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God botherers, I want your opinions.

gazasaurusu

By gazasaurusu,
in The Big Issues [Real Life]

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danerd100
danerd100
Posted
Posted
QUOTE

where did u hear this information that we evolved from viruses

The first time was on a science documentary from either one of the science channels or one of the PBS channels. It was around a year ago so it is still fairly new. I also read about it in a discovery magazine article from around a year ago. I then went to the library to get further intensive information.

 

Exactly what I am saying. If information is in a documentary, and the documentary is shown on TV, I would be able to find that information somewhere else. It would have been published somewhere, and then it would have somehow found its way to the internet. Please, post a link on this, and I will consider it

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Maxintosh
Maxintosh
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If information is in a documentary, and the documentary is shown on TV, I would be able to find that information somewhere else. It would have been published somewhere, and then it would have somehow found its way to the internet. Please, post a link on this, and I will consider it

Apparently you haven't read the last page of this thread... to repeat ourself at this point would be redundant.

 

Also, we're not trying to convince you of anything. Really. We already know the facts. We did this by doing our own research and not waiting or depending on anyone else. Like with everything else in life, whether you learn anything new or not is on you.

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danerd100
danerd100
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If you have the time you could try using this site. I'm sure it would have something about this new strain.

Please give me details, I want to know what to search for. I am searching blindly here. Virus name, anything

 

christianity proves nothing but claims to answer all.

 

That is correct for someone who doesn't believe in Christianity. We have something called faith. It is the main reason This:

...and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion.

is true. When was the last time someone like us who is arguing as if we are right without a doubt changed their mind?

 

No matter what, none of us who are posting on this forum will change our minds. We are firm in what we believe.

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Maxintosh
Maxintosh
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it never will, but it does prove (beyond a reasonable doubt) many things.

 

christianity proves nothing but claims to answer all.

Yep, I agree. Science certainly points us in the right direction, while religion only serves itself. It's amazing at the level of fear in this thread as those who have been systematically instilled to believe religious dogma are afraid that they've been hoodwinked :gun:

 

none of us who are posting on this forum will change our minds. We are firm in what we believe.

Speak for yourself. I am always open-minded when presented with facts and many times in many debates I have changed how I feel about a subject.

 

We have something called faith.

That's nice, too bad for you faith and facts are polar opposites.

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danerd100
danerd100
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Speak for yourself. I am always open-minded when presented with facts and many times in many debates I have changed how I feel about a subject.

 

You have changed your mind on other subjects, but you (and me) have fought very hard on this topic. Changing your mind in religion is a very hard thing to do. Especially if you convert from one religion to another because people think "If I was right at first, and now I am wrong, my afterlife will be different" or something to the nature of that.

 

You, seem like a person who is very grounded with your opinion that there is a God, but you do not believe in religion. That is easier to convert from, because you (at least based on what I have read) do not believe in an afterlife so it wouldn't be effected. However, you just don't seem willing (until you see proof that cannot be given over the internet) to change your stance on this

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QuietOC
QuietOC
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Speak for yourself. I am always open-minded when presented with facts and many times in many debates I have changed how I feel about a subject.

I think a fact that has been neglected in this discussion is subjective facts. Christian faith is partly based on personal experience of God. People without access to the Bible have reported having dreams about Jesus that have lead them to Christianity. I recently read the autobiography of Liu Zhenying (Brother Yun), a man from a remote village in China who claims such an experience. It is reported that people in dominate Muslim nations are having such experiences. Now, I don't see that I even have to believe such stories. Why should I? But I can believe my own experience. And no, subjective experience doesn't trump objectivism---self delusion is not admirable, but neither is denying subjective truth.

 

"Once people have seen the light, gotten a taste of heaven and been part of the work of the holy spirit, once they've personally experienced the sheer goodness of God's word and the powers breaking in on us--if then they turn their backs on it, washing their hands of the whole thing, well, they can't start over as if nothing happened. That's impossibe."

If you haven't experienced something like this, then it is not lack of faith on your part to reject what I and others believe. I will hope that you might experience it and then decide for yourself.

