Israel and Palestine

[Swad]

For what it's worth... the initial plan back in the day was for Israel and the Palestinians to share the land that is now Israel and that Jerusalem would become a UN governed city owned by no one (kinda like DC in America).

 

For the Palestinians, it was all or nothing. So they got nothing. I don't have much sympathy for that.

[gwprod12]

Yeah really.

 

I'm tired of hearing about 9/11 as well. People are constantly dying. Stuff is constantly falling apart and being blown up. The fact that some overzealous religious nuts flew a plane into the bastion of rapacious capitalism doesnt even compare with the fact that there are people in the world who dont have food.

 

What 9/11 should have taught us is that there's a price to be paid for sucking every last smidgeon of resources out of a poor country and giving nothing back, except jumbo jets to the El Presidentes.

 

Let's get over it and move on. That goes for you Arabs, and you Iranians, and everyone else too.

 

I just hope that when Bush is gone and so is republican control of the legislature, that we'll get some reason back into our government.

[Mebster]

But how old is Islam? Exactly when does it get old?

Of course, we should recognize that Islam is in a fact 7th century idea that essentially copied the monotheistic ideas of Judiasm and Christianity (which are even older, of course) and merely integrated them with ancient Arabic tradition.

 

"But how old is Islam?" - seems you know that.

"Exactly when does it get old?" - 5years is quiet old enough. I would have called it old after 2 but now that we're at 5 its ancient.

"Islam is in a fact 7th century idea that essentially copied the monotheistic ideas of Judiasm and Christianity" - Copied? Of course it's copied. Its an upgrade (if you like) on them. So how can it not a be a copy. In wasn't a fresh install. LOL. And anyway it had to be a copy of parts as Allah sent both the thora and bible before the Quran to the respective people (as we believe). I assumed you knew this already.

 

For what it's worth... the initial plan back in the day was for Israel and the Palestinians to share the land that is now Israel and that Jerusalem would become a UN governed city owned by no one (kinda like DC in America).

 

For the Palestinians, it was all or nothing. So they got nothing. I don't have much sympathy for that.

Ok I don't really think that was a bad idea and have no idea why they refused it. I will look into it. But history is one thing. Seeing palestinians dieing on the steets every day (and not teh people of Lebenon) is another. Who cares why the refused the offer. Do something about the current situation. Israel is attacking which ever nation it feel it seeds to as that can't be good for anyone. Otherwise WWIII here we come. Israels aggression needs to be stoped by the UN. It's creating unstability in teh region and all over kidnaped soldiers. I mean has any other nation in recient history attacked another over allegations?

 

Yeah really.

 

I'm tired of hearing about 9/11 as well. People are constantly dying. Stuff is constantly falling apart and being blown up. The fact that some overzealous religious nuts flew a plane into the bastion of rapacious capitalism doesnt even compare with the fact that there are people in the world who dont have food.

 

What 9/11 should have taught us is that there's a price to be paid for sucking every last smidgeon of resources out of a poor country and giving nothing back, except jumbo jets to the El Presidentes.

 

Let's get over it and move on. That goes for you Arabs, and you Iranians, and everyone else too.

 

I just hope that when Bush is gone and so is republican control of the legislature, that we'll get some reason back into our government.

 

"Let's get over it and move on." - So true. And the rest makes sence too.

[moseschrist]

Ok I don't really think that was a bad idea and have no idea why they refused it. I will look into it. But history is one thing. Seeing palestinians dieing on the steets every day (and not teh people of Lebenon) is another. Who cares why the refused the offer. Do something about the current situation. Israel is attacking which ever nation it feel it seeds to as that can't be good for anyone. Otherwise WWIII here we come. Israels aggression needs to be stoped by the UN. It's creating unstability in teh region and all over kidnaped soldiers. I mean has any other nation in recient history attacked another over allegations?

 

if you really believe isreal is attacking for nothing than you really are brainwashed.

 

three abducted soldiers is good enough reason to attack, espcially if they were kidnapped from YOUR OWN COUNTRY, israel wasn't in lebanon, israel wasn't in gaza. imagine your own son being kidnapped, your doughter, your brother or sister, imagine constant missles attacking your home.

