ISLAM - general & cartoons

[Mebster]

I can't believe we have idiots and yes idiots, who think its ok to show cartoons of a prophet (any prophet - Jesus, Mosses, Adam) that will offend 1.6 billion Muslims is fine and encouraged. But on the other hand burning a Danish flag offending a small in comparison 6 million is unthinkable!

 

Is it ok to have an image of Jesus (pbuh) killing Iraq’s (women and children) published on worldwide papers, just because Bush-face is a Christian? The whole world (including the Muslims) would be in an uproar. Muslims don’t believ in offending people’s beliefs. Allah (God) has ordered us not to and doing so is a sin. We debate and argue, not insult.

 

The prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is more beloved to Muslims than our mothers. Than our selves. Who bled for us and you. Whose constant thought was with mankind’s wellbeing in terms of the hereafter. Why would you attack such a person and anger and upset so many people? And then call it freedom of expression. Isn't burning flags freedom of expression also then?

 

The Danish newspaper has said they would do the same for any religion. Islam, Christianity or anything else. What a pile of rubbish. They decided a few months back not to show a cartoon of Jesus as it would offend. So offending Christians is unthinkable but who cares about Muslims hearts.

 

I tell you right now, there is not a single person that I know or my friends know who their friends know that thinks this is ok. I would burn the Danish flag a million times over but I wouldn't say anything about Jesus. Why? Because that gets people in the heart. Where it really hurts. I mean I couldn't care less if you were burning my countries flag. As long as you weren’t burning my country.

 

Its sad that people as cleaver as they are here are so narrow minded as to only think of their own interests.

I ask you to just think for a moment and wonder to your self, is it worth seeing a person cry. Because that’s what it does.

[dponmac]

Ok, I know I'm walking a thin line, but you said, Allah doesn't oder you to offend people's beliefs. Ok I understand that part. But doesn't he also tell you to

"....Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in Allah, or in the Last Day, and who forbid not what Allah and His Apostle have forbidden....until they pay tribute..." (Sura 9:29).

 

Correct me if that is out of context, but isn't that part of the holy war? I'm not trying to offend, I'm just a little confused about that part, especially when you say is a cartoon of Jesus was put in the newspaper, I'm not to sure if the reaction from the Muslim community would be as you describe. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Religion is always a hard topic to discuss without offending, and like I said I'm not trying to do that.

[johan]

I feel that its impossible to have a society were there are no conflicting views on what is insulting and what’s not insulting

 

what’s insulting to me, may not be insulting to you

 

so in the end, what’s important to me . is that everybody is allowed to express his/her opinion

 

even if it may be insulting to somebody

 

I say, freedom of speech… except when saying things like.. kill hem/her, or getting people to do murder and things like that

 

So , for me the cartoons are a western tradition… we make fun of politicians , Christians, {censored} and what ever

 

So making fun of the prophet or a religion is okay for me.

 

Nobody forces Muslims to watch. or read the cartoons.

 

If I would say that insulting somebody’s believes is forbidden. Than the consequence would be that religion itself would be forbidden , as many people take offence of things stated in the Koran.. or even the bible.

[dponmac]

I think what made that such a big deal to muslims was that mohamad has never been in a picture/cartoon and i think that was how it's supposed to be, from what i've understood from the news.

[johan]

I think what made that such a big deal to muslims was that mohamad has never been in a picture/cartoon and i think that was how it's supposed to be, from what i've understood from the news.

 

 

 

sure if Muslims don't want to make a picture or drawing of the prophet.. that’s ok... but these rules only apply to Muslims.. not to non-believers

 

they try to force their way's on the free west.. and that’s wrong

 

I can drink alcohol, eat pig meat an make drawings of the prophet, as I am not a Muslim and as I do not have to life by there rules

[Swad]

This thread is going fine so far, so let's make sure we keep this discussion kind, sensitive, and understanding.

 

The last thread on this topic went downhill fast, but as long as the goal is to understand each other better, we'll be great.

 

Thanks.

[Mebster]

dponmac I very much appreciate you're delicateness in the issue as that is mainly what I ask for. And hopefully it will be a two way thing.

You have made a very interesting point and one (inshallah) I will try and answer.

