Israel and Palestine

[yossicl]

No need to wait 2000 yers to the future. The future is here...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3337818,00.html

[gameguy132]

yes i guess that he could have been seeing illusions or it was in his imagination, but if your dead, you wouldnt really know you are dead would you. So what are the chances of something that has so incredibly much to do with death as Angels coming to take him to heaven, compared to them being illusions, because thats what he hilluscinates every time he hilluscinates isnt it? or was it a coincidence, chances point to them being angels, but the most explainible reason would be hilluscinations... so i guess scientests would go for hilluscinations. But maybe one day, people will look down at us and see us as "cavemen" thinking "the reason is because thats what we know and what we know is right."... as the cavemen only knew fire as magic or a miracle, why would they think that flint on steel makes it ? that would be foolish to them. its a tottally unexplained reason for them, yet a reason that works and is alot more probable. theres an analogy for you.

[gwprod12]

Clinical death isnt the same thing as dead and buried. If you're revivable, you're not dead. Obviously.

 

Clinical death literally means that your heart and breathing have stopped. Since you cannot breath when your heart is not functioning, you are clinically dead when you have no heartbeat. However, the heart can be started back up, in which case you are no longer clinically dead.

 

Again, I'll reiterate, clinical death is not death.

 

Biological or brain death is something that no one ever recovers from.

 

EDIT: If I ever have a near-death experience, I'll be sure to tell you whether or not I saw angels or martian mad scientists.

[gameguy132]

Ok. That would be a cool experience actually, but very painful.

[yossicl]

My friend Ahmad got this E-mail (and forward it to me) and I would like to share it with you (I got his permission to do this).

 

 

Ahmad, my friend,

 

I've now finished reading Rubin's translation of the Quran. I now understand where you nurse this need to destroy, to control, to murder, and to inherit everything that doesn't belong to you. But come over here and I'll tell you something about the Land of Israel.

 

Never in its history did the Land of Israel belong to an Arab people or Arab sovereign. Many occupiers conquered it -- Greeks, Arabs, Persians, Romans, Turks, English -- all were occupiers but never owners. Always, under every conqueror, it remained the Land of Israel. And if you'll read your Quran you'll be surprised to discover that even your Prophet Muhammad thought that the Land of Israel belongs to the people of Israel.

 

Ultimately, the people of Israel, who were the only ones in history who held sovereignty here, returned to it. Every place that the Muslims have conquered has turned into the Valley of Tears.

 

Once it was the Fertile Crescent -- the Muslim conquest turned it into wasteland (because the growing of grapes wasn't fit for them).

 

The Land of Israel stood desolate for hundreds of years. There was a small Jewish population here and an even smaller Arab population.

 

The Turks hung posters in all the Arab lands that they were looking for menial workers with hands. And Arab menial workers came to serve the Turks. Some of them stayed.

 

The British, for their part, let tens of thousands of you come to live here and serve them without immigration permits.

 

At the end of the 19th century the Zionists began to rehabilitate this desolate land. There are many testimonies from travelers who passed through Israel and documented the bleakness, the ugliness, the swamps, the diseases, and the desolation that once was here (please read the book by Tristram or the book by Mark Twain).

 

The Jews turned this wretched place into something beautiful.

 

You, as you did for generations (and just like millions of you are doing now in Europe), came to live off of those who build and provide work.

 

And just as Europe doesn't belong to you, the State of Israel doesn't belong to you either.

 

Over the past century we tried to live with you and side-by-side with you. We even proposed partitioning with you the small portion that was left of our land.

 

That didn't work out.

 

You turned right around and tried to chop off our hands that were outstretched in peace.

 

We have here a minority of radical, self-righteous leftists (some of them sit on the High Court of Justice) and, in the name of defending civil rights and pluralism, they are permitting you to take over. The same process is happening in Europe.

 

There are 54 Muslim countries in the world (of which 22 are members of the Arab League) -- but not one of them, not even one, has succeeded in establishing a democratic government. But you are champions at infiltrating democratic governments and manipulating their soft underbelly, which is freedom of speech and the rights of the individual.

 

And as in Europe, which provided you with the possibility to come and become Europeans (even though your objective was to make Europe Muslim), the understanding is beginning to sink in that you are not friends but occupiers. This process is beginning here, too.