 

and don't tell me that those missles don't kill cause they have hit noumerous times beside schools, and kindergartens and now when the Qasams (or is it Kasam ?) are hitting factories in other cities, factories which are contain explosive chemecals, it doesn't take more than one missle... so what do you want ? for us to wait for the boom and then attack ? or how about sit next to fire and sing kumbaya ? as lons as missles are flying from Gaza and Lebanon israel will defend itself.

 

we didn't start this round of bloodshed, we tried to end it, we pulled back from gaza, plans were in the making of pulling back to `67 borders. it's palastinian attacks which started this round of violence.

 

i'm sorry for all the bloodshed, but as it stands now, it's not our fault.

[RockoTDF]

it's not israel who convinced USA that, it's the palastinians...

sending a suicide bomber shows that you have no respect for life.

giving candy to ppl on the street after an israeli PM had died and after an attack on israeli citizens shows that

your ppl have no respect for life.

your belief that if you kill your self for the cause in order to "gain" 47 virgins in the after life shows that you have no respect for life.

 

He said he was a Christian, therefore the belief in martyrdom with virgins and all that is not his.

 

Now for my two cents.

 

When my dad was in the (US) Air Force we were stationed over there while he was working at the embassy. I had the good fortune to live in Israel after the gulf war, when Rabin had fixed things up. Until later when a young israeli man from the town I lived in (herzeleah petuwakh) shot him. Israelis stopping the peace process is a common theme over there.

 

The Israelis are to blame for their situation. You would think that after the holocaust they would learn to be compassionate with civilians and understand how delicate life is. As someone who has been to the West Bank and seen the shape the people are in, I can hardly blame them for what they do. You know what Gaza reminds me of? Jewish Ghettos in the 30s and 40s in Nazi Germany. I know that many in the Israeli government and military would set up concentration camps and just kill them all if they could get away with it. They elected a known war criminal (Sharon) to be their prime minister a few years back! Demolishing poeples homes with bulldozers is a war crime. They have killed aid workers, missionaries, and numerous other third parties in the region trying to feed, clothe, and give medical support to children as mentioned earlier. The hypocrisy disgusts me, and sometimes I just wish the US would get its {censored} together and blockade israel and bomb its air force (which we furnished them with, essentially) out of existance.

 

The entire country is brainwashed by their compulsory military program. When everyone is forced to fight, how can there be any progress towards peace? I know there are good israelis. But from our experience there, we enjoyed the palestinians we knew in old jerusalem far more than the israelis. The Israeli people have little common manners, they cut in lines at movie theaters, etc, like a bunch of 8 year olds. I could go on forever (I just deleted a massive thing of personal anecdotes) about bad experiences with the israelis. It may sound trivial, but how can a country that interacts so negatively with each other be expected to get on with other nations and peoples?

 

Their government spies on the US like we are their enemy. The Military knows this, as does the state department and the alphabet soup of other government agencies (CIA, NSA, etc). But the jewish lobby in washington makes sure nothing is done about it. I honestly believe that if we had been more impartial in the past 9/11 might have not happened. The Israeli parlimentary system is set up so it is easy to do things like call votes of no confidence, meaning that right wing parties can easily annihalate legislation that would lead to peace or help the situation.

 

Having said all that, I do not like that hamas and other organizations have so many ties to al qaeda which has attacked both of my countries (I was born in england to an english mother but my dad is american). They need to cut that out if they want more help from the outside world. As it stands rigth now, I would be more comfortable providing aid to the palestinians, but I know the rest of both of my countries wouldnt. Suicide bombings against civilians need to stop, they need to focus their attacks on military and government targets if they want to be recognized as legitimiate freedom fighters instead of terrorists. Lebanon needs to get hezbollah under control and stand up to syria, but that all will take a long time.

[OryHara]

I've deleted both of your last posts to keep this thread clean, friendly, and on topic. I not a huge censorship fan either, but your posts had fallen into ad hominem attacks. Nothing against you guys, it's just obvious that this is a passionate topic for both of you.

It being off topic, I don't blame you and am glad you did, he was trying to get everyone off topic... As I said in the post that was deleted. Censorship however, if it were on topic I wouln't like it.