 

This is the simplest explanation I could find of the versus

 

A close look at the above verses shall suffice as evidence to the fact that the directive, “Arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush for them” is given against those polytheists with whom the Muslims, under the leadership of the Prophet (pbuh), had entered into an agreement and who had disregarded this agreement and aided others against the Muslims. Obviously, these qualities cannot be generalized on all the polytheists of the world.

 

From this you can see it is refereeing to the ones that invalidated their agreement and in cases helped the opposition in killing Muslims.

 

The whole of the verse you stated earlier is:

[9:1] An ultimatum is herein issued from GOD and His messenger to the idol worshipers who enter into a treaty with you.

 

[9:2] Therefore, roam the earth freely for four months, and know that you cannot escape from GOD, and that GOD humiliates the disbelievers.

 

[9:3] A proclamation is herein issued from GOD and His messenger to all the people on the great day of pilgrimage, that GOD has disowned the idol worshipers, and so did His messenger. Thus, if you repent, it would be better for you. But if you turn away, then know that you can never escape from GOD. Promise those who disbelieve a painful retribution.

 

[9:4] If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them until the expiration date. GOD loves the righteous.

 

[9:5] Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

 

[9:6] If one of the idol worshipers sought safe passage with you, you shall grant him safe passage, so that he can hear the word of GOD, then send him back to his place of security. That is because they are people who do not know.

 

It also says to give them four months for them to repent their decision. If they do not and continue in their evil violent ways then to declare war (holy war as it’s based on religion) on them.

However if they repent then "you shall let them go". Also not to harm in anyway the ones who have kept to their treaty [9:4].

 

So it’s a bit like this. Let’s say UK and Germany are in war and UK had an agreement with France that it would not get involved. Or if it did would be on the UK's side. Then it's discovered that France has broken the agreement and is now helping Germany. The UK will then declare war on both Germany and France. Unless France Repents (as is the same of the sura).

 

In Islamic history the Muslims were constantly under attack by their neighbours (within the Middle East). So creating alliances was immensely important and it's documented in the Quran that at times these alliances were broken by the other side and betrayed.

 

One of Prophet Muhammads (pbuh) uncle (Abu Talib) was never a Muslim. The prophet didn't declare war on him. He loved his uncle and Abu Talib loved him. At Abu Talib death he stated it was one of the toughest times for him. The year in which his uncle died was called “The year of sorrow”.

 

In Islam there is an understanding for different customs and traditions but when these traditions because an offence to Islam is must be removed. I am ashamed to admit that if there was something about Jesus I probably would not do much. But that doesn't mean I would not care. Or at the least pray for it to be over.

 

johan seems to think we all still live in a time where Muslims live on the east and free thinking people live on the west. Boy that just isn't the case anymore. (You really have to grow up. I worry about you're students.) Muslims are everywhere. We're a part of your free society and society must change to accept us just like it did the black. I mean tell me this. Only 50 years ago black were being kicked around and considered lesser people. Do you know who the first muezzin (caller to pray) was? His name was Bilal and he was black. The first Muslim martyr was a woman. Tell me what is more in the past and outdated. A system which gave people rights and dignity 1400 years ago and still does, or one that only gave it around 50 years ago (and not too well). So much for your western culture johan.

 

And I have to say although we're the second largest religious group; our practicing numbers is larger than Christian’s practicing numbers. So we matter!

[johan]

johan seems to think we all still live in a time where Muslims live on the east and free thinking people live on the west. Boy that just isn't the case anymore. (You really have to grow up. I worry about you're students.) Muslims are everywhere. We're a part of your free society and society must change to accept us just like it did the black. I mean tell me this. Only 50 years ago black were being kicked around and considered lesser people. Do you know who the first muezzin (caller to pray) was? His name was Bilal and he was black. The first Muslim martyr was a woman. Tell me what is more in the past and outdated. A system which gave people rights and dignity 1400 years ago and still does, or one that only gave it around 50 years ago (and not too well). So much for your western culture johan.

 

And I have to say although we're the second largest religious group; our practicing numbers is larger than Christian’s practicing numbers. So we matter!

 

Sure moslims matter, who says they don’t . not me

 

Its not about not accepting Muslims.. well not to me it is

 

Haven't you read my post? All I stated is the importance of freedom of speech

 

Why don’t you react to my arguments…?

