Israel and Palestine

[bigboss]

Ok, Pakistan I get but Bangladesh and China?

 

Pakistan supports Bangladesh and China supports both of them. China gives Pakistan nuclear and military help much like the United States. Bangladesh is accused of harboring terrorists.

 

Pakistan and Bangladesh both harbour and protect terrorist leaders who want to see "the destruction of India by Islamic jihad and the islamisation of its people".

 

Perhaps you'd like to go talk to some terrorist then. Better yet, why dont you go see the barbaric acts they commit then talk.

 

[Although I will say this, the only reason Islam exists in the Indian subcontinent is because the Hindu principles of tolerance allowed them to enter. Muslims came in as invaders, they plundered and killed and forced the conversion of Hindu's to Islam under threat of death.]

 

perhaps you need some proof...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_empires_in_India

http://www.gatewayforindia.com/history/muslim_history.htm

http://www.gatewayforindia.com/history/muslim_history.htm

 

why dont you go edit the wikipedia given your opinions, im sure the edits will last...

 

I'm just trying to show here that India is no way as rosy and tolerant as you paint it to be. It has it's equal share of barbarianism too. And there's a lot of it. In a country where the Muslims are the extreme minority and the state more or less sits back while they are being massacred is not a country which i would be extremely proud of for it's human rights part. This is not to say that Pakistan, Bangladesh or China has much better human rights but no one here so far has attempted to paint a rosy picture of these countries. Your depiction of India was. And it's so far from being rosy that you wouldn't believe.

 

Im quite aware of India's flaws living in India and all... You should also be quite aware of Islam's flaws being the fact that you are a defender of it. Also, I think its worth mentioning that Islam is "no way as rosy and tolerant as you paint it to be. It has it's equal share of barbarianism too" Just keep that in mind. Also, Muslims are not the extreme minority considering the represent about 1/6th of the Indian population compared to Sikhs who do not even come close to that. Not really the extreme minority. A little statement about India's tolerance, tell me which country you know that has a Christian head of government, a Muslim president, a Sikh prime minster all for a nation that is 75% Hindu?

 

ace player you are going way off topic, my main argument was on israel and palestine but you conveniently ignored that one... good job! maybe you should just drop it and leave...

 

thus the fact remains, hamas is a terrorist organization that should not in any way be allowed to have a role in making palestinian policy, they will just plunge their people further down into poverty and destroy any hopes for peace. given the choice i would much prefer abbas' return to power over the extremism of hamas.

[Synaesthesia]

Hey Bigboss, thanks for the maturity and awareness you bring to this mudslinging contest. I really liked your posts, they show sympathy and awareness of both sides interests, a rare feat!

[yossicl]

The US gives billions $$$ to Israel. This is a known fact. I don't know why it ever started but it did way way back and now the Jewish and pro Israeli lobbies pressure the US to keep giving billions of US tax payers money to a so called prosperous state. This BBC news report shows how Israel asked for a boost injection of $10bn to help get it out of a "economic crisis". Notice at the end of the report it says

"Israel already receives $3bn a year from the US, mostly as military aid."

So you say the Americans are stupid because they are wasted their money on Israel?

O.k. let me telling you one secret that you and your Islamic friends in Europe try harder to hide form the miserable Europeans citizens.

America knows that some day Europe become Islamic republic just like Iran and they are proper themselves to this morning. They know that Israel is the last frontier for this ambitious Islamic dreaming so that day will not carried out.

 

For the money that America "giving" to Israel... Well, most of the money "wasted" in Israel on development better life to the mankind while the Arabs money wasted on destroying life...

[Mebster]

bigboss, you started basically by attacking Islam on a topic which has nothing much to do with Islam. Then you're surprised that I discuss your attack. Why? Your entire comments on Islam was OFF TOPIC. And for that reason obviously a good portion of my reply was too. Your off topic comments caused my off topic comments. So if you want to talk about off topic statements please look back at your post. Oh wait. you've removed most of the statements I’m referring to now for some reason.

 

Anyway my post was not entirely off topic. I addressed one of your questions on Israel receiving billions in US aid. But you failed to acknowledge that completely.

 

hamas is a terrorist organization that should not in any way be allowed to have a role in making palestinian policy, they will just plunge their people further down into poverty and destroy any hopes for peace. given the choice i would much prefer abbas' return to power over the extremism of hamas.