 

A quick glance at the map of the world leaves no doubt in anyone's heart that there is no need to establish a 23rd Arab country right smack dab in the middle of the tiny Jewish state.

 

Ultimately, you will find yourselves either in Jordan -- which is Palestine (two-thirds of the historic Land of Israel that the British gave to Abdullah the Bedouin), or in northern Sinai.

 

The people of Israel looks soft and ripe, but when it smells annihilation it becomes strong.

 

And the majority of the people already understand that your objective is our destruction.

 

And, by the way, it wasn't you who expelled the Egyptians. The Egyptians, in a simple, brilliant maneuver, got rid of you.

[gwprod12]

The Hebrews conquered that land, that had been the Canaanite's. If conquest doesnt confer ownership, then the Israelis dont own it either.

 

Simple logic.

[yossicl]

The Hebrews conquered that land, that had been the Canaanite's. If conquest doesnt confer ownership, then the Israelis dont own it either.

 

Simple logic.

Really?

I thought you believe the Bible is kind of figment story and not something you can rely on…

Now can you tell me pleas where those Canaanite's people that we conquered the land from them which it's very clear that they weren't Arabs – Palestinians – Muslims?

 

If there is no Canaanite's people then the land belong to us.

 

Very simple logic…

[killbot1000]

Really?

I thought you believe the Bible is kind of figment story and not something you can rely on…

Now can you tell me pleas where those Canaanite's people that we conquered the land from them which it's very clear that they weren't Arabs – Palestinians – Muslims?

 

If there is no Canaanite's people then the land belong to us.

 

Very simple logic…

 

First of all, the bible isnt reliable for anything relevant in todays world

 

second, The Canaanites were a mixture of people from the arabian penninsula, phoenicians, hittites, etc. a mishmash if you will.

 

and third, the land belongs to nobody, land in general doesnt belong to anybody...its just an illusion we like to tell ourselves, ownership of land is only Dependant on your ability to keep it from others who want it, if you fail, the land belongs to them now, etc.

 

and fourth, dont speak of logic please, you sully the word

 

simple logic...

[yossicl]

First of all, the bible isnt reliable for anything relevant in todays world

 

second, The Canaanites were a mixture of people from the arabian penninsula, phoenicians, hittites, etc. a mishmash if you will.

 

and third, the land belongs to nobody, land in general doesnt belong to anybody...its just an illusion we like to tell ourselves, ownership of land is only Dependant on your ability to keep it from others who want it, if you fail, the land belongs to them now, etc.

 

and fourth, dont speak of logic please, you sully the word

 

simple logic...

I've just used gwprod12 term.

If you don't like it nobody force you to read my posts.

Have a nice day/evening.

[gwprod12]

Well, since obviously the canaanites dont exist as a people (the hebrews committed genocide against them), and since the canaanites cannot claim land when they dont exist, all the palestinians have to do is commit genocide against the israeli people, thus eliminating the previous owners and therefore taking possession. Am I following you correctly, yossicl? ;-p

 

Since clearly the Israeli ownership of their territory (according to you) is based on previous occupancy, having slaughtered the residents before them, how can the attempt of the Palestinians to obliterate the Israeli people to gain ownership be incorrect, or wrong? What's good for the goose is good for the gander, one might say.

[yossicl]

Well, since obviously the canaanites dont exist as a people (the hebrews committed genocide against them), and since the canaanites cannot claim land when they dont exist, all the palestinians have to do is commit genocide against the israeli people, thus eliminating the previous owners and therefore taking possession. Am I following you correctly, yossicl? ;-p

 

Since clearly the Israeli ownership of their territory (according to you) is based on previous occupancy, having slaughtered the residents before them, how can the attempt of the Palestinians to obliterate the Israeli people to gain ownership be incorrect, or wrong? What's good for the goose is good for the gander, one might say.

No you are not correct.

Simply, there is no evidence or mention in the Bible or any other historical reminder that the Hebrews committed genocide against them. Yes there was war between the Hebrews to the Canaanites since the land was bought by Abraham (not to mention that GOD promises the land to the Hebrew because you don’t like to here that) anyway some of the Canaanites decide to become Hebrew (nobody forced them) and some of them Just leaves the land because of the war and disappears in the historical obscurity but it clearly there was no genocide against them.

 

So it's clear that your conclusion based on nothing.

 

Edit: If we continue with your logical though. Since the conflict was between the Hebrews to the Canaanites then the Palestinian got nothing to do here and nothing to do with us.

