God botherers, I want your opinions.

[killbot1000]

It's a hard habit to break so I understand. Easter is coming up next week. Did you know that Easter is a borrowed concept from another religion? Fact is that most things in the christian religion were stolen from other religions and myths in that day. For example; there were many mythical figures who all had the same story line as Jesus, only their stories all came before the story of Jesus. Can you explain that logically? Here are two examples of them and how the story of Jesus may have started, a third was Buddha. Most of this can be documented in the book 'The power of Myths". The book (and matching video from most libraries) are an excellent resource of information. Keep in mind that this fable proceeded the one about Jesus, so it was well known at the time. It should also be noted that the very first christians addressed their prayers to 'Our Lord the Sun' - evidencing that 'primitive' Christians were quite in the spirit of Pagan forms and ideologies. Interestingly the Egyptian sun god Horus, had pre-dated the Jesus character by thousands of years. The story of Jesus shares the following with the story of Horus:

 

• Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a manger.

• His birth was being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.

• His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph").

• He was of royal descent.

• At age 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple.

• A aget 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.

• Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" ("John the Baptist"), who was decapitated.

• He had 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "Aan" (the two "Johns").

• He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris"), from the dead.

• Horus walked on water.

• His personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was thus called "Holy Child."

• He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."

• Horus was transfigured on the Mount.

• He was crucified between two thieves.

• He was buried for three days in a tomb, and then resurrected.

• He was also called the "Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "God's Anointed Son," the "Son of Man," the "Good Shepherd," the "Lamb of God," the "Word made flesh," the "Word of Truth," etc.

• Like Jesus, "Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years."

• Horus fed thousands (5000 to be exact) with just a few loaves of bread.

• Horus was called "the KRST," (pronounced Christ) or "Anointed One."

• He was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys") and the Lamb.

 

Another famous myth of the time where elements of Jesus appears is in the story of Mithras, which predates the story of Jesus by 600 years! As noted below the Orthodox Christian hierarchy is practically identical to the Mithraic version. Virtually all of the elements of the Orthodox Christian rituals (wafer, doxology, water baptism and alter) were adopted from the Mithra and earlier pagan religions. Jesus had the following similarities with Mithra, as the sun god (there's that sun worshiping aspect again) of ancient Persia:

 

• Mithra was born on December 25th as an offspring of the Sun.

• Both had virgin births.

• Next to the god Ormuzd, Mithra held the highest rank among the gods of ancient Persia. Next to God, Jesus holds the next highest rank.

• He was represented as a beautiful youth and a mediator.

• He was considered a great traveling teacher.

• He had twelve companions (Jesus had twelve disciples).

• Mithra was called "the good shepherd,” "the way, the truth and the light,” “redeemer,” “savior,” “Messiah."

• He was identified with both the lion and the lamb.

• Could also redeem the souls of the dead into heaven.

• Ceremonies included a sort of baptism to remove sins, anointing, and a sacred meal of bread and water, while a consecrated wine, believed to possess wonderful power.

• The mysteries of Mithras, which fell in the spring equinox, were famous even among the many Roman festivals, much like Easter is today among christians.

• Purified themselves by baptism.

• Their conceptions of the world and of the destiny of man were very similar.

• They both believed in the existence of a Heaven inhabited by beatified ones, situated in the upper regions, and of a Hell, peopled by demons, situated in the bowels of the earth.

• They both placed a flood at the beginning of history.

• Both performed the same exact miracles.

• They both believed in the immortality of the soul, in a last judgment, and in a resurrection of the dead.

• They both had disciples which formed an organized church, with a developed hierarchy.

• They both possessed the ideas of Mediation, Atonement, and a Savior, who is human and yet divine, and not only the idea, but a doctrine of the future life.

• They both had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper."

• They were both buried in a tomb and after three days they both rose again. Their resurrection was (is) celebrated every year.

• They both had the sacred day of Sunday, "the Lord's Day."

• "I am a star which goes with thee and shines out of the depths." - Mithraic saying" - I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star." - Jesus, (Rev. 22:16)

• Both were believed to be mankind's savior.

• Both were known as the Light of the world.