 

He shouln't be bringing up old stuff from other posts. He can post in that topic, not on this one.

 

But as I said in my other post, not related to above reply to Mash.. which is back on topic. I stand by Israel no matter what.

[killbot1000]

That’s the brightest thing I’ve every heard. That clearly is the solution we've all been looking for. To destroy a city held sacred to the worlds three largest religious groups. Christians, Muslims and Jews.

"You should be a negotiator" Or maybe ask to work in the UN.

WORLD PEACE, HERE WE COME (all thanks to our friend gwprod12)

--------------------

Mash I have to apologise for everything, but OryHara is the stupidest dude I’ve ever encountered. Well at least his arguments are. He's made this topic about Islam with attacks on it. And as a Muslim so I can't sit back and rest while my faith is being abused in front of me. So I’ve dragged it on. Sorry.

 

I used unnecessary language I know. Which isn't good at all.. but he uses words like "you", "you bombed our country", "we bombed your country". I don't know where he thinks I’m from. Maybe he thinks I’m an Arab. I don't really care where I’m from but well I’m not an Arab. I'm British.

 

I think it was 0uch!p0tat0 who said it the best. Not to quote him exactly but it was something like "it's been 5 years since 9/11. Get over it!" I really can't add any more to that. It's perfect. I'm tired of hearing 9/11 this and 9/11 that, all the time when arguing about something.

 

OryHara has this idea that maybe "I personally" bombed America. When in actual fact I got bombed also. And I would argue with a lot more devastative effect (I know many will disagree and that’s fine). I'm from London and I remember when it got bombed on Jull 7 and again on July 21. I was like the rest of the Londoners, calling friends and loved ones to make sure they are safe. And then to later find out a close "Muslims" friends (take note), family member wasn't.

 

There were 4 different explosions on the 7th and 4 more on the 21st. Although the total fatalities were far less than the 9/11 incident that fact that the bombings happened on different days with only 14 days between them, put a sense of fear that it was going to happen again. And soon.

 

All Londoners, me included had to go through that. But one thing the makes me proud to be a Londoner (not British necessarily) is that we pulled through it and did not fall into the pit of anger and hostility the US went through and still is in. It was a years anniversary, 9 days ago since the July 7th bombing and most Londoners went about their normal business. Not constantly looking behind their back for the next guy that comes around the corner with a long beard. And for that reason I’m proud to live here. I just wish the US could only be as strong. They went through a traumatic time which no one should go through. But it's long gone now. If Londoners can leave it behind within a year then 5 years should certainly be enough time for the US to also forget.

 

I don't know if OryHara needs counselling (I’m serious here). Maybe he lost someone and hence the anger and unprovoked (not completely I agree) attacks on Islam and me, but he needs to move on. Support Israel if he wants to but to use statements like "Israel will always stand, and their enemies will be destroyed" are not helpful here. Neither are the "you", "your country", "your Islam".

I don't want this topic to be about Islam although it is related either. There's already a topic for that. But quit the Islam bashing because it's getting old now. 5 years old.

If i can respect other faiths and traditions then we should all be able to too as I’m no different to anyone else.

 

 

Yeah, I agree, Im American, from Seattle, but honestly theres other places in the world where terrorist attacks happen every day and people need to realize that the whole world doesnt change just because of one terrorist attack. Frankly I have no fear of terrorists, Im actually more afraid of what my own government is doing (patriot act, wiretapping, department of homeland security) basically the government using 9/11 as an excuse to take away people's constitutional rights in the name of "safety". Seriously if I had to choose between freedom and safety, I'd always choose freedom.

 

Also, im smart enough to know that the people who attacked the twin towers 5 years ago werent muslims, they were a radical sect of islam and its not represenative of the whole population (thank god - well, I dont believe in god, but thats not the point heheh). Its all just f***ed up really, people really havent changed since ancient times, we still judge on race, its f***ing ridiculous!

 

Thanks for the good post Aceplayer

 

It being off topic, I don't blame you and am glad you did, he was trying to get everyone off topic... As I said in the post that was deleted. Censorship however, if it were on topic I wouln't like it.

 

He shouln't be bringing up old stuff from other posts. He can post in that topic, not on this one.