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Maxintosh
Maxintosh
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Posted
You have changed your mind on other subjects, but you (and me) have fought very hard on this topic.
I don't see it as 'fighting' per se. I have posted facts as I know them. You have posted your opinion. Hardly a traditional debate :D
Changing your mind in religion is a very hard thing to do.
Yes I know and I couldn't agree more. I already posted information regarding how certain peoples need for religious experiences has been linked to a defective gene. Those addicted to religion are in the same boat as those addicted to drugs, only it's legal. I'm not trying to change anyones mind about religion. A debate like that would be a waste of time. Logic and facts are meaningless when dealing with any addiction. How many people do we all know that smoke, know that it is literally killing them, and yet keep smoking? This is the same thing. The best that I can do is to represent the truth so that if anyone ever decides to break free from those bonds they will at least have solid ground to stand on.
You, seem like a person who is very grounded with your opinion that there is a God, but you do not believe in religion.
Yes. One of the worst things that religion has done to our culture is how it has twisted and distorted what 'God' is. I don't even like to use the word God anymore for that one reason. However I know from personal experience that this universal energy does exist. If I were to list my reasons for believing in that life force they wouldn't have any meaning to you or anyone else, yet they are very important to me. Religion on the other hand serves no purpose other than to sustain religion. It is mankinds arrogance that has it persuaded into thinking that something as phenomenal as God would focus all of its time, energy, and exist - just to want to 'save' us :hysterical: Think about it, why would something as omnipotent as God care about seemingly ants like mankind that have only gone against what is good and used his name as an excuse to mass kill innocent people? Would you want someone to use you as an excuse for why they killed an innocent person? Multiply that by a hundred-million times all throughout history, and that's just one of the things that God would have to deal with on mankinds behalf. If anything, religion has insulted God in all of his eminence. At best, all that we can do is to show due respect for God, and to try to make him proud of our lifes work, and no one needs to join a group of people to do that, nor would God want us to join a group of people to do that. Religion makes a mockery of respecting God, and all that he represents. So yes, we have personal reasons to believe that a God exist but religion serves no purpose in that. I may not have all of the answers but I'm pretty sure that God is not vain, and he doesn't need groups of people turning themselves into hypocrites and using Gods name to hurt others.
you do not believe in an afterlife
Not the ones traditionally taught by religion. I do believe that each person is here to learn certain things, and that each person is here to learn different things from one another. It is the only hypothesis that I have been able to come up with that explains everything, even unanswerable questions like "why do bad things happen to good people". Once we have completed learning what we have been set out to learn of course we would need a place to return to, but I don't think it is anything like heaven or hell. It is a known fact that 'hell' is mans own creation, used as a tool by religion to manipulate the masses. It is also a known fact that religion has lied to its own followers to keep them in line. I do not know if a place like heaven exists. If it does I seriously doubt that it is anything like what we've been taught, but I do feel that all people, good or bad by mankinds standards, go there once they leave here. I believe that only science will give us these answers when the time is right, meaning, when God feels that mankind can 'handle' the scope of this knowledge and all of the power that comes along with it, then, and only then, will mankind's science be able to discover these things. I believe that soon, because of what science teaches us, that there will be no purpose for religion. These latest discoveries are certainly firmly pointing mankind in that direction now. At that time both science and God will be in coexistence.
People without access to the Bible have reported having dreams about Jesus that have lead them to Christianity.
None of these stories have any credibility, and only serve to sooth those already in the trenches of religion. Scientist can medically induce the feeling that they have been confronted by a religious experience. They can also induce the 'white light' experience. If anything, this proves that these things do not exist, and are only a product of our own minds.
I recently read the autobiography of Liu Zhenying (Brother Yun), a man from a remote village in China who claims such an experience.
In Jan 2005 many experts in the religious field, including but not limited to Samuel Lamb Lin Xiangao, Moses Xie Moshan and Allen Yuan, have called 'brother yun' a "fraud who is out to gain wealth and status". I hope you have a better example than him :hysterical: Hopefully one that is actually documented by credible sources :(
If you haven't experienced something like this, then it is not lack of faith on your part to reject what I and others believe.
That speaks about God, and not the need to join a group of people participating in a religion...
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QuietOC
QuietOC
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Posted
In Jan 2005 many experts in the religious field, including but not limited to Samuel Lamb Lin Xiangao, Moses Xie Moshan and Allen Yuan, have called 'brother yun' a "fraud who is out to gain wealth and status".