 

Now if the story of Jesus just had one or two similarities, well I can understand that, but when you can comprise a long list(s) as shown above, that speaks volumes to the open minded person. In fact, when christianity first started Pope Leo X, privileged to the truth because, well... he was afterall the pope, made this statement, "What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!" Anyone who knows about how the culture was back then knows that it was very common in those days to replicate stories, except for one or two changes like the name of the key figures. There are many other similarities, but do we really need any more to understand where the story of Jesus most likely originated from? No one is here to tell anyone which story to believe, but when several stories that are identical in nature predate one about a figure called Jesus, don't you think it would be nearly impossible to suggest that the story of Jesus was original? Here's how I look at it, I don't think that God would want anyone to spend their life believing in a lie. Far from it, I think when you show God that you, as a person, have enough backbone to search for the truth, that it would make God proud of you. Conversely, any religion that would try to make you feel guilty for searching for the truth, isn't one that I'd want to belong to. It's like they say, the truth will set you free. Here's something else to consider, there is a human phenomenon called “argumentum ad nauseam” which is when someone makes a false statement, and through prolonged repetition people begin to believe that the false statement is true. Some politicians make good use of this tactic. There is also something called "Communal Reinforcement" in which a claim becomes a strong belief through repeated assertion by members of a community. In both cases something false is repeated, and then believed or accepted by the person who keeps hearing it. Every cult leader knows the value of communal reinforcement, combined with isolating cult members from the truth. Both argumentum ad nauseam and communal reinforcement explain how a story, such as the one constantly repeated about Jesus, would be believed, but that doesn't make the story true. If you want to believe in the truth, then I suggest you focus on documented history.

Please stay seated until the ride comes to a complete stop

 

God has nothing to do with religion, and God certainly doesn't need religion, unless of course you're suggesting that God is vain

 

I absolutely loved this post! Couldn't agree more

[apowerr]

I absolutely loved this post! Couldn't agree more

Post #170 was indeed amazing. I've heard all of that before, and that and other things are the reasons that I'm not a Christian

[QuietOC]

Now if the story of Jesus just had one or two similarities, well I can understand that, but when you can comprise a long list(s) as shown above, that speaks volumes to the open minded person.

Really, what does it say? Similarities don't say much, really. Similarities can be caused by so many things: borrowing either way, common source, or coincidence. The Bible presents its story as NOT a unique invention. It actually states in many places that it does borrow from other works. And yet the exsistence of other questionable stories is suppossed to put into question a story that admits this? This is what you call "open mindedness?"

 

I dare say I see similarities between you and Mohammed, thus you must be fake. So, I don't see why I am even arguing with someone's contrived reinvention of Mohammed.

Conversely, any religion that would try to make you feel guilty for searching for the truth, isn't one that I'd want to belong to. It's like they say, the truth will set you free.

Again, quoting that "questionable" Jesus character again.

 

Both argumentum ad nauseam and communal reinforcement explain how a story, such as the one constantly repeated about Jesus, would be believed, but that doesn't make the story true. If you want to believe in the truth, then I suggest you focus on documented history.

And you are doing what?

 

I agree that much that passes as Christianity is evil and has nothing to do with the truth, but you have presented nothing to argue against a biblical understanding of God and religion. Why not stop beating us with your straw men arguments and pounding us with your agnostic dogma.

[danerd100]

Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a manger.

 

Quick note, they don't know when Jesus was born, they chose Dec. 25 because that was the same day as a Pegan holiday. People wanted to celebrate it, so the leader at the time set that date

[dark4181]

^Most bible scholars place Jesus' birth around September 29th, 5 b.c...

 

Dec 25th was chosen when Constantine brought Christianity into the mainstream and integrated some pagan beliefs and dates to ease the transition.. Hence my belief that the Roman Catholic Church has been a thing of corruption from the very beginning

 

Here's a link if anyone cares enough to read a long document about it: http://www.new-life.net/chrtms10.htm

[JonTheSavage]

it never will, but it does prove (beyond a reasonable doubt) many things.

 

christianity proves nothing but claims to answer all.

 

The only thing it proves is how you perceive reality.

If a rich fellow believes the world is flat, and %95 of the people back him, then it is true.

[danerd100]

You also have the problem that most research sites that might have this data are NOT assessable by the public. They are password protected. For example, I did come across two hits for this new virus a few days ago, but when I clicked on the link(s) the page(s) asked for an academic password, so the links were useless to post. Here is one such link.

 

 

I Know this is an old quote, but, I viewed the google cached page of this http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:RxxCC...lient=firefox-a

and there is nothing of this new virus. Please, provide accurate links. View the google cached page. It's a good way to get around that

[djet]

Ugh I'm not gonna wade through the 9 pages of flame wars.....

 

As a response to the first page asking about free will:

 

If you do believe in a God it would be a lot more comforting to know that He knows what will happen and not say, "Oh that surprised me!" And if He knows all that is coming then how can we go away from that....so maybe we can make our own decisions but they will always be known in advance.

[danerd100]

I used to believe that, but I do not know why, but I have come to realize this:

 

God Knows every combination of choices that one will make in their life time, He knows what choices can result from those. He knows with every combination whether you will go to heaven or hell. You have the choice though

[djet]

So yes you can make choices, and it feels like you're making choices....so what else matters? Sorta does make me think:

[apowerr]

How about this: Know one knows the result of your choices or destiny but you! If there is a God, It would most likely give a {censored} less about you and your choices.