 

But as I said in my other post, not related to above reply to Mash.. which is back on topic. I stand by Israel no matter what.

 

Yknow what I find funny, people think that the jews have a claim to that land, but really nobody does, neither the palestinians or the Israeli's. The land belonged to somebody else before the jews swept in in ancient times and took it over. And then it was controlled by rome, then the ottoman empire, then after all that time its given back? Really...it doesnt belong to anyone, and standing by something without even questioning why...is kinda scary

[gwprod12]

Ohhh, a fellow seattleite!

[killbot1000]

Ohhh, a fellow seattleite!

 

Gotta love seattle, heheh actually seattle actually is quite a good city, highest concentration of college graduates, most fit city, and the most literate in america its gotta be doing something right, right? heheh

[gwprod12]

Seattle cant be the fittest city... Everyone I know is a tub of lard.

[johnniecarcinogen]

Used to live in puyallup, (south sound). Seattle is definately one of my favorite places in the world but I also doubt that seattle is the fittest city in America.

[gwprod12]

I wish it was the fittest city in the country. I know I need to lose a pound or three.

[killbot1000]

Used to live in puyallup, (south sound). Seattle is definately one of my favorite places in the world but I also doubt that seattle is the fittest city in America.

 

according to wikipedia its the fittest city in america, and its got citations

 

sadly, it is the fittest, I know you see your share of fat people here, but if youve ever been to texas...damn, everybody is fat there.

[gwprod12]

I should move to texas. I'd fight right in. (aside from the whole boys kissing boys thing anyways)

[urielka]

ok as i see ppl doesn`t really understand what is going here i will try to explain it from my pov(i am israeli living in Kfar Saba,1 hour from tel aviv to the north,and have two relatives(20,21 years old) serving in the army).

 

first of all,ppl that send their own child to kill them self instead of fighting on their own are not humans,sorry i said that,but if they don`t respect life they don`t respect {censored}.

 

second,in 47 the divition was 40% to israel.

 

third,we(as the israeli nation) always tried to get piece over here,we gaved them land then more land,then we gave them land without even asking for anything(that was the Hitnatukut),the problem is that palestinians(atleast the right extreme) don`t want to co-exsist they just want to exsist w/o israel,we do want them to be here,we don`t mind.

 

now about what is going on in lebanon is not just coz they kidnap soldiers,it is beacuse they think they can do with israeli bold whatever they want,last time that happend 6 million jews were killed.

 

also most of lebanon(52%) which is not Shiy(i don`t know how it is in english,sorry) doesn`t want Hizbolla,ppl over there hate them as the only thing they do is getting their ass into a war they can`t win.

 

as a israeli i saw alot of ppl die,friends who died,family who died and all of that by ppl who sent they own childs,their own bold and flesh to suscdie in the name of god.

 

the islam is not terrorisem, Hamas and Hizbolla are terrorist and if USA can defend themself,we as a country can defend ourself.

 

if you ppl would live here you would understand,i know it is easy to talk about peace when you are siting far away from the war,but when you are in the war and you understand that talking to a wall is impossible,you try diffrent ways.

 

war is wrong,always,but sending child to their death in the name of god is unhuman.

they should be jugjed in Hag as crimnals of war.

 

many of you ppl live in countries that haven`t have war for over 50 years,i envy you about having so much damn luck,you don`t understand what is going to a bus and not know if the man standing right next to you is going to kill you.

[killbot1000]

I should move to texas. I'd fight right in. (aside from the whole boys kissing boys thing anyways)

 

heheh

[munky]

Mash - why was the UN plan to award OVER 50% of the land to the Jews, who represented about a third of the population?

 

Also, the kidnap of two soldiers and the killing of 8 more is certainly an act of war. However, does this justify rocket attacks on civilians and civilian infrastructure (eg Beirut airport) ? Dont you think the response was a *little* overboard?

[Mebster]

and don't tell me that those missles don't kill cause they have hit noumerous times beside schools, and kindergartens and now when the Qasams (or is it Kasam ?) are hitting factories in other cities, factories which are contain explosive chemecals, it doesn't take more than one missle... so what do you want ?

