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ISLAM - general & cartoons


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#21
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Darwinism is not a religion. (for once I agree with johan - wow).

The Oxford Diction defines it as:
1. belief in a superhuman controlling power, esp. in a personal God or gods entitled to obedience and worship. 2. expression of this in worship. 3. particular system of faith in worship.4. things that one is devoted to.

Now if one was to think Darwinism or evolution was a religion then they would look at example 3 or 4.
From 3, we know that no one can or does worship evolution. There is nothing to worship. No ‘reward’ is every gained.
And from 4, someone may believe but one again being devoted to it brings no purpose as there are no ‘rewards’. And so weather you believe in it or not Darwin could not care less. So it’s not a religion. It is a Theory though as some have already stated better than I.

It is a comfortable place to lie in if you're undecided or are not bothered with religion (of any kind). But to me and billions of other people of faith it's nonsense. And some of them have even argued against it with compelling arguments. I with my own untrained head can ask a few questions and come to a dead stop. I remember when I was 12 I was wondering if Islam was forced onto be. Is there a truer way of life? After a while I realised it gave me more answers and less questions than anything else could. I don't assume to know all religions but in my experience it did. But that's a different story.

Darwinism basically says (in my understanding):
Life started in the sea as microbes. And continued evolving and here we are billions of years later. Now lets just for a sec say THAT IS TRUE. And lets go back a few billion years before life was created and ask yourself how was the sun, the moon, the earth and the start of all other "materials" in the universe created? Oh yeah. THE BIG BANG! That’s a great answer.
But wait! The Big Bang THEORY is that huge amounts of gas (plasma) collected in some place in the universe. And as these were pulled together by the shear force of the gravity they were creating they compressed closer. As they squeezed closer they got hotter and hotter building pressure. Eventually came a point where the force exerted due to the pressure was greater than the force of gravity pulling everything closer and BANG. You got an explosion which we call the BIG BANG.
Fine I accept that but what you have to ask yourself (and this is the key), Where Did All This Gas Come From In The Beginning? This gas (plasma), which was vital for the big bang, where did it originate from? How can it be that it was there before the big bang (which is supposed to be the beginning of all things)? SOMETHING CAN NOT COME FROM NOTHING. So what does that mean? There must be a CREATOR (Allah in my belief). It doesn't matter (here) if you think the creator let us evolve or not but the materials (gas - plasma) in the universe got there somehow. It can't just be dumped! I'm a man who understands science quiet well. But here science can't give us any answers.
As johan explained, theories can change with the wind. One minute earth is in the centre of the universe and the next we're not. And the same goes for many other such as the world being flat.
So is it wise to put your ultimate fate on something which has no clear answer?

Sure some of you are going to look at this light heartedly but I’m telling you my physics lecturers were not able to answer this. And they are cleaver people, I tell you!

Related: The Conservation Of Energy (a physical law) states that "energy can not be created or destroyed". This is a scientific fact. If it can not be created or destroyed, how did it get there?

I WILL ADD THE MIRACLES FROM THE QUR'AN AGAIN LATER, AS THIS MADE THE POST TOO LONG!

#22
henbjo

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Well, your "proof" from the Qur'ân isn't any more reliable than any other theory. No theory has been confirmed scientifically, and will probably never be. So calling it proof is a bit dramatic in my opinion.

And when you say that it must have been a creator because SOMETHING CAN NOT COME FROM NOTHING, I ask you: Where did that creator come from? Did the creator just pop out of the black? Did the creator come out of nothing? This doesn't make sense to me.

My opinion is that all religious explanations of how life started are fabricated to fit and make sense. And ,obviously, they do. That's excactly why so many believe them to be the truth. I don't think humans are able to understand everything, for instance eternity and that the universe always has existed, which is my belief, even though I don't understand it. Because nothing just happens on earth without any action beforehand, we are so into that way of thinking, that we seem to think the same about the universe, which I believe is the reason why we don't have any definite answer to this. It's beyond our comprehension. At least yet. Ask any physichist or other scientist who is neutral to religion, and you'll get the same answer.

And by the way, the Big Bang theory is not the only theory about our solar system's creation out there, you know.. For instance the Oligarch theory which has become a hot potato along with the findings of the new planet Xena and many other giant asteroids, makes just as much sense.

#23
brainbone

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AcePlayer; while I appreciate the time you put into this, unfortunately, I haven’t the time to pick trough each statement, one by one. It took too much of my time just reading them.

