpreted multiple ways. Your interpretation is nice and certainly ideal, but are you saying that no Muslims interpret it differently?

 

I don't think anybody here is looking for proof that Islam unanimously advocates suicide bombing. If you want proof that there are Muslims who interpret differently than you, look in the newspapers.

 

One other thing I'm having trouble understanding: You say that jihad should only be a last resort, which implies that if there is a reasonable alternative or compromise, use that instead of jihad. There's no easy way to say this, but if the Muslims are the ones who decide what is reasonable, isn't this meaningless? They can just say that anything short of conquering the entire Israel and wiping out every Jew is an unreasonable alternative, and therefore we have no choice but to use jihad.

 

But couldn't a mainstream, level-headed Muslim argue that those people who suicide bomb aren't actually Muslim?

[yossicl]

But couldn't a mainstream, level-headed Muslim argue that those people who suicide bomb aren't actually Muslim?

Or maybe they are alien from out of space who decided to kill the non Muslim people (specially the Jews) in this planet?

[dark4181]

this thread makes my head spin

 

i say pull out, put an impenetrable energy field up over america and let the rest of the world blow itself up

 

and fyi, i'm one of the people that was against the war in the middle east to begin with. if the rest of the world wants to kill each other, that's their business. america should worry about americans first

[Mebster]

I haven't read the entire thread, but I've read enough to ask some questions.

 

AcePlayer, you say:

Any religious text generally and specifically the Quran can be interpreted multiple ways. Your interpretation is nice and certainly ideal, but are you saying that no Muslims interpret it differently?

 

I don't think anybody here is looking for proof that Islam unanimously advocates suicide bombing. If you want proof that there are Muslims who interpret differently than you, look in the newspapers.

 

One other thing I'm having trouble understanding: You say that jihad should only be a last resort, which implies that if there is a reasonable alternative or compromise, use that instead of jihad. There's no easy way to say this, but if the Muslims are the ones who decide what is reasonable, isn't this meaningless? They can just say that anything short of conquering the entire Israel and wiping out every Jew is an unreasonable alternative, and therefore we have no choice but to use jihad.

It's true that it's to do with interpretation. But this is not what joseafus was trying to show. He was stating that Islam 'clearly' advocated suicide bombings of innocent people. I have read no such clear statement in the Qur’an and what ticked me off more is his complete failure to back up his hostile comments with any solid facts. In fact the quotes of the Qur'an he showed were more favouring love and creating peace than fighting. One would normally at this point apologise especially if they come up with such rubbish that offends so many people. I myself have without knowing offended a few people here and have apologised. He should at the very least retract the statement or show better evidence of his believe and STOP CHANGING THE SUBJECT to escape what he has said.

 

I don't really get your last part. If you and I are about to start a war with each other then it is you and I who will decide if we are going to or not. For the sake of argument lets say you want to fight me (a non Muslim fighting a Muslim). I may see there are alternatives (Muslims should always look for a peaceful way first) and suggest we try and avoid the fighting. Maybe your throw back my offer or escalate the situation to a level where there must be a fight. So then and only then we fight. Obviously you on the other hand yourself may decide that fighting is not necessary and so approach me and suggest alternative means which a Muslims needs to accepts as the quote before shows. So it's a two way process.

 

I remember hearing a story of a companion of the prophet was way in mid battle and while he was fighting he was still trying to persuade his opponent that this is not necessary. This is the example we should all lead by until all else fails.

 

But couldn't a mainstream, level-headed Muslim argue that those people who suicide bomb aren't actually Muslim?

From my best understanding I would have to say Muslims would not be able to argue this. I might very well be wrong here. The reason I say no is because from what i understand the only thing that takes a person out of Islam is Shirk, which is association of others with Allah. A mass murdering Muslim is still a Muslim. But an evil one who will pay heavily for his actions just as everyone else will.

 

Saddam for example is an ass for the unnecessary killing of so many shias and kurds. But he is still considered Muslim and he still calls to Allah. For this reason Muslim still sympathise for him. And a lot support him over the western occupiers in his country. At the end of the day he may be an complete murdering loony but his still a brother, who must pay his price for his actions.

 

Or maybe they are alien from out of space who decided to kill the non Muslim people (specially the Jews) in this planet?

Why do you talk so much rubbish for? Go and see a doctor.

[gwprod12]

Saddam Houssein is a clear recipient of a copy of The Prince. Dictators are supposed to do what he did. His offense is being a dictator, not an incorrect dictator.

 

That aside, people will justify anything they like with religion, whether a religious text explicitly says yay or nay. People who genuinely believe in peaceful existence with others should try to reason with those who dont.

 

However, I'll say again, that both the Israelis and the Palestinians are equally at fault in this conflict, and both really need to get that before anyone can move forward. This constant "I'm in the right" "No, I am!" back and forth is only counterproductive. One way to do it is to get the UN to come in and build a big fence around jerusalem, making it an international city owned by no nation, that anyone can visit, and have a multi-national force just squat there until everyone wants to be reasonable.

 

The key to understanding this situation, AcePlayer and yossicl, is that neither side is being reasonable about this entire mess. Think to yourselves "Maybe we're both in the wrong". Then go and convince your respective sides.

[yossicl]

Saddam Houssein is a clear recipient of a copy of The Prince. Dictators are supposed to do what he did. His offense is being a dictator, not an incorrect dictator.

 

That aside, people will justify anything they like with religion, whether a religious text explicitly says yay or nay. People who genuinely believe in peaceful existence with others should try to reason with those who dont.

 

However, I'll say again, that both the Israelis and the Palestinians are equally at fault in this conflict, and both really need to get that before anyone can move forward. This constant "I'm in the right" "No, I am!" back and forth is only counterproductive. One way to do it is to get the UN to come in and build a big fence around jerusalem, making it an international city owned by no nation, that anyone can visit, and have a multi-national force just squat there until everyone wants to be reasonable.

 

The key to understanding this situation, AcePlayer and yossicl, is that neither side is being reasonable about this entire mess. Think to yourselves "Maybe we're both in the wrong". Then go and convince your respective sides.

You are amazing me, despite Israel's withdrawal from Gaza the Palestinians continue to relentlessly launch missiles rockets at Israeli towns with the intent to kill.

Every day our intelligence and security forces are preventing killing of hundreds terrorist acts against the Israeli citizens.

It's clearly to to all, they don't want any part of peace they want to kill that's all.

[consolation]

You are amazing me, despite Israel's withdrawal from Gaza the Palestinians continue to relentlessly launch missiles rockets at Israeli towns with the intent to kill.

Every day our intelligence and security forces are preventing killing of hundreds terrorist acts against the Israeli citizens.

It's clearly to to all, they don't want any part of peace they want to kill that's all.

 

Last time I heard Israel was still occupying the West Bank. Until it retreats back to it's UN defined borders it really shouldn't complain about guerrilla activity.

[yossicl]

Last time I heard Israel was still occupying the West Bank.

Israel's withdrawal from Gaza and start withdrawal from parts of the West Bank.

But instead the Palestinians show some willingness to stop with they brutality action against the Israeli citizens, it get even worst.

Before the withdrawal from Gaza, they didn’t launch missiles rockets at Israeli towns.

They look at the Israelis as a cowards running for their lands not as a partner for peace.

 

The problem is not territory possession. They don’t want us here and that’s it.

Until it retreats back to it's UN defined borders it really shouldn't complain about guerrilla activity.

Killing Israeli citizens it’s o.k. But killing Palestinian terrorists it’s bad?

I thought you say you are not Fascist…