 

I'll assume that choice is only an illusion, and in the end you're going to do what God has known you will from the beginning. Also assuming that there is a God, and that it made you somehow and assuming that there is a heaven or hell and that whether or not you end up there is the result of you're decision(Occam's razor tells us something about all of these assumptions ) : Wouldn't this mean that we are predestined to heaven or hell and God has sent us their out of it's choice?

[Paranoid Marvin]

There is no spoon.

[Maxintosh]

I absolutely loved this post! Couldn't agree more

Post #170 was indeed amazing.

Thanks Guys, truly appreciate it

 

^Most bible scholars place Jesus' birth around September 29th, 5 b.c...

I thought it was Sept. 17th, but no matter, the point is that the catholic church always moves the goal posts around to whatever suits them best. Another example of this is the story of the so-called prostitute in the bible. Fact is that she was NOT a prostitute, but one of the popes added that because (back then) people admired her more than any other figure in the bible, and women weren't 'allowed' to have that much power, so they said that she was a prostitute so that people wouldn't be so caring about her. The catholic church is famous for changing whatever they claim. Another example was about not eating meat on Fridays, then they said it was OK to do it, there are countless other examples of them moving the goal posts around to whatever helps them best. One more reason why I would never believe in anything that they claim, let alone devote my life to what would amount to a constantly changing lie, just because they said so.

 

If a rich fellow believes the world is flat, and %95 of the people back him, then it is true.

Wow, talk about being the poster boy for being delusional

 

If there is a God, It would most likely give a {censored} less about you and your choices.

Blame it on religion. They started this whole idea of creating a theory that supports this. I have actually spend a lot of time thinking about this topic and I think I have come across a solution that actually satisfies both sides, in other words, God can be all knowing - and yet a person can still make their own choices in life. I see it like this: think of life as a map, and if you decide to take one 'road' one set of circumstances will happen to you, and if you take another 'road' then another outcome will happen to you. Because we are viewing the 'map' from ground level we cannot see everything ahead of us, but God sees the 'map' from above, so he can see every 'road' and where each leads. We always have free will to take any 'road' that we want, we just won't know where it will end up, where as God would. Also like on a map some roads are one way, and some are two way. Some messes in life we can't go back and get out of, and some we can. Think back on your life about decisions you've made. Think about how one of those decisions then lead to another, that wouldn't have been possible if not for your first choice. This is how a map works

[danerd100]

Another example of this is the story of the so-called prostitute in the bible. Fact is that she was NOT a prostitute, but one of the popes added that because (back then) people admired her more than any other figure in the bible, and women weren't 'allowed' to have that much power, so they said that she was a prostitute so that people wouldn't be so caring about her.

 

I want a link pointing to this. I think u just made that up.

 

Another example was about not eating meat on Fridays, then they said it was OK to do it, there are countless other examples of them moving the goal posts around to whatever helps them best.

 

I wonder that sometimes too, why would they add that, I am not catholic, I a Lutheran, so I cannot give you an explanation for that

[Paranoid Marvin]

How about this: Know one knows the result of your choices or destiny but you! If there is a God, It would most likely give a {censored} less about you and your choices.

 

A perfect example of how arrogant man kind is.

We even think we aren't animals, and that combining our genes with animals is completely wrong.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7310496.stm

 

Of course, we are 97% chimp, aren't we. But no, we are special, made in god's eye.

 

Yeah right, next they'll tell me it's snowing at Easter

[QuietOC]

. I have actually spend a lot of time thinking about this topic and I think I have come across a solution that actually satisfies both sides, in other words, God can be all knowing - and yet a person can still make their own choices in life.

To make any choice one must be able to determine it yourself. Wherever you place that determination is irrelevant--normal space-time reality is sufficient (as opposed to Platonic higher extra-natural/spiritual levels). Where is there conflict? Everything just is determined. If(since) this is true, "God" is the one who determines everything. And we are able to choose (determine) because we exist in a determined world. And the only way God makes our choices is the way he has made us (and our world).

 

Middle knowledge (knowledge about possible outcomes) is useless.

[killbot1000]

I find it funny we always refer to god as "He". Patriarchal societal rubbish I say...

 

We think we're special because it's us judging ourselves...we are animals, plain and simple.

 

We have opposable thumbs, we have slightly bigger brains that most primates, but make no mistake about it, we are descended from primates. The DNA evidence indicates it, Evolutionary theory indicates it, almost all the evidence available to us indicates it.

