Israel and Palestine

[yossicl]

I think it's a coincidence. But even if it's not, prayer rarely works, either because God is busy or doesnt like the person praying or doesnt feel like doing what the prayer wants. God is a fickle ally indeed.

 

There are a few studies of prayer as an aid during medicine. But, if you look at them, you'll find that even though patients do better when being actively prayed for, they only do better when they know they're being prayed for. It's quackery. It's also a way of taking no responsibility. Let's say I've got a life-threatening, but curable disease. And a jehova's witness persuades me to use prayer as medicine. When it doesnt work and I'm dead, the person administering it will just say "it's God's will" and move on. PASS. Quackery indeed.

There are a lot of stories on hopeless terminal patient that has been recuperating some of them are faked but some of them are real. Do you have any scientific explanation?

There are a known people with internal magnetic power in their body who can magnetize metal materials to their body. Do you have any scientific explanation?

There are people who can read your mine. Do you have any scientific explanation?

There is a lot of unscientifically things in our world that nobody have the answer how can it be if there is nothing but rationale evidence but the science have no explanation?

 

Edit : Don’t get me wrong I don’t believe that those people have divinity power.

[consolation]

There are a lot of stories on hopeless terminal patient that has been recuperating some of them are faked but some of them are real. Do you have any scientific explanation?

There are a known people with internal magnetic power in their body who can magnetize metal materials to their body. Do you have any scientific explanation?

There are people who can read your mine. Do you have any scientific explanation?

There is a lot of unscientifically things in our world that nobody have the answer how can it be if there is nothing but rationale evidence but the science have no explanation?

 

Edit : Don’t get me wrong I don’t believe that those people have divinity power.

 

Some terminal diseases go into remission spontaneously, yes there are damn good explanations for that, no need for magick pixies...

 

Have your "magnet" people (you watch wayyyy too much Xmen) allowed themselves to be studied in controlled environments in double blind studies? I doubt it...

 

Mind readers, eh... no there is not, honestly dude -are you trolling? There is no replicable parapsych studies, note the replicable part.

 

There used to be a LOT more things we attributed to magick but can now explain, that's what science does...

 

Regarding prayer and sick people, I had to do a lit review on placebo effect for one of my clinical papers; there is a consistent strong effect. If you give someone a sugar pill it will sometimes outperform treatment conditions if you make them believe enough. It's a question of our natural resilience not divine intervention etc... So if a patient was a believer I'd tell them to pray, if they were a believer in voodoo i'd tell them to bring their fetish etc etc... A corollary of this is that depressed people and ones which feel helpless will get sicker and recover slower -nothing to do with god, just human psychology.

[gwprod12]

There are a few cases of people with supposed magnetic powers. They've never been extensively studied by a scientist, though I think they should be. However; Just because there is no scientific explanation for a phenomena doesnt mean that it's magic or a miracle. Magic/Miracles defy any scientific explanation. Hot water, under specific circumstances can freeze faster than cold water. That's a fact, it's been observed. The effect can be reproduced. No one knows why that is, however. That doesnt mean that it's magic.

[killbot1000]

There are a lot of stories on hopeless terminal patient that has been recuperating some of them are faked but some of them are real. Do you have any scientific explanation?

There are a known people with internal magnetic power in their body who can magnetize metal materials to their body. Do you have any scientific explanation?

There are people who can read your mine. Do you have any scientific explanation?

There is a lot of unscientifically things in our world that nobody have the answer how can it be if there is nothing but rationale evidence but the science have no explanation?

 

Edit : Don’t get me wrong I don’t believe that those people have divinity power.

 

Notice again how you cling to your superstition, I show you statistics, with a logical backdrop, and you show me anecdotal stories of people mysteriously healed by prayer, really, cant you do better than that?

[yossicl]

Some terminal diseases go into remission spontaneously, yes there are damn good explanations for that, no need for magick pixies...

 

Have your "magnet" people (you watch wayyyy too much Xmen) allowed themselves to be studied in controlled environments in double blind studies? I doubt it...

 

Mind readers, eh... no there is not, honestly dude -are you trolling? There is no replicable parapsych studies, note the replicable part.

 

There used to be a LOT more things we attributed to magick but can now explain, that's what science does...