[gwprod12]

Abraham did not buy the land of Israel from anyone. Dont lie to yourself, it's pathetic. As for God promising it, well, who's to say, for sure?

 

If the Hebrews did not destroy the canaanites, there must still be some around. Let us find them, and return to them their rightful land.

 

Your false logic is what has led us down this path. By stating that the Palestinians deserve nothing because the hebrews are prior tenants, you set up a scenario where even previous tenants, by appearing, and claiming the land, would force you to leave it. It's this same childish game, over and over again, and everyone in the world is tired of it.

[yossicl]

Abraham did not buy the land of Israel from anyone. Dont lie to yourself, it's pathetic. As for God promising it, well, who's to say, for sure?

 

Genesis Chapter 13:

14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him: 'Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art, northward and southward and eastward and westward; 15 for all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. 16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth; so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. 17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for unto thee will I give it.' 18 And Abram moved his tent, and came and dwelt by the terebinths of Mamre, which are in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD.

 

Genesis Chapter 23:

1 And the life of Sarah was a hundred and seven and twenty years; these were the years of the life of Sarah. 2 And Sarah died in Kiriatharba--the same is Hebron--in the land of Canaan; and Abraham came to mourn for Sarah, and to weep for her. 3 And Abraham rose up from before his dead, and spoke unto the children of Heth, saying: 4 'I am a stranger and a sojourner with you: give me a possession of a burying-place with you, that I may bury my dead out of my sight.' 5 And the children of Heth answered Abraham, saying unto him: 6 'Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty prince among us; in the choice of our sepulchres bury thy dead; none of us shall withhold from thee his sepulchre, but that thou mayest bury thy dead.' 7 And Abraham rose up, and bowed down to the people of the land, even to the children of Heth. 8 And he spoke with them, saying: 'If it be your mind that I should bury my dead out of my sight, hear me, and entreat for me to Ephron the son of Zohar, 9 that he may give me the cave of Machpelah, which he hath, which is in the end of his field; for the full price let him give it to me in the midst of you for a possession of a burying-place.' 10 Now Ephron was sitting in the midst of the children of Heth; and Ephron the Hittite answered Abraham in the hearing of the children of Heth, even of all that went in at the gate of his city, saying: 11 'Nay, my lord, hear me: the field give I thee, and the cave that is therein, I give it thee; in the presence of the sons of my people give I it thee; bury thy dead.' 12 And Abraham bowed down before the people of the land. 13 And he spoke unto Ephron in the hearing of the people of the land, saying: 'But if thou wilt, I pray thee, hear me: I will give the price of the field; take it of me, and I will bury my dead there.' 14 And Ephron answered Abraham, saying unto him: 15 'My lord, hearken unto me: a piece of land worth four hundred shekels of silver, what is that betwixt me and thee? bury therefore thy dead.' 16 And Abraham hearkened unto Ephron; and Abraham weighed to Ephron the silver, which he had named in the hearing of the children of Heth, four hundred shekels of silver, current money with the merchant. 17 So the field of Ephron, which was in Machpelah, which was before Mamre, the field, and the cave which was therein, and all the trees that were in the field, that were in all the border thereof round about, were made sure 18 unto Abraham for a possession in the presence of the children of Heth, before all that went in at the gate of his city. 19 And after this, Abraham buried Sarah his wife in the cave of the field of Machpelah before Mamre--the same is Hebron--in the land of Canaan. 20 And the field, and the cave that is therein, were made sure unto Abraham for a possession of a burying-place by the children of Heth.

 

If the Hebrews did not destroy the canaanites, there must still be some around. Let us find them, and return to them their rightful land.

 

Come on go ahead and find them…

Edited December 12, 2006 by yossicl

[gwprod12]

The canaanites are a group of disperate peoples ruled by the Phoenicians. The lebanese people, among others, are the descendants of the phoenicians. Give Israel to the Lebanese, since it was taken away from them by the Hebrews. You, of course, will say "Prove that the lebanese are descendants of the canaanites" and I will say "prove that you are the descendant of an inhabitant of Israel before the rebellion against rome. They cant, and you cant.

 

You can make up any lies and half-truths to justify the Israeli dominion. Not a one is valid. Israel exists, but, just as the United States exists, it has no moral justification. And frankly, if you must look every which way but loose to discover a reason why the Palestinians are evil animals who deserve nothing, you only prove you're no better than they are.