All of them share one thing in common. Vagueness. " iron in which there lies great force and which has many uses for mankind…". You can read anything you want into this, but in no way does it directly say what you imply.

#24
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Continue discussion of origins of life in this thread http://forum.osx86pr...29&hl=evolution

Lets keep this one for the whole cartoon issue.

#25
brainbone

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Lets keep this one for the whole cartoon issue.


Unless I'm mistaken, this thread is about Islam in general (and the cartoon).

#26
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Fair enough.

#27
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LOL. I meant to write "ISLAM - general & general" and not "ISLAM - cartoons & general" so I can understand 0uch!p0tat0's comments. But I’m glad brainbone understood what i meant.
"Islam in general (and the cartoon)".

Thanks.

I know the post was a long one but I really am interested in your opinions on the matter after you have read it all please. Take your time. I'll be here. I want to know about peoples own views, how they differ from mine and yours. :gathering: That way we help each other in a wider and fuller and better understand of Real Life™ :hysterical:.
And Islam in particular.

That’s what I’m hoping the thread is going to achieve.

#28
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Well i read some of the quotes from your post before you edited it, can i ask why the qur'an uses the nominative case of the first-person plural pronoun. i.e who is "we"? I know muslims do not believe in the trinity. Is it just a case of Pluralis Majestatis?

#29
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Islam in the modern sense does post date Christianity and Judaism, in that the prophet of the current (and last – i.e. no more prophets) Ummah (Muslim nation) is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

However the first Muslim on earth was not Muhammad (pbuh) but Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham - pbuh) as he was the first to submit totally to Allah. And so it can be said Ibrahim (pbuh) is the father of Islam. Ibrahim (pbuh) had 8 sons; the first of whom was Prophet Isma’il (Ishmael - pbuh). The Prophet Muhammad was a descendant of Isma’il (pbuh). The Jews and therefore Christians also, descended from Prophet Ishaq (Isaac - pbuh), the second son of Ibrahim (pbuh).

Allah created man to worship him and to lead a virtuous life based on his teachings. But how can man know his role or purpose if he does not receive guidance?
This guidance has been sent from Allah through prophets, from the beginning of human existence (i.e. from Adam - pbuh). All prophets carried the same message from Allah, “There is no deity worthy of worship except Allah”.

The Qur’an mentions 25 Prophets and Messengers * by name. But it is unclear as to the exact number that have been sent. One hadith states it as 224,000 while another as 124,000. Whether the number was 224,000 or 124,000 is not important. What is essential is that no land, people or period was neglected, prophets were sent to all.
Allah in the Qur’an says:

“There never was a people without a Warner having lived among them” (Qur'an, 35:24)
and
“and We sent among every people a Messenger” (Qur'an, 16:36)

So what this means is that on the Day of Judgement, when each individual will have to account for his time on earth, he will not be able to say “Allah I had no warner”.

If some of you are wondering what if there is a case where (just maybe) someone was not warned (directly or indirectly). What happens then?
Allah in the Qur’an says:

“We never punish until We have sent a Messenger” (Qur'an, 17:15)

How just and merciful is Allah! But remember Allah has made it clear that this excuse will be unfounded, because every nation has received a prophet (Qur'an, 35:24) and (Qur'an, 16:36).

The date of Prophet Muhammad’s (pbuh) birth is generally agreed as being 570CE in Makkah, Saudi Arabia. His father, Abdullah, died several weeks before his birth and at the age of six, he lost his mother Amina also and so became an orphan. His grandfather Abd al Muttalib became his guardian but passed away within two years when Muhammad (pbuh) was eight. He now came under the care of his uncle Abu Talib, the new leader of the Hashim clan of the Quraish tribe, the most powerful in Mecca.