 

Don't you agree that if there was no freedom of speech in the west.. there would be no freedom of religion

 

the one needs the other

 

I am not anti moslim.. i thats what you think.. you are wrong

 

but i am pro freedom of speech...

[brainbone]

freedom of speech...

 

I agree with this.

 

It's a difficult thing to balance freedom of speech against the feelings of others, but when it comes down to it, freedom of speech needs to win out.

 

Forcing people to keep theses things to themselves can only foster resentment. By letting them speak up in public forum, you're able to understand their flawed point of view and, hopefully, counter point it. Over reacting to their chosen expression can only excite more resentment.

 

For Christians, what ever happen to "turn the other cheek"? For Muslims, how about "GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful"? For the rest of us, what about "Lighten up!"?

[DrJägermeister]

Not again a topic about nonsense

God doesn't exist, jesus was not the son of god but a charlatan and mohammad was definitively not a prophet

I believe in science not in fiction. The history shows us that every religion is a sect witch wants only money and power. That's not against muslims I also don't respect any other religion because they are all a danger for a free society.

http://www.petitiononline.com/antigod1/petition.html

 

Greetz from a godless German

[Mebster]

brainbone I believe in freedom of expression. I do. In the UK (where I live) they are passing bills that can stop people expressing them selves in various matters. Sure stopping some of these matters would be beneficial to me as they would stop people disgracing Islam but I would rather people did that out of choice and not a law.

 

Let me ask you this. If you think that "freedom of speech come above" all else then is it wrong for me to incite religious hatred saying "Christians should be killed" or even that "child porn is normal". The list can go on and all I have to do is use your weak argument and say freedom of speech comes above all. Of course I can't say this stuff. It offends people and it is clearly wrong. So why would I. I just don't understand why it's hard for people to keep hurtful things to them selves. If I can do it then why can't you. I mean could you imagine living in your ideal world where a person can come up to another and tell them that they hate them because their hair is too long, they're part of this religious group, they're fat, they DON'T like child porn. That’s a sick and world and one I wish I don't live to see. All you got to do is ask yourself what happens without some form of barriers on these matters.

 

DrJägermeister you're an idiot. If you don't want to be constructive then go away. I mean you really are an idiot in my view. Don't you ever wonder how mankind came into existence? Oh let me guess. Darwin. Looking into it from a religious point of view and see its weak point. I can even tell you some. People more cleaver than you and I have faiths of one form or another. I’m talking about scientist. What makes you special? In the Quran it talks of stuff that was discovered centuries later by scientists. The bible may have stuff too. Explain that. Dude go and get a proper education and then come back.

 

Forgive me if i offended people (except DrJägermeister -he's an idiot) i didn't mean to.

[DrJägermeister]

DrJägermeister you're an idiot.

You are right I'm an idiot but I don't give a {censored} about

 

Don't you ever wonder how mankind came into existence? Oh let me guess. Darwin.

Exactly, Darwin had explained us the evolution, that's the only truth. In the USA there are some fanatic catholics witch want to deny the evolution theory from Darwin in schools, that's a shame and I hope there are still enough intelligent US guys to stop them.

[johan]

brainbone I believe in freedom of expression. I do. In the UK (where I live) they are passing bills that can stop people expressing them selves in various matters. Sure stopping some of these matters would be beneficial to me as they would stop people disgracing Islam but I would rather people did that out of choice and not a law.

 

Let me ask you this. If you think that "freedom of speech come above" all else then is it wrong for me to incite religious hatred saying "Christians should be killed" or even that "child porn is normal". The list can go on and all I have to do is use your weak argument and say freedom of speech comes above all. Of course I can't say this stuff. It offends people and it is clearly wrong. So why would I. I just don't understand why it's hard for people to keep hurtful things to them selves. If I can do it then why can't you. I mean could you imagine living in your ideal world where a person can come up to another and tell them that they hate them because their hair is too long, they're part of this religious group, they're fat, they DON'T like child porn. That’s a sick and world and one I wish I don't live to see. All you got to do is ask yourself what happens without some form of barriers on these matters.

