God botherers, I want your opinions.

[Alessandro17]

The reason that I devote my life to him is because of my personal experiences, not because of facts and evidences. He did something extradonary in my life that is unexplainable by words.

 

You are not the first one to say that and I can accept and respect it because it doesn't sound arrogant.

By now it should be pretty clear that I also believe in the Absolute, but it has nothing to do at all with the God from the Bible.

[Maxintosh]

He did something extradonary in my life that is unexplainable by words.

Same here, but it wasn't just one big thing, more like several (comparatively) smaller things

[unohoo]

The reason that I devote my life

I think that is the point of this topic - why devotion?

 

I have had a spiritual experience but it was about connected energy - not about god or the absolute. And yes! I would want more of that but it never happened again.

I have also resigned myself to die in the gutter at the hands of a New York madman but things worked out (quirk of fate) - someone said that that was the will of Allah - but he would say that wouldn't he.

 

and by the way you did say "reason"

[3nigma]

God revealed Himself in the Bible, thus we can know Him.

Even if Bible weren't an obvious work of human fiction, and even if it didn't contain countless contradictions, there is still a serious flaw: our brain is far too small to conceive God.

Even if the Bible were reliable, that would be like trying to know everything about a human being from a (poor quality) picture.

As the great reformer John Calvin said, God came down and spoke baby-babble (our own language) so that we can grasp a tiny piece of him.

 

Nevermind it all, we're off topic.

 

Does the existence of God negate the possibility of free will?

 

-3nigma

[unohoo]

God or no God - Free Will does not exist

[danerd100]

Same here, but it wasn't just one big thing, more like several (comparatively) smaller things

 

So, I sort of understand your standpoint, and I do respect it, please do not think I am mocking it.

 

You believe there is a God, but he doesn't need to be worshipped, and our religions are wrong?

 

I have found through my experiences, he leads me more toward Christianity, however, if I was a Muslim, he would maybe move more toward Islam?

 

That could be, I am not sure

 

Just curious Maxintosh, What is your job, or what is your degree in? You seem to know a whole lot about this subject, and I can tell you have thought this stuff through before.

If you don't want to answer, please, do not, but if you do feel like answering, go ahead.

[djet]

If there is a God, then why wouldn't he want to be worshipped?

[Maxintosh]

If there is a God, then why wouldn't he want to be worshipped?

Because he doesn't have a human ego...

[danerd100]

I am not sure, that is what Maxintosh believes (or atleast how I understand it)

 

Rephrase: In my opinion, the Christian God doesn't WANT to be worshipped, but he DESERVES to be

[Alessandro17]

Rephrase: In my opinion, the Christian God doesn't WANT to be worshipped, but he DESERVES to be

 

In my view of the Absolute, worshipping doesn't help in any way, except maybe as a first stage for creating "good karma".

Compassion (love) for every living being is much more useful.

[apowerr]

If there is a God, then why wouldn't he want to be worshipped?

Why would it want to be or need to be worshipped? Its nothing like you or I.

 

Compassion (love) for every living being is much more useful.

Bingo. Learn to love yourself and everything and everyone.

[killbot1000]

Let me clarify. I am as atheist as they come. If there was no space time before he created it, where was he when he did? One of the properties of omnipresence is being EVERYWHERE, if you created everything (including everywhere) how can you be omnipresent? You can't. Our universe is what is called a 'closed system', meaning nothing in it can leave, and nothing outside of it can have an effect on what is in it. So say just for arguments sake that god did have a place to be in order to create our universe,he couldn't have been in it because it didn't exist. So he had to be outside of it. Therefore after creation could not have had influence or knowledge of what happened inside it, and is irrelevant. In physics the simplest answer is always the right one. And the simplest way to solve this conundrum is for god not to exist.

I agree! While I am not CLOSED to the possibility of a god, the pieces really do fit better without god. They used to not fit, but as we discover more and more, they fit better and better without us having to make up a story about it.

Okay guys. This topic has gotten way off topic from when it was supposed to be only about free-will.....You know guys, you can come up with all the reasons for and against god, all the logical evidence, but ask any of the Christians here about why they believe what they believe and none of them will say reason, if so then they really need to reexamine their faith. The reason that I devote my life to him is because of my personal experiences, not because of facts and evidences. He did something extradonary in my life that is unexplainable by words.

That's what we "unbelievers" dispute. How can you know for sure that god "did something extraordinary" in your life? How are you so sure that it's not a coincidence, or that it comes from the effort of somebody else, or maybe the effort of yourself?

If there is a God, then why wouldn't he want to be worshipped?

I don't know, seems kind of petty for an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being to demand worship "BOW BEFORE ME, YOUR GOD COMMANDS IT!" I dunno...if I were a god, life would be a gift, I wouldn't require that it always thank me over and over and over again, it would get a little old, I dunno, that's how I would feel if I were a god.