Yes, that's not news. As I said I don't feel like I would have to believe in it if he was telling the truth. I see him more as on the edge of heresy than hypocracy. I thought you would comment more about subjective truth. Are you saying no one can have any real experience of God?

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danerd100
danerd100
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Posted

Maxintosh, I understand 150% where you are coming from. I will also pray for you that you can see what I have seen when God entered my life, and you can change. Seeing as I do not personally know you, I do not know if it will work, or if you will change, but it is what I believe, and I will pray for you.

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dark4181
dark4181
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good post maxintosh. my thoughts parallel yours in some ways, though i still lean mostly towards believing in jesus. i've had god smack me on the side of the head too many times for me to not believe that a god exists. true, this is only anecdotal evidence, but we are defined by our experiences, after all.

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Maxintosh
Maxintosh
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i still lean mostly towards believing in jesus.

It's a hard habit to break so I understand. Easter is coming up next week. Did you know that Easter is a borrowed concept from another religion? Fact is that most things in the christian religion were stolen from other religions and myths in that day. For example; there were many mythical figures who all had the same story line as Jesus, only their stories all came before the story of Jesus. Can you explain that logically? Here are two examples of them and how the story of Jesus may have started, a third was Buddha. Most of this can be documented in the book 'The power of Myths". The book (and matching video from most libraries) are an excellent resource of information. Keep in mind that this fable proceeded the one about Jesus, so it was well known at the time. It should also be noted that the very first christians addressed their prayers to 'Our Lord the Sun' - evidencing that 'primitive' Christians were quite in the spirit of Pagan forms and ideologies. Interestingly the Egyptian sun god Horus, had pre-dated the Jesus character by thousands of years. The story of Jesus shares the following with the story of Horus:

 

• Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a manger.

• His birth was being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.

• His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph").

• He was of royal descent.

• At age 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple.

• A aget 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.

• Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" ("John the Baptist"), who was decapitated.

• He had 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "Aan" (the two "Johns").

• He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris"), from the dead.

• Horus walked on water.

• His personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was thus called "Holy Child."

• He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."

• Horus was transfigured on the Mount.

• He was crucified between two thieves.

• He was buried for three days in a tomb, and then resurrected.

• He was also called the "Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "God's Anointed Son," the "Son of Man," the "Good Shepherd," the "Lamb of God," the "Word made flesh," the "Word of Truth," etc.

• Like Jesus, "Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years."

• Horus fed thousands (5000 to be exact) with just a few loaves of bread.

• Horus was called "the KRST," (pronounced Christ) or "Anointed One."

• He was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys") and the Lamb.

 

Another famous myth of the time where elements of Jesus appears is in the story of Mithras, which predates the story of Jesus by 600 years! As noted below the Orthodox Christian hierarchy is practically identical to the Mithraic version. Virtually all of the elements of the Orthodox Christian rituals (wafer, doxology, water baptism and alter) were adopted from the Mithra and earlier pagan religions. Jesus had the following similarities with Mithra, as the sun god (there's that sun worshiping aspect again) of ancient Persia:

 

• Mithra was born on December 25th as an offspring of the Sun.

• Both had virgin births.

• Next to the god Ormuzd, Mithra held the highest rank among the gods of ancient Persia. Next to God, Jesus holds the next highest rank.

• He was represented as a beautiful youth and a mediator.

• He was considered a great traveling teacher.

• He had twelve companions (Jesus had twelve disciples).

• Mithra was called "the good shepherd,” "the way, the truth and the light,” “redeemer,” “savior,” “Messiah."

• He was identified with both the lion and the lamb.

• Could also redeem the souls of the dead into heaven.

• Ceremonies included a sort of baptism to remove sins, anointing, and a sacred meal of bread and water, while a consecrated wine, believed to possess wonderful power.

• The mysteries of Mithras, which fell in the spring equinox, were famous even among the many Roman festivals, much like Easter is today among christians.

• Purified themselves by baptism.

• Their conceptions of the world and of the destiny of man were very similar.

• They both believed in the existence of a Heaven inhabited by beatified ones, situated in the upper regions, and of a Hell, peopled by demons, situated in the bowels of the earth.

• They both placed a flood at the beginning of history.

• Both performed the same exact miracles.