 

DrJägermeister you're an idiot. If you don't want to be constructive then go away. I mean you really are an idiot in my view. Don't you ever wonder how mankind came into existence? Oh let me guess. Darwin. Looking into it from a religious point of view and see its weak point. I can even tell you some. People more cleaver than you and I have faiths of one form or another. I’m talking about scientist. What makes you special? In the Quran it talks of stuff that was discovered centuries later by scientists. The bible may have stuff too. Explain that. Dude go and get a proper education and then come back.

 

Forgive me if i offended people (except DrJägermeister -he's an idiot) i didn't mean to.

 

I understand were you are coming from as I also come from a very religious background

 

I was taught that Jesus died in order to forgive our sins. That if everybody would be like us ( Christians) that there would be a heaven on earth. I was thought that there are non-believers, and even worse people who worship false gods. They sure would go to hell.

 

Belonging to a religious group can give you a safe feeling. The feeling of belonging to a group, a feeling of knowing right from wrong and even the feeling of superiority. As you are right and the non-believers are wrong.

 

As a grow older I came to understand that there a many religions and different views on religion, etc.

 

I came to understand that all people with different religions feel that their god is the real one. That there prophet is the real thing. That there views are better/superior to other religious views.

 

Well this is of course not true. Nobody knows the truth, nobody should claim to know the truth.

 

Unfortunately religious people often claim to know the truth, to know what right and wrong. Trying to force their views on others.

 

I studied different religious beliefs and their history. How they developed, their origins .

 

I came to the conclusion that religions like Christianity or the Islam. Are absurd.

 

How views(documents) of individual people of the past became dogma’s , and how some religious people tend to hold on to backward thinking. Like not accepting modern scientific view. Like the Darwin theory.

 

People who still want to hold on to the old way’s.

 

And I think that’s wrong.

 

People should be independent thinking rational beings. Who make up there minds for themselves. Not letting religious doctrines dictate what to think and how to be.

 

People should be willingly to accept that there are not absolute truths in this live. That you can’t be sure of anything. And that’s okay with me. But only the brave can life like this. Some people never grow up and feel the need for a father figure ( god) who watches over them.

[brainbone]

Let me ask you this. If you think that "freedom of speech come above" all else then is it wrong for me to incite religious hatred saying "Christians should be killed" or even that "child porn is normal". The list can go on and all I have to do is use your weak argument and say freedom of speech comes above all. Of course I can't say this stuff. It offends people and it is clearly wrong. So why would I. I just don't understand why it's hard for people to keep hurtful things to them selves. If I can do it then why can't you.

 

In your crusade to cure the world of sick and hurtful speech and expression, you may just end up creating sick and hurtful actions.

 

If someone wants to say "Child porn is normal" so be it. You know who they are, and can keep an eye on them should they try to act. You can also counter point them in public forum, showing what Sick F**ks they actually are.

 

While you say you’re all for free speech, you need to understand that it goes both ways. You can’t be for it, yet seek to quell expression you find hurtful.

 

I mean could you imagine living in your ideal world where a person can come up to another and tell them that they hate them because their hair is too long, they're part of this religious group, they're fat, they DON'T like child porn. That’s a sick and world and one I wish I don't live to see. All you got to do is ask yourself what happens without some form of barriers on these matters.

 

I do live in that world, here and now. I have long hair, and I do receive improper comments from time to time - even while walking with my wife and 3yr. old daughter.

 

Now, this doesn’t mean there aren’t limits. When speech is an attempt to directly incite violence (with "[insert target here] should be killed" for example), then we have another issue at hand - and that's a fine line some will try to walk. However, do you honestly believe that the cartoon featuring Muhammad was an attempt to incite violence?

 

 

In the Quran it talks of stuff that was discovered centuries later by scientists. The bible may have stuff too. Explain that. Dude go and get a proper education and then come back.

 

If you're going to throw this out, you need to provide some links to back these statements up, otherwise it's simply troll food. Also, please mind your attitude - it's becoming hostile. Even if it's directed towards DrJägermeister, your statements are being read by others, and don’t lend to a civilized discussion.

 

DrJägermeister, albeit crassly, simply stated an opinion. It's no more right or wrong than your own, and is nothing to be offended by… although it is off topic.