During his adult life he spent much time in a cave (Hira) near Mecca in meditation and thought. It is here in 610CE that while meditating The Angel Jibrail (Gabriel) appeared to him. Jibrail said to him "Iqraa", meaning Read or Recite. But as Muhammad (pbuh) was illiterate said to Jibrail “I am not a reader”. Jibrail then embraced him until he reached the limit of his endurance and after releasing said: "Iqraa." Muhammad’s (pbuh) answer was the same as before. Jibrail repeated the embrace for the third time, and when The Angel Jibrail released him, he said to Muhammad (pbuh):

"Recite in the name of your Lord who created! He created man from that which clings. Recite; and thy Lord is most Bountiful, He who has taught by the pen, taught man what he knew not." (Qur’an, 96:1-4)

This was to be the start of his prophethood and the revelations of the Qur’an. His wife Khadijah was one of the first to believe. Abu Bakr, one of Muhammad's (pbuh) close friends was also another who believed in the very early stages of Islam. For the next 23 years as the revelations of the Qur’an came down from Allah through the Angel Jibrail, Muhammad (pbuh) spread the word of Allah. He was a poor man to begin with and he died a poor man in the year 632CE.

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is a friend of Allah and more importantly Allah is a friend of his. This friendship can not be stressed enough. But to go into it will mean me writing pages. There are many attributes that distinguish the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) from other Prophets (pbut). One that stands out and is most important is that Muhammad (pbuh) was a messenger for the whole of Mankind and Jinns. As stated above, all nations in history have received a messenger. But these messenger or prophets were specifically assigned for their people or their nation. Musa (Moses - pbuh) was sent for the Children of Israel as too was Isa (Jesus - pbuh). Muhammad (pbuh) in this sense is unique.

This then somewhat follows on to the second part which is that he is the final messenger in the line of messengers, to be sent from Allah.

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah and the final seal of the prophets" (Qur’an, 33:40)

As some of you may conclude, it means The Last Hour or Judgement Day is not as far away as is was once. The arrival and passing of the last messenger means the count down can, in a sense start (even though it always had been).

************************************************

*PROPHET (Nabi) and MESSENGER (Rasoul)
Prophet (Nabi) – One that brings scripture (books) from Allah, i.e. Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (pbut),
Messenger (Rasoul) – One who confirms the scriptures (books) and teaches it ways,

"God took a covenant from the PROPHETS, saying, "I will give you the SCRIPTURE AND WISDOM. Afterwards, a MESSENGER will come to CONFIRM all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you." (Qur’an, 3:81)

#30
paulmer2003

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I can't believe we have idiots and yes idiots, who think its ok to show cartoons of a prophet (any prophet - Jesus, Mosses, Adam) that will offend 1.6 billion Muslims is fine and encouraged.

There are caricatures of Jesus and such all over the place. I find the Islamic cartoons quite hillarious. I cant imagine a bunch of Christians or Jews or what ever going buck wild over a cartoon (Ive got nothing against Islam.. Its just the morons..)

#31
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A man is taking a walk in Central park in New York.
Suddenly he sees a little girl being attacked by a pit bull dog.
He runs over and starts fighting with the dog. He succeeds in killing the
dog and saving the girl's life. A policeman who was watching the scene walks
over and says: "You are a hero, tomorrow you can read it in all the
newspapers: 'Brave New Yorker saves the life of little girl'"
The man says: - "But I am not a New Yorker!"
"Oh ,then it will say in newspapers in the morning: 'Brave American saves
life of little girl'" – the policeman answers.
"But I am not an American!" – says the man.
"Oh, what are you then?
"The man says: - "I am a Saudi!
"The next day the newspapers say: "Islamic extremist kills innocent American dog.
:P

#32
ampTK

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There are caricatures of Jesus and such all over the place. I find the Islamic cartoons quite hillarious. I cant imagine a bunch of Christians or Jews or what ever going buck wild over a cartoon (Ive got nothing against Islam.. Its just the morons..)


The thing is that Christians, for example, don't have any particular issue with images of Christ, God or any other important figure of their religion (they make images of them by the millions), in contrast the simple fact of an image or cartoon of their prophet Muhammad is highly offending, and if the content of the cartoon itself is offending... go figure.

Therefore those cartoons can't be compared to similar ones depicting other religions. You could compare it with other things that produce the same effect, a Christian can see a funny joke about Christ on for example "Family Guy" and laugh at it (not all Christians, and those aren't particularly offending, granted, but you get the point).

---

On a different note I have always been curious of what Muslims believe about the historical Jesus, I'm a Catholic (or at least from a catholic background) so I know how Catholics and many other Christians see him, but about Muslims all I know it is a prophet for them, but that's it, the title. If any of the muslims on the forum could clarify this for me I would appreciate it.

#33
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I would say you have hit the spot. A better explanation than what I could manage and I thank you for that.

I'm not a scholar. I have to admit I know very little about Islam myself (given what I could know - and I guess should also). But I will try and answer your question.