 

Regarding prayer and sick people, I had to do a lit review on placebo effect for one of my clinical papers; there is a consistent strong effect. If you give someone a sugar pill it will sometimes outperform treatment conditions if you make them believe enough. It's a question of our natural resilience not divine intervention etc... So if a patient was a believer I'd tell them to pray, if they were a believer in voodoo i'd tell them to bring their fetish etc etc... A corollary of this is that depressed people and ones which feel helpless will get sicker and recover slower -nothing to do with god, just human psychology.

What about clinical death that come back to life with thire amazing story?

Do you have explanation for that too?

[yossicl]

There are a few cases of people with supposed magnetic powers. They've never been extensively studied by a scientist, though I think they should be. However; Just because there is no scientific explanation for a phenomena doesnt mean that it's magic or a miracle. Magic/Miracles defy any scientific explanation. Hot water, under specific circumstances can freeze faster than cold water. That's a fact, it's been observed. The effect can be reproduced. No one knows why that is, however. That doesnt mean that it's magic.

I didn’t try to tell that it’s magic or miracles. I’ve just want to show some examples that not everything have scientist explanation.

There is a lot of unscientifically things in our world that nobody have the answer how can it be if there is nothing but rationale evidence but the science have no explanation?

LOL It seem that all of you read what you want.

[gwprod12]

Well, frankly, your english is pretty bad.

 

But, what I think you mean is: "How can something have a rational explanation if science hasnt explained it yet?"

 

Well, I can only respond two ways.

 

1) 700 years ago, some people thought the world could not be circumnavigated. Obviously inability to perceive a way to circumnavigate the globe does not mean that circumnavigation is impossible, or a miracle.

some people, myself included, believe very strongly that there is a rational explanation to everything. Anything that currently has no rational explanation should be studied so that there is a rational explanation.

Remote prayer doesnt have a scientific explanation because it doesnt work consistently, or at all.

 

2) Point to one thing that can be seen with the naked eye, but that has no scientific explanation.

[yossicl]

Well, frankly, your english is pretty bad.

 

But, what I think you mean is: "How can something have a rational explanation if science hasnt explained it yet?"

 

Well, I can only respond two ways.

 

1) 700 years ago, some people thought the world could not be circumnavigated. Obviously inability to perceive a way to circumnavigate the globe does not mean that circumnavigation is impossible, or a miracle.

some people, myself included, believe very strongly that there is a rational explanation to everything. Anything that currently has no rational explanation should be studied so that there is a rational explanation.

Remote prayer doesnt have a scientific explanation because it doesnt work consistently, or at all.

 

2) Point to one thing that can be seen with the naked eye, but that has no scientific explanation.

Here you go:

A near-death experience (NDE) is an experience reported by a person who nearly died or who was clinically dead and revived.

An out-of-body experience (OBE or sometimes OOBE) is an experience that typically involves a sensation of floating outside of one's body and, in some cases, seeing one's physical body from a place outside one's body.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4271018.stm

 

There is no scientific explanation only some theory.

[gwprod12]

Something you can point at. That you can see. Anyone can claim anything they want. Acid-trips arent magic.

[yossicl]

Something you can point at. That you can see. Anyone can claim anything they want. Acid-trips arent magic.

Clinically dead and revived can't be seeing?

Some people accurately described a surgical instrument they had not seen previously, as well as a conversation that occurred while they was understood to be clinically dead.

http://www.iands.org/dutch_study.html

[killbot1000]

What about clinical death that come back to life with thire amazing story?

Do you have explanation for that too?

 

No, I cant explain it, but that doesnt mean its god. Break it down into logical terms

 

Just because "A" cant be explained by "B" doesn't mean the answer is "C" it just means that as of yet there is no answer. See god is a jump, people see something, cant figure out a reason for it, and then immediately jump to the idea of god, when really there is no rational backing for that jump.

 

Clinically dead and revived can't be seeing?

Some people accurately described a surgical instrument they had not seen previously, as well as a conversation that occurred while they was understood to be clinically dead.

http://www.iands.org/dutch_study.html

Also, that person could have been in a half conscious state and perceived their own surroundings. But not everybody has near death experiences, MOST people simply don't remember anything about being near death. These people having the near death experiences are few and far between, and can probably be explained through rational means without having to make the leap to god.

 

Something you can point at. That you can see. Anyone can claim anything they want. Acid-trips arent magic.