 

Edit: Also, with all your talk of keeping "hurtful things to themselves", I'd have expected you to think twice before calling DrJägermeister an idiot and blasting Darwinism as you did. Bit hypocritical, no? Or do you really mean, "keep things that are hurtful to me to themselves"?

[henbjo]

Is it ok to have an image of Jesus (pbuh) killing Iraq’s (women and children) published on worldwide papers, just because Bush-face is a Christian?

Yes, and I think it would be a very effective way to make a point. That's the whole idea of this type of cartoons and caricatures, to go far over the top make a point, not reflect the actual circumstances accurately in that sense.

 

The prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is more beloved to Muslims than our mothers. Than our selves. Who bled for us and you. Whose constant thought was with mankind’s wellbeing in terms of the hereafter.

Well, this is the very core of this matter. Most of the people who are not Muslims (for instance myself) obvously don't have the same knowledge about the Muslim world, customs and beliefs, for instance the role of, importance of and the relationship to the prophet Muhammad as the Muslims themselves.

 

Why would you attack such a person and anger and upset so many people? And then call it freedom of expression. Isn't burning flags freedom of expression also then?

Do you think the objective of these cartoons was to anger the Muslim world the way thy did? Of course not, it was merely a result of the fact that the author didn't know how hard this punched the muslims below the belt, the author's ignorance if you will. If the author knew this beforehand, I'm sure he wouldn't publish the cartoons.

 

I tell you right now, there is not a single person that I know or my friends know who their friends know that thinks this is ok. I would burn the Danish flag a million times over but I wouldn't say anything about Jesus. Why? Because that gets people in the heart. Where it really hurts. I mean I couldn't care less if you were burning my countries flag. As long as you weren’t burning my country.

Well, I think you should be a bit careful with statements like that. I'm a Norwgian, and I tell you, I wasn't smiling when I saw our flag burning outside the Norwegian embassies that suffered the very same destiny.

And there are Norwegian and Danish Muslims as well, you know, and I know quite a few, and all of them were equally upset by the reactions (burning flags, embassies etc.) as by the cartoons themselves. This because they are both Muslims and Norwegians, and was punched below the belt by the cartoons but also by people with the same religion.

And also, just because a Norwegian or Danish magazine published these drawings doesn't make the nations themselves responsible. So burning a flag as a reaction, and hurting millions of people of which 99% are equally against the drawings as the Muslims themselves, is ridicilous and just as narrow minded.

 

So just because you wouldn't care if someone burnt you country's flag, it doesn't mean that no one else does.

 

What hurts people is very individual, and as an agnostic, if anyone insulted Jesus, the prophet Muhammad, or any other important person related to religions, it wouldn't hurt me as an individual at all. But it's still wrong to do it, because it hurts billions of other people.

 

Making these drawings, and publishing them was a big mistake, and obviously a very bad thing to do. But those who have apologised and admitted their ignorance should be forgiven without hesitation. And would you consider burning flags and embassies as arguing and debating?

I think it's important to see things from two angles here...

[Ouch]

Well this came up rather randomly again didn't it! Anyway there shall be no more talk of idiots or this topic shall be swiftly closed. If you don't agree with someone elses viewpoint fine but don't attack them for it.

 

By the way, DrJagermeister, evolutionism is as much a faith as any other religion - it's a scientific theory that has never been proven. Most believe it only because they have been indoctrinated by society, school, the media etc and very few of these same people have a full understanding of the whole theory. Remember the scientists who told us the sun was the centre of the universe, or that the earth was flat. To deny another worldview as "just plain wrong", especially one you don't have a full understanding of, is very arrogant. If there is one thing that time has proven it's that our science is frequently wrong. I've made my views on this subject known before - but even i am comfortable enough in my beliefs to allow a healthy amount of doubt prompt me to re-evaluate them when need be.

 

"The beginning of wisdom is found in doubting; by doubting we come to the question, and by seeking we may come upon the truth."

- Pierre Abelard

 

"The relationship between commitment and doubt is by no means an antagonistic one. Commitment is healthiest when it is not without doubt but in spite of doubt."