 

As to your bible passage... where does it say that Abraham bought the land of canaan?

[yossicl]

The canaanites are a group of disperate peoples ruled by the Phoenicians. The lebanese people, among others, are the descendants of the phoenicians. Give Israel to the Lebanese, since it was taken away from them by the Hebrews. You, of course, will say "Prove that the lebanese are descendants of the canaanites" and I will say "prove that you are the descendant of an inhabitant of Israel before the rebellion against rome. They cant, and you cant.

 

You can make up any lies and half-truths to justify the Israeli dominion. Not a one is valid. Israel exists, but, just as the United States exists, it has no moral justification. And frankly, if you must look every which way but loose to discover a reason why the Palestinians are evil animals who deserve nothing, you only prove you're no better than they are.

 

As to your bible passage... where does it say that Abraham bought the land of canaan?

It’s very easy… there are thousand archeological evidences not to mention the Bible!

And the Lebanese people are no descendants of the Phoenicians they are part of other Arabs tribes also there is no single similar or imagination Phoenicians culture in the Lebanese culture while our religious culture wasn’t changed at all even in one bit.

 

The Palestinians have 22 large and big Arabs lands that most of them are empty but we have a little tiny country. So there is no single similarity between us to them. They are so barbarians that also kill their children and babies.

 

Regarding “Abraham bought the land”. I believe that you know how to read it’s all written in my bible passage so don’t be lazy…

Edited December 13, 2006 by yossicl

[gwprod12]

So, what you're saying is that Abraham bought the entirety of the land of Israel ;-p

 

Are you sure you arent making a joke? Besides, so what if he did buy the entirety of Israel for a bag of silver... you arent his descendant. So how can you be entitled to his land?

[yossicl]

So, what you're saying is that Abraham bought the entirety of the land of Israel ;-p

No, I didn’t say that but I see that you know how to read when you want to…

Are you sure you arent making a joke? Besides, so what if he did buy the entirety of Israel for a bag of silver... you arent his descendant. So how can you be entitled to his land?

Abraham father of Yitzhak father of Jacob (also called Israel) father of the 12 Israel tribes… So who make a joke here?

[oregano]

No need to wait 2000 yers to the future. The future is here...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3337818,00.html

 

Israel will make sure Iran doesnt get nukes, they have bombed reactors and stuff before. I believe Iran is Israel's biggest threat, and i think we can all agree on that. Iran will never be able to destroy israel (or God, i hope so).

 

Are you sure you arent making a joke? Besides, so what if he did buy the entirety of Israel for a bag of silver... you arent his descendant. So how can you be entitled to his land?

 

well, technically, if you have pure jewish heritage (you didnt convert, neither did like, one of your grandparents who then made their kids jewish, etc.) you would be a descendant of abraham

and even if he didnt buy it, the jews were living there for a long time, and were kicked off

so it is our land, and we should be allowed to live their

[gwprod12]

The point I'm making is that if called before a court of inquiry, neither yourself nor yossicl could provide documentation proving that your ancestors owned land in what is now Israel. If the legal reason for the existence of Israel is that Hebrews used to own the land... well, they werent the first. So, when people who owned the land before the hebrews show up, the Israelis will, of course, acknowledge the superiority of their claim, and leave.

[yossicl]

The point I'm making is that if called before a court of inquiry, neither yourself nor yossicl could provide documentation proving that your ancestors owned land in what is now Israel. If the legal reason for the existence of Israel is that Hebrews used to own the land... well, they werent the first. So, when people who owned the land before the hebrews show up, the Israelis will, of course, acknowledge the superiority of their claim, and leave.

The point is there is no “other people who owned the land before the Hebrews show up” especially not the people who call themselves Palestinian.

 

As for your statement “neither yourself nor yossicl could provide documentation proving that your ancestors owned land in what is now Israel”.

Well you make yourself naive. There are thousands archeological evidence shows that we are the owner land in what is now and was Israel.

It is also documented in the Bible (new and old Testaments) and surprise even in the Qur'an ( http://www.templemount.org/quranland.html ) it is clearly mention that the land of Israel belong to Jews.

The Palestinian people have no rights to demand our land especially the Muslims believers.