Hamas was elected by the Palestinian people. It is not for you or I to say who should be running them. They have decided and so we should stop bitching about it. Hamas btw carries out many humanitarian tasks that the Palestinian people desperately need. Without them there providing aid it's arguable the country at least for a short span of time would fall in further despair. Basically it comes down to the fact that you can't go around "spreading democracy" and then be angry and cry about what it throws out.

 

I'm not a hamas campaigner or anything but one thing that sticks in my head was that hamas held a ceasefire for a good while, while Israel continued taking out their people and their MPs. That for me at least shows a great willingness to try and make things work. And for that they have my respect. It can't be easy holding onto to a one sided ceasefire while your people are being blown apart. The pre-elected hamas would never have done that.

 

yossicl, I didn't say the US were stupid. But yeah they are wasting billions on Israel. Money that is so clearly needed in the US itself. But instead it gets shipped out to Israel. Israel has come to depend on the US so much financially i wonder what will happen when the day comes when the US decides it has wasted enough money on Israel. How will (and when will) this blessed nation stand on its own feet? When will the day come when the jews will not 'need' the money of christians to survive.

 

Also if some day Europe does become "Islamic republic" (what ever that is) I think you're being a little to big headed to think that "Israel is the last frontier". I don’t know. If what you say is true then US is still wasting a lot of money on a state that really has no allegiance to the US (as has been shown) for something that may or may not happen. And if they really think it will happen then it just shows you all think quiet highly of Islam. I mean to think it will take over Europe is quite a statement.

On the other hand if it never happens then the US is still wasting billions on a state that really doesn't deserve so much money. I mean give it to Africa. God knows they need it. Or are you going to tell me you need it more than them?

 

inbox86, salam bro. Nice post.

[yossicl]

yossicl, I didn't say the US were stupid. But yeah they are wasting billions on Israel. Money that is so clearly needed in the US itself. But instead it gets shipped out to Israel. Israel has come to depend on the US so much financially i wonder what will happen when the day comes when the US decides it has wasted enough money on Israel. How will (and when will) this blessed nation stand on its own feet? When will the day come when the jews will not 'need' the money of christians to survive.

 

Also if some day Europe does become "Islamic republic" (what ever that is) I think you're being a little to big headed to think that "Israel is the last frontier". I don’t know. If what you say is true then US is still wasting a lot of money on a state that really has no allegiance to the US (as has been shown) for something that may or may not happen. And if they really think it will happen then it just shows you all think quiet highly of Islam. I mean to think it will take over Europe is quite a statement.

On the other hand if it never happens then the US is still wasting billions on a state that really doesn't deserve so much money. I mean give it to Africa. God knows they need it. Or are you going to tell me you need it more than them?

If you want it or not Israel stills the last frontier for this ambitious Islamic dreaming and believe me all the fundamentalist Islamic leaders know that pretty well. And believe me we will insure that this day will not become (especially not in Israel).

 

Don’t get me wrong, I hop Israel will do nothing to stop Europeans Islamization in fact they deserve this punishment after 2000 years of maltreatment to the Jews.

But we will still be here like bone in the throat for the Arabs fundamentalist Islamic nations.

 

Edit: Oh and btw, I didn't hear that Arabs/Muslims money was ever goes to Africa (except for destruction and killing African innocent people of course)!!!

[yossicl]

Prayers never solved anything...do something to cause world peace instead of praying for it out of a feeling of lack of control...

At least one prayer has been fulfilled, after 2000 years we got back to our land!!!

So don’t underestimate in the power of prayer...

[killbot1000]

At least one prayer has been fulfilled, after 2000 years we got back to our land!!!

So don’t underestimate in the power of prayer...

 

 

Lets break down your statement by using letters.

 

At least "A" has been fulfilled, after 2000 years we got "B", so don't underestimate the power of "C".

 

 

Do you understand how much your statement doesn't make sense when you add intelligent thought to it?

 

 

Israelis got their land back because after WW2, the UN, the US, and the British decided to give it to them, also, the state has been propped up artificially by money and weapons from other nations, so don't give me a bunch of bull about how 2000 years of prayer led to the state of Israel, because it didn't. Israel was started by real/men and women doing real world men/woman things, nothing more...