- Rollo May

 

Anyway that was way off topic, sorry

[johan]

By the way, DrJagermeister, evolutionism is as much a faith as any other religion - it's a scientific theory that has never been proven. Most believe it only because they have been indoctrinated by society, school, the media etc and very few of these same people have a full understanding of the whole theory. Remember the scientists who told us the sun was the centre of the universe, or that the earth was flat. To deny another worldview as "just plain wrong", especially one you don't have a full understanding of, is very arrogant. If there is one thing that time has proven it's that our science is frequently wrong. I've made my views on this subject known before - but even i am comfortable enough in my beliefs to allow a healthy amount of doubt prompt me to re-evaluate them when need be.

 

evolution theory doesn’t claim to be the ultimate truth

 

the word says it: evolution theory

 

so its humble just by definition

 

religious people aren’t humble by definition. As they claim to know the ultimate truth of their god

 

science by its nature is not dogmatic, religion is

 

so calling evolution theory a religion is absurd

 

it’s a science based theory, that has sound proof.. but it doesn’t claim to be the ultimate truth

 

if other theories come, that have a sound scientific base.. scientist will change their views

 

were as religions people will stick by the some old dogma’s, no matter what evidence is presented

 

so science is not a religion. Its completely different

[Aurora]

...God doesn't exist, jesus was not the son of god but a charlatan...

 

Prove it.

 

Else consider yourself a troll for senseless flaming.

 

Well this came up rather randomly again didn't it! Anyway there shall be no more talk of idiots or this topic shall be swiftly closed. If you don't agree with someone elses viewpoint fine but don't attack them for it.

 

By the way, DrJagermeister, evolutionism is as much a faith as any other religion - it's a scientific theory that has never been proven. Most believe it only because they have been indoctrinated by society, school, the media etc and very few of these same people have a full understanding of the whole theory. Remember the scientists who told us the sun was the centre of the universe, or that the earth was flat. To deny another worldview as "just plain wrong", especially one you don't have a full understanding of, is very arrogant. If there is one thing that time has proven it's that our science is frequently wrong. I've made my views on this subject known before - but even i am comfortable enough in my beliefs to allow a healthy amount of doubt prompt me to re-evaluate them when need be.

 

"The beginning of wisdom is found in doubting; by doubting we come to the question, and by seeking we may come upon the truth."

- Pierre Abelard

 

"The relationship between commitment and doubt is by no means an antagonistic one. Commitment is healthiest when it is not without doubt but in spite of doubt."

- Rollo May

 

Anyway that was way off topic, sorry

 

I agree. Evolution is a religion as much as Christianity, Islam, and everything else. Except that we become our own gods instead of creating them in our minds. It's just as unprovable as intelligent design so the only reason we can believe in it is with a brand of faith. To be honest, I'd love a thread on evolutionary/intelligent design debate.

 

Off-topic, I know, God forgive me.

 

Cheers.

[brainbone]

I agree. Evolution is a religion as much as Christianity, Islam, and everything else. Except that we become our own gods instead of creating them in our minds. It's just as unprovable as intelligent design so the only reason we can believe in it is with a brand of faith. To be honest, I'd love a thread on evolutionary/intelligent design debate.

 

Evolution may be a belief, but it is definitely not a religion, nor is it blind faith. Evolution is based on science, which is based testing and observation. Where the belief comes in is in the perception of what you're observing.

 

The theory of evolution is just that. A theory. It's not meant to be blindly followed with faith. Instead, it’s meant to be questioned until you find something that better fits the observations made. Show me a religion that does the same.

 

johan already explain this well, so there is no sense repeating.

 

So, in your own words: Prove it. Else consider yourself a troll for senseless flaming.

[Aurora]

I was speaking about the good Doctor. Nevertheless, don't mind if I do. Join me in the Evolution vs. Creation thread.

[Mebster]

Darwinism is not a religion. (for once I agree with johan - wow).

 

The Oxford Diction defines it as:

1. belief in a superhuman controlling power, esp. in a personal God or gods entitled to obedience and worship. 2. expression of this in worship. 3. particular system of faith in worship.4. things that one is devoted to.

 

Now if one was to think Darwinism or evolution was a religion then they would look at example 3 or 4.

From 3, we know that no one can or does worship evolution. There is nothing to worship. No ‘reward’ is every gained.

And from 4, someone may believe but one again being devoted to it brings no purpose as there are no ‘rewards’. And so weather you believe in it or not Darwin could not care less. So it’s not a religion. It is a Theory though as some have already stated better than I.