In my opinion, the Christian God doesn't WANT to be worshipped, but he DESERVES to be

Why? What makes the Christian God so special? The way I see it, he's done a mediocre job at creating human beings. If god is all knowing, then god would have KNOWN before he created beings in the first place that they would disobey him, from the story of genesis, he seems surprised that we disobeyed him (which would not make him all knowing). If however he was all knowing, what's the point in creating beings that disobey you?

Why does it have to be one or the other? A person can be neutral, open to the possibility, which I believe you already said you are. You're saying that God can't exist just because you haven't personally had an epiphany, but that doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, it simply means that you haven't yet discovered what someone else may have already. Everyone has different experiences in life, why should how or when we find God be any different?

I am neutral, and I am open to the possibility (not the probability). I NOT saying that God doesn't exist, I AM saying that evidence for God's existence is sparse at best, and non-existent at worst. I am saying that because of this lack of evidence, we should go about our lives AS IF god doesn't exist. Rather than indoctrinating people, we should use what we have BEEN ABLE TO USE up to this point, reason and logic coupled with research. Until god speaks, we shouldn't indoctrinate people into assuming what God thinks. Until that point of God's spoken word, we should use our own minds, our own reasoning, and our own logic (that god gave to us, if you are the religious type), because without divine guidance (real, not fake), if we continue to allow our children to be indoctrinated, it is just brainwashing, pure and simple.

Just because someone 'thinks' they know what God may or may not be, doesn't make it so, therefore, none of us are in charge.

I completely agree 100%

[Alessandro17]

Why? What makes the Christian God so special? The way I see it, he's done a mediocre job at creating human beings. If god is all knowing, then god would have KNOWN before he created beings in the first place that they would disobey him, from the story of genesis, he seems surprised that we disobeyed him (which would not make him all knowing). If however he was all knowing, what's the point in creating beings that disobey you?

 

However things might be a lot more complicated than that.

According to the Advaita Vedanta, the Supreme Being (Nirguna Brahman) is far beyond our comprehension. It (not "He") is not a creator God.

Creator gods emanate from the Nirguna Brahman, thus they are not necessarily perfect. An imperfect god creates something not perfect.

Imagine the following: you are having a bad nightmare. If the characters in your nightmare could become self aware, they would say: our creator failed in creating us!

Furthermore, imagine there is a hierarchy of deities. The one who created us could be pretty low in the hierarchy.

 

I can imagine people's objections: your theory is far too complicated.

However:

1)It is not just "my" theory

2)In such a complex, multidimensional Reality, things can't be too simple.

[Maxintosh]

Just curious Maxintosh, What is your job, or what is your degree in? You seem to know a whole lot about this subject, and I can tell you have thought this stuff through before.

After graduating high school I was preparing to join the seminary. I was studying theology, philosophy, pastoral care and liturgy. During my research I had a few questions that I requested beforehand to be addressed, but they were not properly addressed. I decided to not become a priest and instead find another religion to follow. While reviewing all of the worlds religions (except for scientology) I could not find one that was honest and logical (although Buddhism came close). I was surprised that I could not find a religion that could meet my (basic) needs, so I decided to not "settle" for any of them and to keep looking. That was many moons ago, and since then I've never been able to find one single religion that was true to God in a pure sense of the word. The more I thought about it, the more I realized that I don't "need" a religion to honor God. After all, a person doesn't need a religion to be compassionate towards a fellow human being. While no one can ever know what God would want from us humans, if anything, I try to use as much logic as possible and do what I feel would make God proud of my daily actions. Honesty, generosity for those less fortunate, treating this planet with respect, compassion, and never being biased when searching for the truth - are my main benchmarks.

 

How can you know for sure that god "did something extraordinary" in your life? How are you so sure that it's not a coincidence

Remember Pavlov's dog? It's kind of like that Like with anything that you're trying to trace down you systematically rule things out.

 

if we continue to allow our children to be indoctrinated, it is just brainwashing, pure and simple.

As far as I'm concerned it is no less than child abuse. Parents need to teach their children the unbiased facts (instead of things the way 'they' see them) and to then trust their children's good judgement. The ironic part is that supposedly these parents 'love' their children, and yet they outright lie to them and force feed them this religious dogma which doesn't help their children in any way. That's why the middle east is such a mess. They'd rather see their children needlessly die and actually strap bombs to their bodies instead of teaching their children a positive, compassionate message.

[djet]

That's what we "unbelievers" dispute. How can you know for sure that god "did something extraordinary" in your life? How are you so sure that it's not a coincidence, or that it comes from the effort of somebody else, or maybe the effort of yourself?

 

Exactly why you are an "unbeliever." How are you so certain God didn't do something amazing in my life?

 

 

 

In the BIble (Exodus 20: 5) it says, " You shall not bow down to them or worship them. (referring to idols in the previous verse.) for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,"

 

I sorta want to open up another convo here. ANyone heard of the Cosmological Argument for the existence of A god?

[apowerr]

In the BIble (Exodus 20: 5) it says, " You shall not bow down to them or worship them. (referring to idols in the previous verse.) for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,"

Wow, what a {censored}. Just so you know, I don't hate God and if there is a God I love it as I try to love everything. It just seems awfully mean and immature for a supreme being to hold a grudge like that, rather than forgive. Of course, if something was capable of creating this universe as you and many others propose, I'd like to to think that its beyond grudges and forgivingness in the first place.