Islam basically acknowledges (more or less as far as I can tell) all Jewish and Christian messenger (sons, saints etc) as prophets and messengers from Allah.
As mentioned earlier the Qur'an names 25 of them. But the total number is in the hundred thousands.
List of Prophets and Messenger in the Qur'an

Although all prophets and messengers were important, some had major key roles and so whose status is uniquely high. Moses (or Musa as we call him) is one of Allah's greatest Prophets. And like wise so is Jesus (or Isa).

Islam acknowledges Jesus’s unique entrance into this world from his mother Mary (or Mariam in Arabic). Something not even all Christians believe. We believe in his miracles. We believe in his original gospels (we consider the bible to have been corrupted over the centuries). Where Islam and Christianity part sides is as to what he is and what happened to him. Christians believe he is the son of God or God himself and that he was crucified.
Muslims on the other hand consider him to be one of the greatest messengers of Allah who still has a key role to play.
Muslims also don't believe he was crucified. Looking into Christianity a little myself, it seems his crucifixion was mentioned only by Paul, who never even saw Jesus. He also admitted the resurrection was his gospel (II Timothy 2:8) <remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel>

Muslim also believe Jesus (Isa) will return to earth in his second coming (as he isn't dead yet) to fight the Dajjal (anti-Christ) before the end of the world. He will marry have children and then pass away followed later by the end of the world. This is a VERY interesting area of study but one that is lengthy to explain.

I would implore all my Christian friends to read “Muslim Christian Dialogue” by H. M. Baagil, M.D. I am currently reading it myself and it is extremely interesting. I Kidd you not! This is a must for any Christian. Why? Because it WILL make you question your faith. I can almost guaranty it.
I have a book version. If someone wants this then let me know and I can try and post it out to them if I can get some more copies. But there is also a web version.
Muslim Christian Dialogue by H. M. Baagil, M.D

I know so many people that were practising Christians that are now Muslims, thanks to books such as these. Another great author who has done wonderful work is Ahmed Deedat. This great man has done much over the decades to show that Islam is the natural resting place for Christians. So come my friends.
Enter.

#34
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I haven't had time to read that entire link yet but it is interesting. However from what i have read so far the author seems to be compiling a collection of non sequitur statements based on small verses taken from the bible (often out of context - specifically with regard to his comments on Matthew 15:24)

My biggest problem with islam is the unwaivering belief that the Qur'an is the unabridged word of God on the basis that "it says so in the Qur'an".

You can explain the Bible and correct the Jewish and Christian prejudice with the context of the Qur'an. It is the last revealed book and has never been corrupted or adulterated. Its contents has been guaranteed by Allah in Surah 2:2: This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt... and also in Surah 15:9: No doubt We have sent down the Qur'an and surely We will guard it (from corruption).

How can you garantee the authenticity of a book based on a statement in that same book?

Whereas the bible has 66 books written by human beings who may have made mistakes. However since there are a collection of sources written over vast periods of time to corroborate each other it is far easier to establish it as truthful.

I also fail to understand the relevance of the authors statements about the falibility of prophets (Lot, Moses, etc) depicted in the bible, does Islam believe that all prophets are holy and perfect like God? From a christian perspective we accept that God used people who were not perfect to carry out his work (the only exception geing Jesus who was perfect & sinless), and that in their weakness God's power can be displayed.

Anyway an interesting insight into Islamic beliefs - hopefully i'll get a chance to finish reading that page sometime this week. Thanks AcePlayer

#35
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Freedom of speech/expression should not be practised "free of thought" IMHO, which is exactly what this pathetic so called artist did. We Muslims in general respect Jesus/Moses (pbuh) and accept them as prophets of Allah therefore wouldn't tolerate any offensive opinions (cartoons etc...) about them and in return we expect people of other beliefs to show the same level of sensitivity towards our belief and especially our prophet, Muhammed (S.A.V.).

Also do not forget that the cartoon is not just an insult to our prophet but an insult to all Muslims who try to live their lives the way prophet Muhammed (S.A.V.) did and who see him as a role model. If he is insulted as being a terrorist, it will inevitably offend millions of people who try to practise his teachings and follow the example that he has set. It is almost as bad as tagging all Muslims as terrorists, or even worse it can be just as bad accusing Islam of being the religion of terror which in itself couldn't have been any more far fetched from the reality of Islam.