 

Exactly, and you wont find any...

[gwprod12]

Yossicl: You can see, touch, smell and measure someone else's experience? Now THAT's magic.

[yossicl]

No, I cant explain it, but that doesnt mean its god. Break it down into logical terms

 

Just because "A" cant be explained by "B" doesn't mean the answer is "C" it just means that as of yet there is no answer. See god is a jump, people see something, cant figure out a reason for it, and then immediately jump to the idea of god, when really there is no rational backing for that jump.

Also, that person could have been in a half conscious state and perceived their own surroundings. But not everybody has near death experiences, MOST people simply don't remember anything about being near death. These people having the near death experiences are few and far between, and can probably be explained through rational means without having to make the leap to god.

You know this phenomenon are existing, observed and study but there is no scientific explanation.

Why not GOD?

Because you’re mathematical formula doesn’t work here? Or just because you don’t believe in GOD?

You cannot observed/examine/calculate GOD existence with scientifically tools because GOD is above that and he doesn’t chained to physicals/naturals lows as we are.

 

You prefer to believe to scientist but you know they don’t have all the answers.

But in other hands we have real documents with real humans like Moses, king David, and King Solomon (known as the one of the smartest man in the human history) and they are all talked to GOD and who we are compare to them?

[gwprod12]

God doesnt exist, and even if he did, there would be no way to prove it. Give it a rest.

 

Instead of being a hatemongering nitwit, try shedding off your superstition and living a life of reason.

[killbot1000]

You know this phenomenon are existing, observed and study but there is no scientific explanation.

Why not GOD?

Because you’re mathematical formula doesn’t work here? Or just because you don’t believe in GOD?

You cannot observed/examine/calculate GOD existence with scientifically tools because GOD is above that and he doesn’t chained to physicals/naturals lows as we are.

 

You prefer to believe to scientist but you know they don’t have all the answers.

But in other hands we have real documents with real humans like Moses, king David, and King Solomon (known as the one of the smartest man in the human history) and they are all talked to GOD and who we are compare to them?

 

Yes, but they all talked to god alone? What does that tell you? They probably made it all up...Seriously...

 

I know you cant calculate gods existance with tools, but you can calculate when somebody is lying or experiencing something else besides god. And thats exactly what I'm trying to tell you, near death experiences can be explained through rational means. And in terms of math, no, I'm horrible at math, but I can see myself as a logical, rational person, living in a universe that acts in a logical, rational, measurable way. Theres nothing creepy or weird about that, it just is.

 

Humans needed religion to get to where we are today, but now that we have ways to actually figure out the world around us, religion/god is unnecessary and outdated. Those who continue to believe even in the face of overwhelming evidence against what they believe are really just clinging onto the past (not that I would ever justify any action against those people, only words, and reasoning).

 

Also, just to take a cheap shot at your religion. Your holy book tells you to kill people who don't believe in god.

 

"If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky… Take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death." – Deut 17:2-7

 

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods …do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him." - Deut 13:7-12

 

As an atheist, I could never even think of killing anybody in my family who wasn't atheist, that would be (for lack of a better term) f***ed up. How can anybody follow a religion that tells you to kill your own family members and friends, simply because they believe differently than you.

 

Again, you are probably making up excuses right now for why I am totally off the mark, but really, stop defending an outdated and barbaric book, and start LIVING IN TODAYS WORLD (2006 almost 2007) not 2006BC, seriously...

 

Also, your commandments say that the Israelites are the chosen people, a little ethnocentric don't you think?

[oregano]

God doesnt exist, and even if he did, there would be no way to prove it. Give it a rest.

 

Instead of being a hatemongering nitwit, try shedding off your superstition and living a life of reason.