• They both believed in the immortality of the soul, in a last judgment, and in a resurrection of the dead.

• They both had disciples which formed an organized church, with a developed hierarchy.

• They both possessed the ideas of Mediation, Atonement, and a Savior, who is human and yet divine, and not only the idea, but a doctrine of the future life.

• They both had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper."

• They were both buried in a tomb and after three days they both rose again. Their resurrection was (is) celebrated every year.

• They both had the sacred day of Sunday, "the Lord's Day."

• "I am a star which goes with thee and shines out of the depths." - Mithraic saying" - I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star." - Jesus, (Rev. 22:16)

• Both were believed to be mankind's savior.

• Both were known as the Light of the world.

 

Now if the story of Jesus just had one or two similarities, well I can understand that, but when you can comprise a long list(s) as shown above, that speaks volumes to the open minded person. In fact, when christianity first started Pope Leo X, privileged to the truth because, well... he was afterall the pope, made this statement, "What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!" Anyone who knows about how the culture was back then knows that it was very common in those days to replicate stories, except for one or two changes like the name of the key figures. There are many other similarities, but do we really need any more to understand where the story of Jesus most likely originated from? No one is here to tell anyone which story to believe, but when several stories that are identical in nature predate one about a figure called Jesus, don't you think it would be nearly impossible to suggest that the story of Jesus was original? Here's how I look at it, I don't think that God would want anyone to spend their life believing in a lie. Far from it, I think when you show God that you, as a person, have enough backbone to search for the truth, that it would make God proud of you. Conversely, any religion that would try to make you feel guilty for searching for the truth, isn't one that I'd want to belong to. It's like they say, the truth will set you free. Here's something else to consider, there is a human phenomenon called “argumentum ad nauseam” which is when someone makes a false statement, and through prolonged repetition people begin to believe that the false statement is true. Some politicians make good use of this tactic. There is also something called "Communal Reinforcement" in which a claim becomes a strong belief through repeated assertion by members of a community. In both cases something false is repeated, and then believed or accepted by the person who keeps hearing it. Every cult leader knows the value of communal reinforcement, combined with isolating cult members from the truth. Both argumentum ad nauseam and communal reinforcement explain how a story, such as the one constantly repeated about Jesus, would be believed, but that doesn't make the story true. If you want to believe in the truth, then I suggest you focus on documented history.

 

You're advocating religion!

Please stay seated until the ride comes to a complete stop :)

 

God has nothing to do with religion, and God certainly doesn't need religion, unless of course you're suggesting that God is vain ;)

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vbetts
vbetts
Posted
Posted

I do have one thing to say about the whole matter.

 

Kind of off topic and kind of not...But easter...

 

eggs+rabbit= JESUS RISES!?

 

Holy {censored}, if it's that easy, but I want to know where you get eggs, from rabbits, even more from...Someone rising from the dead? Unless Jesus looked like a rabbit, and liked eggs, South Park had a funny explanation on this...

 

In all seriousness though, someone correct me if I'm wrong. I have never opened the bible and started reading it for myself, but doesn't it say in the bible, that you would worship god, or jesus? Or, something on the lines of that? If you do worship a god or jesus or another holy figure covered in the bible, go right ahead. But if that is the case, it kind of seems alittle be hypocritical. You know, "follow the bible, let's worship! Yeah!" Like I said, I haven't seen the insides of a bible, so I'd kind of feel like a total d-bag not have 100% reassurance about the post I'm making, so could someone confirm that in the bible?>_>

 

Also, I think you should live your life for you, and not because a god or someone expects you to. Be good and tolerable for your own sake. If not, no cookies and pie for you...And pie is pretty damn great. :hysterical:

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Paranoid Marvin
Paranoid Marvin
Posted
Posted
^doesn't halloween already hold that title? lolz

 

ergh, I *hate* Hallowe'en.

Mainly because I hate cheap sweets (or candy :( ) stuffed full of refined sugar, sweetners, colours and other artifical {censored}.

 

At least Easter gives you an excuse to get some really, really nice Swiss chocolate, for example, some Lindt :cards:

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dark4181
dark4181
Posted
Posted

So does Valentine's day

 

But, I think I like Cadbury eggs and Lindor Truffles best of all.... There isn't a lot of high grade chocolate available here. Well, not at reasonable prices, anyway

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