[yossicl]

Lets break down your statement by using letters.

 

At least "A" has been fulfilled, after 2000 years we got "B", so don't underestimate the power of "C".

Do you understand how much your statement doesn't make sense when you add intelligent thought to it?

Yes, I understand that you have nothing to say so you say nothing that's all and this is your intelligent thought?

Israelis got their land back because after WW2, the UN, the US, and the British decided to give it to them, also, the state has been propped up artificially by money and weapons from other nations, so don't give me a bunch of bull about how 2000 years of prayer led to the state of Israel, because it didn't. Israel was started by real/men and women doing real world men/woman things, nothing more...

Israel was started by real/men and women doing real world men/woman things by GOD control and by GOD willpower and nothing more... I already understand that but it's seems that you don't understand that (in matter of fact you don't want to understand that).

[gwprod12]

God is a fickle and uncertain ally.

[yossicl]

God is a fickle and uncertain ally.

You understand that because you are a human and you are locked in your four dimensions which GOD is not.

So you cannot "stand" in GOD "place" and you will never understand things beyond your mind.

For me and for you GOD works in mysterious ways…

[killbot1000]

You understand that because you are a human and you are locked in your four dimensions which GOD is not.

So you cannot "stand" in GOD "place" and you will never understand things beyond your mind.

For me and for you GOD works in mysterious ways…

 

 

I think its great that you have all the answers, go with that (sarcasm).

 

 

seriously though, I don't know if theres a god and I don't know what happens after I die, and neither does anybody else, anybody who does is lying, simple. We will only find out (or not) when we die. You cant say God controls our actions because you don't know, nobody does, and its kind of arrogant and rude to say so...

[yossicl]

I think its great that you have all the answers, go with that (sarcasm).

Sorry but I really don't know all the answers. If I would know I would be GOD by myself.

seriously though, I don't know if theres a god and I don't know what happens after I die, and neither does anybody else, anybody who does is lying, simple. We will only find out (or not) when we die. You cant say God controls our actions because you don't know, nobody does, and its kind of arrogant and rude to say so...

No it's not arrogant and rude to say so because we have tradition that GOD "talked" to Abraham, Yitzhak, Yaakov and Moses and some others prophets.

[killbot1000]

No it's not arrogant and rude to say so because we have tradition that GOD "talked" to Abraham, Yitzhak, Yaakov and Moses and some others prophets.

 

Yes, you have tradition, but that doesn't mean its true...

[yossicl]

Yes, you have tradition, but that doesn't mean its true...

You can say so on anything that you don't like but we know and also billions of people on this planet knows its true…

It's all written in the Book of Books, the Bible that passed from generation to generation from father to son and this is the reason why it's called tradition.

[killbot1000]

You can say so on anything that you don't like but we know and also billions of people on this planet knows its true…

It's all written in the Book of Books, the Bible that passed from generation to generation from father to son and this is the reason why it's called tradition.

 

I know its a tradition, thats not the issue. What I'm saying is just because its a tradition doesn't make it right/true.

[yossicl]

I know its a tradition, thats not the issue. What I'm saying is just because its a tradition doesn't make it right/true.

Only 60 years after WW2 today there are peoples who say the holocaust was never happened it’s all of the "Jews mind's invention".

Let’s go 2000 years in the future while it’s will seems that nobody will believe it’s ever happened doesn’t mean it was never happened. For that there are historical book or tradition.

Maybe for you it’s nothing but for me (and I believe for other billions peoples) the Bible is historical book and traditional too.

[killbot1000]

Only 60 years after WW2 today there are peoples who say the holocaust was never happened it’s all of the "Jews mind invention".

Let’s go 2000 years in the future while it’s wills seems that nobody will believe it’s ever happened doesn’t mean it was never happened. For that there are historical book or tradition.

Maybe for you it’s nothing but for me (and I believe for other billions peoples) the Bible is historical book and traditional too.

 

 

Im not debating that the holocaust happened, it did, theres empirical evidence to support it. However, the bible does not have empirical evidence, and the tradition of "god talked to somebody" is a common mythological theme, used throughout history again and again and again. It was even used 100 years ago with mormons (supposedly, joseph smith talked to god) same with muslims (apparently mohammed talked to the angel Gabrael) are you going to say these religions are wrong too? simply because you're not a part of them?