 

 

this israel palestine debate has little to do with god

there are plenty of atheist jews in israel

we can all have beliefs and doubts in concepts

 

but one thing is certain

the jews have been persecuted relentlessly throughout the ages, and it is finally our turn to have stable lives and a country to call home

and really, that is what it comes down to, and the only way the current situation in israel should change now is that the muslim extremists should stop blowing themselves up, and then we would have palestine and israel peacefully coexisting--and the israeli government can compensate for palestinian loses when needed, but eventually all palestinians will have homes, and the generation that was forced off will die out, and there will be peace, it just takes time

thats all that has to happen guys, we just need to wait, and not develop new hatred

[killbot1000]

this israel palestine debate has little to do with god

there are plenty of atheist jews in israel

we can all have beliefs and doubts in concepts

 

but one thing is certain

the jews have been persecuted relentlessly throughout the ages, and it is finally our turn to have stable lives and a country to call home

and really, that is what it comes down to, and the only way the current situation in israel should change now is that the muslim extremists should stop blowing themselves up, and then we would have palestine and israel peacefully coexisting--and the israeli government can compensate for palestinian loses when needed, but eventually all palestinians will have homes, and the generation that was forced off will die out, and there will be peace, it just takes time

thats all that has to happen guys, we just need to wait, and not develop new hatred

 

Jewish people are no different from any other people on the earth, many different groups of people all throughout history have been oppressed, its a sad fact of history. All I'm saying is that we should all be on equal footing, I have nothing against Jewish people, but they don't hold a special place in my mind, or I don't feel they deserve anything, anymore than the Palestinians do.

[gwprod12]

Agreed. A very good axiom I've always liked is: "Do not complain about what you need not subject yourself to.". The jews neednt have subjected themselves to people who were anti-judaism. They chose to subject themselves to people who were anti-jew by remaining jews. I'm not trying to say that they should have converted to christianity or islam, or whatever. What I'm trying to say is that they brought a lot of persecution on themselves, in exchange for living how they want to live.

 

It's just like me. I cant complain about how people treat me, as a {censored} man, when I could just as easily hide it. I dont hide it, because I dont want to. Would I like it if it were easier? Absolutely. Unlike skin color or national origin, religion and sexuality are both discovered by their practice, and can thus be hidden. The jews choose not to, and I choose not to. Well, expect some oppression then ;-p

 

So, does the fact that Jews were oppressed give them the right to, in turn, oppress others? NO.

 

I say no to the Inverse Law of Reciprocity. No to "Do unto others as they have done unto you", Yes to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". If you want. But if you dont want, dont complain.

[yossicl]

Yes, but they all talked to god alone? What does that tell you? They probably made it all up...Seriously...

 

I know you cant calculate gods existance with tools, but you can calculate when somebody is lying or experiencing something else besides god. And thats exactly what I'm trying to tell you, near death experiences can be explained through rational means. And in terms of math, no, I'm horrible at math, but I can see myself as a logical, rational person, living in a universe that acts in a logical, rational, measurable way. Theres nothing creepy or weird about that, it just is.

 

Humans needed religion to get to where we are today, but now that we have ways to actually figure out the world around us, religion/god is unnecessary and outdated. Those who continue to believe even in the face of overwhelming evidence against what they believe are really just clinging onto the past (not that I would ever justify any action against those people, only words, and reasoning).

 

Also, just to take a cheap shot at your religion. Your holy book tells you to kill people who don't believe in god.

 

"If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky… Take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death." – Deut 17:2-7

 

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods …do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him." - Deut 13:7-12

 

As an atheist, I could never even think of killing anybody in my family who wasn't atheist, that would be (for lack of a better term) f***ed up. How can anybody follow a religion that tells you to kill your own family members and friends, simply because they believe differently than you.

 

Again, you are probably making up excuses right now for why I am totally off the mark, but really, stop defending an outdated and barbaric book, and start LIVING IN TODAYS WORLD (2006 almost 2007) not 2006BC, seriously...

 

Also, your commandments say that the Israelites are the chosen people, a little ethnocentric don't you think?

That's what happened when you take sentence out of context without understand it.

The bible cannot be read as it is there is a lot implication to understand the text.

Sorry but I cannot explain to you what I know because its quiet complicated to explain even in Hebrew.

I didn't tried to convince you to believe in GOD because it was very clear to me that you don't want to believe in any circumstances.

The bottom line is I do believe in GOD and I do believe in prayer.

Personally I never hurt somebody and my work in the hospital is saving life of people I've been saving life of Muslims, Christians, Jews and others and I don't care what religions they believes.

[yossicl]

Agreed. A very good axiom I've always liked is: "Do not complain about what you need not subject yourself to.". The jews neednt have subjected themselves to people who were anti-judaism. They chose to subject themselves to people who were anti-jew by remaining jews. I'm not trying to say that they should have converted to christianity or islam, or whatever. What I'm trying to say is that they brought a lot of persecution on themselves, in exchange for living how they want to live.