 

It is a comfortable place to lie in if you're undecided or are not bothered with religion (of any kind). But to me and billions of other people of faith it's nonsense. And some of them have even argued against it with compelling arguments. I with my own untrained head can ask a few questions and come to a dead stop. I remember when I was 12 I was wondering if Islam was forced onto be. Is there a truer way of life? After a while I realised it gave me more answers and less questions than anything else could. I don't assume to know all religions but in my experience it did. But that's a different story.

 

Darwinism basically says (in my understanding):

Life started in the sea as microbes. And continued evolving and here we are billions of years later. Now lets just for a sec say THAT IS TRUE. And lets go back a few billion years before life was created and ask yourself how was the sun, the moon, the earth and the start of all other "materials" in the universe created? Oh yeah. THE BIG BANG! That’s a great answer.

But wait! The Big Bang THEORY is that huge amounts of gas (plasma) collected in some place in the universe. And as these were pulled together by the shear force of the gravity they were creating they compressed closer. As they squeezed closer they got hotter and hotter building pressure. Eventually came a point where the force exerted due to the pressure was greater than the force of gravity pulling everything closer and BANG. You got an explosion which we call the BIG BANG.

Fine I accept that but what you have to ask yourself (and this is the key), Where Did All This Gas Come From In The Beginning? This gas (plasma), which was vital for the big bang, where did it originate from? How can it be that it was there before the big bang (which is supposed to be the beginning of all things)? SOMETHING CAN NOT COME FROM NOTHING. So what does that mean? There must be a CREATOR (Allah in my belief). It doesn't matter (here) if you think the creator let us evolve or not but the materials (gas - plasma) in the universe got there somehow. It can't just be dumped! I'm a man who understands science quiet well. But here science can't give us any answers.

As johan explained, theories can change with the wind. One minute earth is in the centre of the universe and the next we're not. And the same goes for many other such as the world being flat.

So is it wise to put your ultimate fate on something which has no clear answer?

 

Sure some of you are going to look at this light heartedly but I’m telling you my physics lecturers were not able to answer this. And they are cleaver people, I tell you!

 

Related: The Conservation Of Energy (a physical law) states that "energy can not be created or destroyed". This is a scientific fact. If it can not be created or destroyed, how did it get there?

 

I WILL ADD THE MIRACLES FROM THE QUR'AN AGAIN LATER, AS THIS MADE THE POST TOO LONG!

[henbjo]

Well, your "proof" from the Qur'ân isn't any more reliable than any other theory. No theory has been confirmed scientifically, and will probably never be. So calling it proof is a bit dramatic in my opinion.

 

And when you say that it must have been a creator because SOMETHING CAN NOT COME FROM NOTHING, I ask you: Where did that creator come from? Did the creator just pop out of the black? Did the creator come out of nothing? This doesn't make sense to me.

 

My opinion is that all religious explanations of how life started are fabricated to fit and make sense. And ,obviously, they do. That's excactly why so many believe them to be the truth. I don't think humans are able to understand everything, for instance eternity and that the universe always has existed, which is my belief, even though I don't understand it. Because nothing just happens on earth without any action beforehand, we are so into that way of thinking, that we seem to think the same about the universe, which I believe is the reason why we don't have any definite answer to this. It's beyond our comprehension. At least yet. Ask any physichist or other scientist who is neutral to religion, and you'll get the same answer.

 

And by the way, the Big Bang theory is not the only theory about our solar system's creation out there, you know.. For instance the Oligarch theory which has become a hot potato along with the findings of the new planet Xena and many other giant asteroids, makes just as much sense.

[brainbone]

AcePlayer; while I appreciate the time you put into this, unfortunately, I haven’t the time to pick trough each statement, one by one. It took too much of my time just reading them.

 

All of them share one thing in common. Vagueness. " iron in which there lies great force and which has many uses for mankind…". You can read anything you want into this, but in no way does it directly say what you imply.

[Ouch]

Continue discussion of origins of life in this thread http://forum.osx86project.org/index.php?sh...29&hl=evolution

 

Lets keep this one for the whole cartoon issue.

[brainbone]

Lets keep this one for the whole cartoon issue.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, this thread is about Islam in general (and the cartoon).