The so-called western civilisation joyfully practising oh so wonderful freedom of speech and democracy is also a notion debateble in itself. In Germany Nazi ideology is banned to date, in 50's US of A people were hunted like scared rabbits if they were to even blush. To this day they keep people imprisoned for years without charges, way to go for human rights advocates, I wonder if those people are free to speak let alone speak their mind. One must understand that all countries/civilizations (even the ones that claim to be the knight in white shining armor of democracy ) have gone through many phases and when things are rosy it is easy to be self righteous. So spare us - the lowly mortal, intolerant eastern people - the " freedom of expression, genuine democracy the western way" speech please.

#36
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Come on now freedom of speach & the american dream is for everyone (well except blacks, asians, {censored}, ethnic minorities, commies, democrats, the poor, the weak, the middle east and anyone who doesn't know all four verses of "star spangled banner")

#37
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Salam bro. Just wanted to say what a great post you made.

Some people have said that the artist and newspaper did not intend to offend. This is one of the most idiotic comments I have heard. You don't need to be a Muslim to see this is complete nonsense. Some members of this forum thankfully see more clearly and agree that its intention was to offend. They have even tried to explain this to others who have their heads fitted on backwards. It may be true that the newspaper never expected things to blow in it face this badly but offence was intended. You don't put a bomb on a man head that represents more than a billion people and think it will not cause offence. You have got to be living in a cave your whole life to think that.

Others have tried to lighten the matter as paulmer2003 has attempted by explaining that cartoons of Jesus are made all the time. So what? Maybe you all don’t care about your Lord and Saviour but thank Allah we haven’t stooped down to your level. As andazp explained, picture of Jesus are created in the millions and so are cartoons of him (in a lesser quantity). But there are no images of Muhammad. Nothing official anyway. Surely this must have crossed the artists and newspapers idiotic minds. Also what many don't seem to know is that the same newspaper previously decided NOT TO PUBLISH cartoons of Jesus because it was CONSIDERED OFFENSIVE. Double standards or what? Kick the Muslim down but don't touch anyone else. Why is offending Islam tolerated in this day and age but not Christianity? Not that it should be either. The Danes are said to be a tolerant society. Tolerant maybe but dame hypocrites also.

By creating these cartoons all they are managing to do is reinforcing the idea that Islam and terrorism are linked. And because of this misunderstanding we’re attacked and abused on the streets. Muslim women are spat on the streets and even buses (as they have been) or their head scarf pulled. It's like the treatment Americans gave the blacks 50 years ago. I saw a program on the BBC where a Muslim white woman was being interviewed on the streets. As the interviewer and the Muslim woman were walking down the street, a man walked passed them and shouted “Muslims are terrorists” at the camera while standing near the Muslim woman. She almost at once began crying.

#38
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The Danish newspaper has said they would do the same for any religion. Islam, Christianity or anything else. What a pile of rubbish. They decided a few months back not to show a cartoon of Jesus as it would offend. So offending Christians is unthinkable but who cares about Muslims hearts.


So running 2 airliners into the WTC, and killing THOUSANDS of innocent people is ok? I don't know about you, but I don't know ANYONE who would embrace a Jihad religion that encourages taking innocent blood in the name of a holy war without cause.

I firsthand saw on Robot Chicken where they depicted a cartoon of Jesus slicing up Santa, and the Easter bunny with a samurai. I am a christian. I thought it was pretty sweet.

Is it ok to have an image of Jesus (pbuh) killing Iraq’s (women and children) published on worldwide papers, just because Bush-face is a Christian?


In your own words. "lol. That's all I have to say."

#39
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Keep it civil folks. :)

#40
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So running 2 airliners into the WTC, and killing THOUSANDS of innocent people is ok? I don't know about you, but I don't know ANYONE who would embrace a Jihad religion that encourages taking innocent blood in the name of a holy war without cause.


The point is the cartoon was just as offensive to moderate muslims who don't support jihadists/extremists and who didn't deserve that kind of insult. Even if you maintain they are too sensitive, the newspaper was well aware of the offense it would cause, and that extremists would use it as an excuse for violence - so it was a very poor judgement call by the newspaper editors who should have been sensible enoughn to invoke some self censorship.

I wish people would get over 9/11 (it was 5 years ago, move on!!) and stop using it as an excuse to attack a religion that arguably had nothing whatsoever to do with the event anyway.





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