 

It's just like me. I cant complain about how people treat me, as a {censored} man, when I could just as easily hide it. I dont hide it, because I dont want to. Would I like it if it were easier? Absolutely. Unlike skin color or national origin, religion and sexuality are both discovered by their practice, and can thus be hidden. The jews choose not to, and I choose not to. Well, expect some oppression then ;-p

 

So, does the fact that Jews were oppressed give them the right to, in turn, oppress others? NO.

 

I say no to the Inverse Law of Reciprocity. No to "Do unto others as they have done unto you", Yes to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". If you want. But if you dont want, dont complain.

What a {censored}. Because I'm a Jew I deserve to be persecution and to be killed?

Since Israel has been established we where always fighting for are lives.

Israel never start attacking her neighbors it was always start by them and Israel always defend herself against her neighbors brutality and stupidity and if GOD wasn't with us we where been vanish for a long time from the earth.

So what you say is completely nonsense.

[gwprod12]

You dont deserve it... what a silly notion. Does the person who refuses to look both ways before crossing the street deserve to be hit by a car? No, but he could have avoided it. And he cant complain about how mean and evil the driver of that car was when he could have avoided getting hit by doing what anyone with sense would do. If he doesnt want to look both ways, he should expect to get hit. If you dont want to conform to society (as I dont), you should expect to be persecuted. Do you deserve to be persecuted? No.

 

As to God being your ultimate ally, I suspect that God wouldnt assist you much if the US and the rest of the world left you to your own devices.

 

This is the stupidity of religionists. When someone who believes in God gets into trouble, their first thought is how they've displeased God, as opposed to the actions that brought about what happened to them. Pfft.

[dark4181]

^gotta agree with that

 

believing and trusting in god doesn't excuse you from using common sense

[yossicl]

You dont deserve it... what a silly notion. Does the person who refuses to look both ways before crossing the street deserve to be hit by a car? No, but he could have avoided it. And he cant complain about how mean and evil the driver of that car was when he could have avoided getting hit by doing what anyone with sense would do. If he doesnt want to look both ways, he should expect to get hit. If you dont want to conform to society (as I dont), you should expect to be persecuted. Do you deserve to be persecuted? No.

I cannot accepts or agree with that.

The Jews was never force Judaism on other religions and the Jews was never persecution other religions.

As to God being your ultimate ally, I suspect that God wouldnt assist you much if the US and the rest of the world left you to your own devices.

How do you think we where survived 2000 years without United State despite the facts that other nation tries to destroy us and some of those nations were disappear but we still here?

This is the stupidity of religionists. When someone who believes in God gets into trouble, their first thought is how they've displeased God, as opposed to the actions that brought about what happened to them. Pfft.

For the fact the Jews was "gets into trouble" cannot be explain but we cannot displeased GOD because as a human you should understand that we cannot understand thing beyond our knowledge ability.

[gameguy132]

Maybe one day we will know for sure, for example we could use the future lie detectors that may come out. You see my cousin died and was revived 6 times in a row and after he said he saw angels. Now we wait for the lie detector to come in existance, we use it on him and BOOM if it measures true we know there are angels!

 

Also, men invented science, physics, math. If you say "why is that" when someone tells you a conjecture or something, and you keep saying it to what they say, eventually you will end with either of these four answers:

 

A ) Because we say so.

B ) Because it just is.

C ) I dont know.

D ) God.

 

Now, the only one of these that ACTUALLY has a meaning and a reason is D, care to try to come with a point where these answers are not the only ones? i dont think you can.

[gwprod12]

If human beings were all-knowing, they would therefore be all-powerful, as knowledge = power. Thus, humans would be Gods. Thus, "We can see it, but we're not sure why" and "God(human beings) want it that way"

 

Until humans have infinite knowledge, we must muddle through with "We think this is why this is the way it is".

 

Perhaps you would be happier with the superstitions of 10000 years ago? When the only technology was making fire and raising crops?

 

The computer I'm typing on is only possible because of quantum mechanics. It is an underlying principle necessary to the miniturization of electronic components. Prayer would produce a better computer?

 

A lie detector cannot distinguish a belief from fact. Thus, if when "clinically dead", I saw martians experimenting on monkeys turning them into humans, it need not be fact, as much as I might believe I saw it.