[gwprod12]

Okay, we'll play your game. I am directly descended from canaanites. Archaeology, and the Bible, both claim that Canaanites lived in Canaan before the tribes of Israel did. Since you require no evidence proving your direct ancestor owned land there, neither do I. Get off my land.

[yossicl]

Okay, we'll play your game. I am directly descended from canaanites. Archaeology, and the Bible, both claim that Canaanites lived in Canaan before the tribes of Israel did. Since you require no evidence proving your direct ancestor owned land there, neither do I. Get off my land.

It’s ridiculous, we are talking about real life and real history and you talk about stupid games?

Start here http://www.hum.huji.ac.il/Dinur/links/Archaeology.htm and maybe you’ll learn something on Archaeological Excavations Relating to Jewish History.

 

Edit: Oh and btw, can you talk and read Canaanites language as I can talk and read perfectly Hebrew as my direct ancestors were talking 3,500 years ago?

Do you have any relation to the Canaanite's culture as I do have Hebrew's culture as my direct ancestors have?

If not get off my back.

Edited December 19, 2006 by yossicl

[gwprod12]

The logic of your argument is that you, YOU have a better claim to the land you live on than some palestinian, because your supposed ancestors, whose providence you cannot prove in any way, occupied the land before the ancestors of the palestinian. So, I say to you, since my ancestors, of which providence I have equal proof of, predate your theoretical ancestors, you must therefore get off my land, and go live somewhere else.

 

If you want to make the perfectly legitimate argument that Israel belongs to the Israelis because the Israelis have better guns than the Palestinians, that would have some sort of force. But dont try to pretend you have a moral argument. You dont.

 

I find it hard to believe that the ability to read hebrew is a necessary requirement for inheriting your ancestor's posessions. I also find it hard to believe that reading hebrew thus proves that someone who was alive 2000 years ago is your direct ancestor. For all anyone knows, you have no ancestor who ever lived in the middle east in antiquity. P R O V E you do. Heh. In fact, since Israel is a multi-cultural secular society, there can be no religious or cultural tests associated with legal proceedings. I neednt know anything about my ancient ancestor's culture, nor his language in order to inherit his possessions.

 

EDIT: The intellectual dishonesty, among the powerful in Israel generally and in the west-bank settlers specifically, is the primary reason why people want to blow you off the face of the earth. Not being an anti-Semite, even I have a small feeling of eradicating this zealotry. I know if I was your victim, I wouldnt be hesitant about strapping C4 to myself and vaporizing you.

Edited December 19, 2006 by gwprod12

[killbot1000]

My main question...is who would want Israel anyway? Its a small, fairly insignificant piece of land (in real world considerations anyway). Why cant either the Palestinians or the Israelis find an island somewhere and live there...seriously...this is pathetic

[yossicl]

The logic of your argument is that you, YOU have a better claim to the land you live on than some palestinian, because your supposed ancestors, whose providence you cannot prove in any way, occupied the land before the ancestors of the palestinian. So, I say to you, since my ancestors, of which providence I have equal proof of, predate your theoretical ancestors, you must therefore get off my land, and go live somewhere else.

 

If you want to make the perfectly legitimate argument that Israel belongs to the Israelis because the Israelis have better guns than the Palestinians, that would have some sort of force. But dont try to pretend you have a moral argument. You dont.

 

I find it hard to believe that the ability to read hebrew is a necessary requirement for inheriting your ancestor's posessions. I also find it hard to believe that reading hebrew thus proves that someone who was alive 2000 years ago is your direct ancestor. For all anyone knows, you have no ancestor who ever lived in the middle east in antiquity. P R O V E you do. Heh. In fact, since Israel is a multi-cultural secular society, there can be no religious or cultural tests associated with legal proceedings. I neednt know anything about my ancient ancestor's culture, nor his language in order to inherit his possessions.

 

EDIT: The intellectual dishonesty, among the powerful in Israel generally and in the west-bank settlers specifically, is the primary reason why people want to blow you off the face of the earth. Not being an anti-Semite, even I have a small feeling of eradicating this zealotry. I know if I was your victim, I wouldnt be hesitant about strapping C4 to myself and vaporizing you.

FYI all the Jews around the world even if they have different "home-land-culture” are praying the same prayer with the same holidays from generation to generation as our ancestor where doing 3,500 years ago in the land of Israel.

So maybe my argument doesn’t fit to your opinion and your arguments are empty... but who cares?