 

It is time to stop fighting it. Whether we LIKE to believe it or not, moral relativism rules the day, we just take our own morals in everyday life and SAY that they are universal, but in reality, they are not.

 

We can have morals that are accepted by the vast majority of human beings, but one will never find universal morals. As soon as we say something is universal, there is one example to throw a wrench into the entire argument.

 

We can kill people who don't agree with us, but the reality is that no matter how much better we will feel, this still does not make our brand of morals universal.

 

The implication of this argument/truth is that a god or gods do not exist, at least these gods or god do not exist today, as for the past, we cannot be certain.

 

With this implication in place, we would still not have total free will, I would call it partial free will. I feel that its this partial free will that we all experience. There are choices we make ourselves, and there are choices that are made for us through politics, the environment, social standing, etc.

 

All of these things add up to the conclusion that we have partial free will, not total free will, and most certainly not a predetermined future.

 

Also to throw out an argument against what I am saying, if time is static, meaning its already happened before and it will happen again (meaning all of time is like a big movie thats already been made) then one might perceive this to be a lack of free will. Knowing what decisions one is going to make and making decisions for them are two different things. If "god" or whatever else knows what decisions we are going to make ahead of time, this does not change that these decisions were ours to make in the first place, even if our choice could be predicted.

 

Just thought id throw some heavy stuff out there...

[djet]

We can kill people who don't agree with us, but the reality is that no matter how much better we will feel, this still does not make our brand of morals universal.

 

Christianity doesn't apply to animals.

 

Also to throw out an argument against what I am saying, if time is static, meaning its already happened before and it will happen again (meaning all of time is like a big movie thats already been made) then one might perceive this to be a lack of free will. Knowing what decisions one is going to make and making decisions for them are two different things. If "god" or whatever else knows what decisions we are going to make ahead of time, this does not change that these decisions were ours to make in the first place, even if our choice could be predicted.

 

That's sorta what I am saying. Sure our decisions may be known before we make them, but WE don't know them so it is OUR decisions, but what we decide was already predicted.

[killbot1000]

Christianity doesn't apply to animals.

 

You replied to my statement with this...what does that mean. I don't see it having anything to do with what I said.

[djet]

Now looking over your post again I feel that I misunderstood Universal Morals. Do you mean like a common belief that everyone shares?

[killbot1000]

No I mean what's right and wrong (dont kill people, dont steal, etc.) that is what I mean by morals.

 

Belief has nothing to do with morals. On that note, Christians, and religious people do not have a monopoly on morality. Atheists, Satanists, and agnostics can have just as many morals as christians (or lack thereof). Religious belief has nothing to do with morality at all, it only has to do with how this morality is channeled in everyday life.

[djet]

It would be truly naive if people thought they could get everyone to believe a universal moral; people are different and always will be.

 

Not sure how this negates the possibility of a god or gods though....

[apowerr]

I'm still having a hard time understanding what some of you believe. Could someone who thinks that God knows all of their choices answer my earlier question?

I'll assume that choice is only an illusion, and in the end you're going to do what God has known you will from the beginning. Also assuming that there is a God, and that it made you somehow and assuming that there is a heaven or hell and that whether or not you end up there is the result of you're decision(Occam's razor tells us something about all of these assumptions ) : Wouldn't this mean that we are predestined to heaven or hell and God has sent us their out of it's choice?

[Maxintosh]

I thought it was Sept. 17th

Well I was close, it is April 17, 6 B.C. You can read the full transcript if you wish, but this is a link to the important part

 

I want a link pointing to this.

Gee... you mean documentation in books mean nothing these days Don't tell me you're one of those borg who think that all of mankind's knowledge is on the net. LOL

 

I think u just made that up.

That would be your loss and nobody elses. Apparently you're not much of a history (or research) buff Give me a good reason to go through the trouble of doing your work and researching it for you and I will. There are many books written about this, plus even CNN did a special report on the topic just before Christmas of last year. This fact about Mary Magdolin it is actually common knowledge amongst most religious scholars.

 

Wouldn't this mean that we are predestined to heaven or hell and God has sent us their out of it's choice?

Not only that but it would suggest that we are only here for God's entertainment value

 

Since God would supposedly "already know" how everything ends up - our lives would be reduced to being like him watching an old TV rerun

[killbot1000]

It would be truly naive if people thought they could get everyone to believe a universal moral; people are different and always will be.

 

Not sure how this negates the possibility of a god or gods though....

 

Because if there are a god or gods then morals WOULD BE universal, whether we chose to believe them or not. If we are religious and we admit that morals are not universal, then our belief in god/gods is only a fairy tail, one which comforts us when we sleep at night. At this point, God is a fairy tail even if god really exists.