 

My point is, just because somebody says something happened doesn't mean it happened, everybody lies, therefore its safe to assume that some of the things written in the bible are lies. The whole book cant be true simply for the fact that its a book. Its not historical, the Adam and Eve story is in direct contradiction with the actual age of the world, and in direct contradiction to science. The mere fact that woman came from a man's rib is ludicrous. All I'm saying is that when one examines the evidence, the bible is on pretty damn shaky ground.

[yossicl]

Im not debating that the holocaust happened, it did, theres empirical evidence to support it. However, the bible does not have empirical evidence, and the tradition of "god talked to somebody" is a common mythological theme, used throughout history again and again and again. It was even used 100 years ago with mormons (supposedly, joseph smith talked to god) same with muslims (apparently mohammed talked to the angel Gabrael) are you going to say these religions are wrong too? simply because you're not a part of them?

 

My point is, just because somebody says something happened doesn't mean it happened, everybody lies, therefore its safe to assume that some of the things written in the bible are lies. The whole book cant be true simply for the fact that its a book. Its not historical, the Adam and Eve story is in direct contradiction with the actual age of the world, and in direct contradiction to science. The mere fact that woman came from a man's rib is ludicrous. All I'm saying is that when one examines the evidence, the bible is on pretty damn shaky ground.

Evidence coming and go some of them destroyed by nature and some of the by human hands and not always the historical based on evidence…

You want some evidence for the ancient bible existing?

Here you go… http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scroll...ry/library.html

 

Originally Jewish scholarship was oral. Rabbis expounded and debated the law and discussed the bible without the benefit of written works (other than the biblical books themselves.) This situation changed drastically, however, mainly as the result of the destruction of the Jewish commonwealth in the year 70 C.E. and the consequent upheaval of Jewish social and legal norms. As the Rabbis were required to face a new reality—mainly Judaism without a Temple and Judea without autonomy—there was a flurry of legal discourse and the old system of oral scholarship could not be maintained. It is during this period that Rabbinic discourse began to be recorded in writing.

 

The earliest recorded oral law may have been of the midrashic form, in which halakhic discussion is structured as exegetical commentary on the Pentateuch. But an alternative form, organized by subject matter instead of by biblical verse, became dominant about the year 200 C.E., when Rabbi Judah haNasi redacted the Mishnah.

 

Talmud Bavli (the "Babylonian Talmud") is comprised of the Mishnah and the Babylonian Gemara. This Gemara is a synopsis of more than 300 years of analysis of the Mishna in the Babylonian Academies. Tradition ascribes the initial editing of the Babylonian Talmud to two Babylonian sages, Rav Ashi and Ravina.

 

The question as to when the Gemara was finally put into its present form is not settled among modern scholars. Some of the text did not reach its final form until around 700. Traditionally, the rabbis who edited the Talmud after the end of the Amoraic period are called the Saboraim or Rabanan Saborai. Modern scholars, also use the term Stammaim (Heb. = closed, vague or an unattributed source) for the authors of unattributed statements in the Gemara.

 

So you still think the bible is collection of lies?

 

Adam and Eve and other “biblical story” is not in direct contradiction with the actual age of the world because we “know” (or shell I say belief) that GOD creates the the universe and our world “natural” and “ancient” as it is with the dinosaur inside it etcetera.

The reason he do that is to examine our belief in him.

If GOD wasn’t creates the world “natural” and “ancient” what reason or what examination we have/get?

Well, the answer is nothing.

GOD creates us as human with passions, desire, and self-control smarter but also mindless but definitely not robots.

As we are human, GOD gives us the decision to choose between good or bad.

The consequence is what we are and what do we this.

Yes, and in it’s look direct contradiction to science. But here it is our examination to believe only to the sciences or to believe firs in GOD and our ancient Rabbis.

 

As probably you know the scientist always change there mine about the source of the world and some other physics law.

Be patient about 50 to 200 years in the future and you will get new collection of physics law that some of them standing invers to the existing physics law that we currently knows.

But the bible exists and lives among us more then 3,500 years and there is nothing stronger and standing then the truth.

[gwprod12]

The dead sea scrolls date from around the first century AD. There is no biblical documentation in existence that dates to 1500 BC. That's a fact.