 

I sorta want to open up another convo here. ANyone heard of the Cosmological Argument for the existence of A god?

Yes I have, you mean:

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
   
2. The universe began to exist.
   
3. Therefore, the universe had a cause.
    
   Correct?
   

[djet]

ALong the lines of that. I'll state what I've understood it as.

 

Everything that exists has a cause. I'm alive because my parents had sex. A table exists because someone took the wood from a tree and shaped it into what we call a table. That wood exists because a tree.......and so on. So everything has a cause, and everything's cause has a cause. So when this all stems back we keep on going and going. Seemingly infinite. But since everything has a cause, then nothing is infinite. So something must have caused the first cause and so that must NOT have had a cause or else it would not be the first cause. That thing must be infinite, or else it would not be the first cause.

 

I hope I didn't get incomprehensible there..... I may have fudged some stuff too.

[QuietOC]

How can you know for sure that god "did something extraordinary" in your life? How are you so sure that it's not a coincidence, or that it comes from the effort of somebody else, or maybe the effort of yourself?

Because Christians know others with the same experience and they have a several centuries long historical record of such things--that no one has disproved. What sort of coincidence would all this be? I could maybe accept it all being owed to just some very advanced alien being(s), but it is a little far fetched for that.

 

True Christianity is very open. There are no doubt a lot of christian cults in America that run like any cult. But even the more fundamental churches are learning that it is much better to teach critical thinking to their children and accept other Christians with differing opinions. Christianity is no longer a Western majority phenomenon. The majority of self-proclaimed Christians are now in Africa, South America, and soon Asia.

As far as I'm concerned it is no less than child abuse. Parents need to teach their children the unbiased facts (instead of things the way 'they' see them) and to then trust their children's good judgement.

Modern anthropology and its step child post modernism has basically debunked unbiased-ness. There is no such thing as unbiased facts. All facts come through biased lenses. The question should be, are you using the best biased lens? For those of us who believe that God has revealed himself, there is the sense that our bias can be conformed to God's bias through revelation.

 

I can definitely say that the God of the Bible is more interested in people learning to think well, than having mystical experiences, or performing religious acts.

[Maxintosh]

for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God

...there's that humanization again... LOL

 

There is no such thing as unbiased facts.

Yeah I guess 1+1 doesn't equal 2

 

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
   
2. The universe began to exist.
   
3. Therefore, the universe had a cause.
   

There are actually at least 3 types of cosmological arguments. That one is more along the lines of the writings from William Lane Craig which talks about a second type of cosmological argument called the Kalām Cosmological Argument. The 'big bang' falls into this category. Stephen Hawking in his book named "A Brief History of Time" has already shown that there doesn't necessarily need to be a 'beginning' for the universe, and that it cannot be considered as a physical event. In fact it's very possible that the universe = God.

[Paranoid Marvin]

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
   
2. The universe began to exist.
   
3. Therefore, the universe had a cause.
    
   Correct?
   

 

That's a very large assumption to make.

Not everything has a purpose, if anything. Quantum theory explains that there are multiple universes, therefore there can't be anything particularly special about this universe, or any of the things that occupy it.

[QuietOC]

Logic/math/lambda calculus does seem to be unbiased. I think those in themselves argue God's existence. Bias is unavoidable for any fact of observation, and perhaps we even observe the facts of math. Certainly we only know a little of math.

 

Stephen Hawking in his book named "A Brief History of Time" has already shown that there doesn't necessarily need to be a 'beginning' for the universe, and that it cannot be considered as a physical event. In fact it's very possible that the universe = God.

 

Certainly that is logically possible given what Dr. Hawking is looking at. I am certain there are no causal holes in space-time that require filling with a god-of-the-gaps. I am not exactly sure what Dr. Lane means, but I believe he has at least partially misunderstood physics. 

[djet]

The "jealous" can be interpreted as zeal. Also, when God says jealous, most of the time he is referring to the Israelite's worship of other Gods and how he is jealous towards others.

[Maxintosh]

The "jealous" can be interpreted as zeal.

It can be "interpreted" in a hundred different ways. Hence one of the basic inherent flaws of the bible - interpretation :censored2:

 

when God says jealous...

God didn't say 'jealous' - or anything else for that matter. Mankind claimed that God said 'this or that'. Big difference.

[djet]

It can be "interpreted" in a hundred different ways. Hence one of the basic inherent flaws of the bible - interpretation

 

WHy is it a flaw?

 

And getting back on subject..... Cosmological ARgument for Existence of a god.

[Maxintosh]

WHy is it a flaw?

It's not, if you're writing a comic book. If you're writing something that is supposed to have just one meaning, then it is a serious flaw. See here for many documented flaws in various bibles. Some are actually quite funny, like in Exodus 20:14, when they left out the word 'not' making the 7th commandment read "Thou shalt commit adultery."