What about the fact that Israel is targeting oil tankers that generate power for the region. Attacking them causes no real blow to Hizbolla but only increases the suffering of the Lebanon people.

 

Israel targets the oil tankers on peruse. And oil tanker for ~@#] sake. That thing could have started a chain of reactions and caused hundreds of fatalities. Hizbolla on the other hand have no real idea what their rockets are going to hit. That’s why 90% either miss or cause some sort of structural damage. However when an Israeli missile misses, it’s just as destructive as if it had hit the target.

--------

The attacking of Beirut airport just shows that this has nothing to do with Hizbolla or Hamas. It's an attack on the Lebanese people. Attacking the airport puts a strain on all the citizens who would want to get out of the way of the Israeli war. But now they can't. BTW these people include Americas, British and many other countries citizens who are there. I'm sure you've seen on the news how Americans are wondering how they can get out of the way of fighting since the airports struck by Israel is not in operation.

[Swad]

munky and aceplayer-

 

Yeah, this situation is really complex. Hizbolla (sp?) essentially runs the southern part of the country and is well entrenched in the government. The Lebanese gov't has done a great job making progress toward democracy... but they haven't done anything to stop Hizbolla. At this point, Hizbolla is also in direct violation of the UN mandate to disarm. They're also likely getting weapons from Iran and Syria at this point.

 

Now, you're Israel. You've got groups lobbing bombs at you right and left. They don't have weapon armories, they have boxes of launchers in homes and cars. How do you cut down on their ability to indiscriminately kill your people? You take out their methods for getting those weapons - that means infrastructure. Power stations in Hizbolla strong holds, the airports they use, the TV stations they use. You've got to remember that these people are fairly autonomous in Lebanon... meaning that while the airport, etc is legally Lebanese... it's being shared in rights by Hizbolla.

 

At this point, Lebanon hasn't done much to stop Hizbolla. They really can't. And Hizbolla won't stop on their own.

 

So what is Israel to do other than retaliate?

[Mebster]

 

America can't protect Israel forever. The sooner they stop killing their Arab neighbours the better it is for them.

 

It only takes one good leader for all Muslims to get up and do what is necessary. I'm talking military action (Israeli style). Not terrorism.

[gwprod12]

Isreal has one of the best trained militaries on the planet. Middle-eastern nations arent exactly known for their military prowess (think Gulf War, 6-day war, Iraq War, etc)

 

When someone else's existence is provocation for violence, reason cannot prevail, and peace is impossible.

[munky]

ureilka and others disputing the facts of the '47 resolution:

 

"The partition plan gave 56.47% of Palestine to the Jewish state and 43.53% to the Arab state, with an international enclave around Jerusalem."

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/midd...e/html/1947.stm

 

Unless of course the BBC has it wrong, in which case you should submit a correction.

 

Mash: so in essence, what you're saying is that if you are a civilian who happens to find themselves living under an oppressive regime, you should be prepared to be killed? Does that seem reasonable?

[Mebster]

Msn News: Israel continues bombardment of Lebanon

"Israel and Hizbollah showed no willingness to end the fighting, which has killed 235 people in Lebanon and 25 Israelis".

 

And that’s not taking into account all the Palestinian victims also.

And all for 3 soldiers who aren't even dead.

 

You call this proportionate? This is slaughter.

[gwprod12]

So, Isreal should do nothing when it's soldiers are kidnapped? They should do nothing when a cafe is blown up by a suicide bomber? They should do nothing when a legislator is assassinated? They should do nothing when Hezbollah lobs a rocket into a neighbourhood?

 

I'm capable of looking at both sides. Why arent you?

[Swad]

No, it's definitely not proportionate. It's war. The terrorists declared war on Israel - that's what taking hostages means.

 

And all for 3 soldiers who aren't even dead.

 

What would you rather them do?

 

Here's my question: What options does Israel have left? Do nothing? Nuke the place?

 

BTW - when Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel, Israel gave back their land (even though it had tons of oil). They've proven that they they'll do the same with Palestine, but the Palestinians and Hamas prove time and again that they won't let it happen.

 

If Arabs would recognize Israel and actually stop firing at them, there would be peace... and a Palestinian state. Until they do that, I have very little sympathy.