 

In two thousand years, if no evidence exists of the holocaust, it will be considered a legend. Does that mean it didnt happen? No, of course not. But, who's to say that purple bunnies from the 9th dimension didnt run around causing chaos in Greece 3000 years ago? If belief is evidence, then Angry Purple Bunnies with Designs on Troy are factual.

 

If you are looking for a factual basis of your beliefs, look for disinterested evidence. An example is Josephus' recording of Jesus' crucifixion in Antiquities. He had no reason to tell fibs to support some belief structure. He is therefore credible. Just as ancient heiroglyphs recording the events of exodus would be disinterested evidence of the event.

[yossicl]

The dead sea scrolls date from around the first century AD. There is no biblical documentation in existence that dates to 1500 BC. That's a fact.

Did you read my post???

Originally Jewish scholarship was oral. Rabbis expounded and debated the law and discussed the bible without the benefit of written works.

 

In two thousand years, if no evidence exists of the holocaust, it will be considered a legend. Does that mean it didnt happen? No, of course not. But, who's to say that purple bunnies from the 9th dimension didnt run around causing chaos in Greece 3000 years ago? If belief is evidence, then Angry Purple Bunnies with Designs on Troy are factual.

 

If you are looking for a factual basis of your beliefs, look for disinterested evidence. An example is Josephus' recording of Jesus' crucifixion in Antiquities. He had no reason to tell fibs to support some belief structure. He is therefore credible. Just as ancient heiroglyphs recording the events of exodus would be disinterested evidence of the event.

I'm not arguing on others belief it's not my purpose and this is not the issue.

The issue is GOD existing and if praying to GOD is helping or not.

But even if you look on others belief you will see that all of them established on believe on higher divinity power beyond of the humanity. We call it GOD the name is not so important.

So what do you say all the humanity is stupid?

Thousands years of humanity life was based on fib?

You should know one basic fact “the lie have no legs”.

As I already said "the bible exists and lives among us more then 3,500 years and there is nothing stronger and standing then the truth".

 

Edit: There are a lot of evidence shows that prayer to GOD was helping and it doesn’t concern to one religion or another. But also it doesn’t mean that one religion is above other religion.

We believe that we should pray directly to GOD and ask him directly without “moderator” while in this issue it should be no different between religions.

Like the Jews, Christians and Muslim should pray to GOD and ask him for peace on earth.

[killbot1000]

Did you read my post???

I'm not arguing on others belief it's not my purpose and this is not the issue.

The issue is GOD existing and if praying to GOD is helping or not.

But even if you look on others belief you will see that all of them established on believe on higher divinity power beyond of the humanity. We call it GOD the name is not so important.

So what do you say all the humanity is stupid?

Thousands years of humanity life was based on fib?

You should know one basic fact “the lie have no legs”.

As I already said "the bible exists and lives among us more then 3,500 years and there is nothing stronger and standing then the truth".

 

Edit: There are a lot of evidence shows that prayer to GOD was helping and it doesn’t concern to one religion or another. But also it doesn’t mean that one religion is above other religion.

We believe that we should pray directly to GOD and ask him directly without “moderator” while in this issue it should be no different between religions.

Like the Jews, Christians and Muslim should pray to GOD and ask him for peace on earth.

 

 

No, I don't think humans are stupid, but I do think the vast majority of us are irrational, we have no regard for basic concepts such as logic and science. We are willing to desperately cling to a superstition in the snowballs chance in hell hope that we don't just blink out of existence when we die, this superstition will take precedent, even when theres a mountain of evidence to say otherwise stabbing you in the face. The prospect of that scares me, and a lot of other people I'm sure. Belief in a deity gives people a band-aid that they can slap on their brain to make them feel better so they don't get overwhelmed by this concept of lack of control.

 

Also, there are other faiths besides those of the Abrahamic tradition (christianity, Islam, Judaism). Many others believe in many deities such as Hinduism, and some, like Buddhism don't even have a god at all (its all about finding inner peace). But the objective in all of these is the same, to find some sort of way to get some kind of control on our own lives, so we don't feel hopeless and alone.

 

Not all people need this however, some people do better without boundaries. I've seen Christians, Muslims, and Jews for that matter who have half as many morals than I do and I'm an Atheist, my question is that if those people aren't even going to bother to follow their own faith, then why bother having one to begin with. Plus were taught that were sinful, evil creatures. What kind of message is that to send to people?

 

Shouldn't we be sending a message of balance, try to lead a balanced life? Instead of pure asceticism as the ideal? or complete decadence and domination as the ideal? Why cant there be some kind of middle ground?

[yossicl]

No, I don't think humans are stupid, but I do think the vast majority of us are irrational, we have no regard for basic concepts such as logic and science. We are willing to desperately cling to a superstition in the snowballs chance in hell hope that we don't just blink out of existence when we die, this superstition will take precedent, even when theres a mountain of evidence to say otherwise stabbing you in the face. The prospect of that scares me, and a lot of other people I'm sure. Belief in a deity gives people a band-aid that they can slap on their brain to make them feel better so they don't get overwhelmed by this concept of lack of control.

 

Also, there are other faiths besides those of the Abrahamic tradition (christianity, Islam, Judaism). Many others believe in many deities such as Hinduism, and some, like Buddhism don't even have a god at all (its all about finding inner peace). But the objective in all of these is the same, to find some sort of way to get some kind of control on our own lives, so we don't feel hopeless and alone.

 

Not all people need this however, some people do better without boundaries. I've seen Christians, Muslims, and Jews for that matter who have half as many morals than I do and I'm an Atheist, my question is that if those people aren't even going to bother to follow their own faith, then why bother having one to begin with. Plus were taught that were sinful, evil creatures. What kind of message is that to send to people?

 

Shouldn't we be sending a message of balance, try to lead a balanced life? Instead of pure asceticism as the ideal? or complete decadence and domination as the ideal? Why cant there be some kind of middle ground?

Being morality doesn’t limited to one religion or another that’s anybody knows (for example there are a lot of “Christians angels” helping the Jews from Nazi extermination during WWII).

But still you are ignoring the facts that there are a lot of evidence shows that pray to GOD was helping for sick and miserable peoples and also helping us to get back our lands.

You may say: Yes, yes… the UN helping you… But if you lock very careful you will found that since Israel was established, almost (in understatement) all the UN resolutions were against Israel even if her neighbor attacked Israel. Does it looks to you rational?

As we believe that GOD creates the universe and create us he also create the logic and science but who says that he is limited to the physics laws as we are?

Are you looking for humanity logic and science in something beyond of our percipience?

[killbot1000]

I think this video on prayer sums it up pretty nicely.

 

http://godisimaginary.com/video.htm

 

You see? You are clinging to your irrational superstition. You will be making up excuses for why you're right rather than looking at the situation objectively from an outside point of view. You seem to be so embroiled in your own country's affairs (seems as if you think Israel is the center of the civilized world...which its not).

 

I guess one cant reason with the unreasonable...

 

 

as a last note, many statistical studies have been done on prayer, and statistically, prayer doesn't do a damn thing.

[yossicl]

I think this video on prayer sums it up pretty nicely.

 

http://godisimaginary.com/video.htm

 

You see? You are clinging to your irrational superstition. You will be making up excuses for why you're right rather than looking at the situation objectively from an outside point of view. You seem to be so embroiled in your own country's affairs (seems as if you think Israel is the center of the civilized world...which its not).

 

I guess one cant reason with the unreasonable...

as a last note, many statistical studies have been done on prayer, and statistically, prayer doesn't do a damn thing.

By this video you are trying to tell me that the belief in prayer is a superstition and every answered prayer is a coincidence?

Well… I can give you hundreds and thousand of links that shows you that prayer is not superstition

Here is the first http://www.godhelpmeplease.com/The_Evidenc...Alive_and_Well/

Continue googling and you will find by yourself (if you need help, I'm here).

 

As s last note, there are many statistical studies shows prayer are really helping.

[gwprod12]

I think it's a coincidence. But even if it's not, prayer rarely works, either because God is busy or doesnt like the person praying or doesnt feel like doing what the prayer wants. God is a fickle ally indeed.

 

There are a few studies of prayer as an aid during medicine. But, if you look at them, you'll find that even though patients do better when being actively prayed for, they only do better when they know they're being prayed for. It's quackery. It's also a way of taking no responsibility. Let's say I've got a life-threatening, but curable disease. And a jehova's witness persuades me to use prayer as medicine. When it doesnt work and I'm dead, the person administering it will just say "it's God's will" and move on. PASS. Quackery indeed.