Israel and Palestine

[gwprod12]

Islam is currently in a dark age. Joy.

[free30]

Islam is currently in a dark age. Joy.

 

I'm no expert but why type hateful {censored} like that? All you do is show how little you know.

How dose a religion have a dark age?

Free30

[Swad]

Just a note: This is not another thread about Islam, so posts about that will be BALETED! (To quote homestar runner)

 

Ace- I deleted your post because 1)you called the guy a retard and 2) all the stuff you were responding to had already been deleted by a mod in one case or the poster in another. I'll let this last one stand, but let's try to keep it civil, ok? No namecalling.

 

Also, where did you get those numbers you quoted earlier?

 

Munky-

Yeah, that journal article is pretty right wing... a little too much for my taste, but it brings up a good point: The US wants (as does the rest of the world) to cut down or terrorism but the states that are sponsoring it aren't getting much punishment. Is the US the world police? Nah, they shouldn't be... but someone is going to have to do something about Syria and Iran because, frankly, they're threats to everyone.

 

That article did make some great points (at the beginning) about Israel defending itself.

 

I'm expressing my views on this just because I'm tired of the world saying that Israel is overreacting. Their soldiers have been kidnapped. That's grounds for war. Period.

[gwprod12]

How does a religion have a dark age? Let's see. When Christianity first became a big deal, it was during roman times. When the empire fell, instead of people living a civilized existence in cities with plumbing and whatnot, they burned witches and were afraid of spirits in their dung houses. Hence, the Dark Ages. They didnt call them that because they were dark.

 

Two hundred years ago, Baghdad was the height of civilized society. So was Constantinople. With the dissolution of the Ottoman empire, the peoples in the middle east have gone from education and culture to suicide bombers and religious hate schools.

 

See where I'm going? Is it maybe more fair to call it the "Middle Eastern Dark Age"? vs the "European Dark Age"? Maybe. But just as Christianity was the major influence on people's lives in the christian dark ages, so too is Islam in the islamic dark ages. A thousand years ago, Knights of Europe were called apon to cleanse the land of the unbeliever. In the present, Hamas and Al-queda are called apon to cleanse the land of the unbeliever.

[moseschrist]

"

"The Zionist project of the 1920s and 1930s saw hundreds of thousands of Jews emigrating to British Mandate Palestine, provoking unrest in the Arab community.

 

In 1922, a British census showed the Jewish population had risen to about 11% of Palestine's 750,000 inhabitants. More than 300,000 immigrants arrived in the next 15 years. "

 

I know there were jews there already, but it does sound like a massive influx. I mean, dont get me wrong - after WW2 I can totally understand them wanting their own state. I'm just not sure about some of the methods employed...

"

 

those immigrants came to israel and settled on lands which were either bought off by the "Keren Kayemet Le`Israel", an organization dedicated to collonising israel with jewish ppl, others have settled on barrier lands, and started communities based on agriculture, they worked together with the muslim and christian residents but mainly they were all jewish communities.

no one took the lands of the muslims on those days.

the problem was when the UN came up with a plan to divide the land to an arab state and an israeli state,

the jews accepted, the arabs objected, and all the surrounding arab nations started a war against the new country, the israelis had "won" (there is no winner in wars, no matter what they tell you !) the arab residents ran away from their lands during the war.

now they want to return to a land that doesn't exist no more, personally i would ask for the same thing, BUT it's unrealized, it can't happen, they cant return to where they lived, those places don't exist. the only solution to this problem will only happen as part of the creation of a palastinian state which will live side by side with israel.

 

this is my opinion, and AFAIK the opinion of most israelis.

 

 

about that overreacting thing,

let me ask one thing, say thay your country is attacked, this is war, right ? and do you attack back, still with me ? would you do to them the exact same thing or at least on that magnitude ?

what good will come of that ? so they againg do the same and you do the same, it would never end, it's just a vicious game for both sides, instead you need to make sure that the one who attacked you understands that this attack will come at a price which they can't afford, they cannot win stuff by shooting rockets, it's too easy, the only way to settle this while sitting on a chair in an airconditioned room behind a table (not the room, you)

unfortunatly there is no one to talk to at the moment, the hamas wants israel gone, the hezbolla wants israel gone, the only one you could talk to is the chairman of the palastinian autority, but he has no power nor control over hamas. big problem aint it ?

[gwprod12]

I'm all for Islam, and Christianity and every other religion. Just keep it to yourself. And dont get all freaked out about the "Jewish" conspiracy.

 

Looking at one side of the situation is always dangerous.

 

There's those who say "Isreal is just defending itself from evil terrorists, and if you dont agree, you hate jews"

There's those who say "Those mean Jews keep bulldozing poor Palestinian houses. If you dont agree, you hate Islam"

 

When really, both are true, and in equal proportion. Both sides are at fault.

[biped]

kum ba ya my ........ errr

 

how does an agnostic complete this tune in a politically correct manner

 

seems like history is full of bloodshed surrounding religious motivations

 

not too holly if you ask me

[OryHara]

I suppose that in practice, any military force could be considered terrorists...

 

Is a terrorist someone who kills people?

I don't believe so. A terrorist force would probably be one that clashes down on 'civilians' as a 'civilian'. Military would be considered war, or battle. Killing is killing, but there are different classifications of killing. I would suppose it depends on if you stand on 'government' side of the fence, or 'civilian' side of the fence.

 

If military kills a civilian, its murder, not terrorism. If military kills military its war/battle. Militant leaders could probably be classified as terrorists if they kill 'mass' numbers of civilians in the ranges of thousands.

 

It all boils down to a classification system.

[OryHara]

He hates Muslims. FULL STOP. Do reason necessary. He has tried provoking Islam more than once now. Why, I don't know.

Your extremists also assumed America was "The Great Satan" or some other {censored} like that too. Your post being removed just shows how easily Muslim extremists are "set off".

 

I never said I hated anyone. If you read my other posts you would know that "I hate the devil inside the person." not the person.

 

Maybe he was raped by a someone who he thought was a Muslim....but well I guess we'll never know.

Does the Koran encourage that? I guess running Boeing AirBuses into large buildings isn't enough. I guess you are pissed because the Jews are God's chosen people... and not the Muslims. You guys have been fighting for years. I can see why Israel is winning.

 

I was gonna stay out of this for the most part. But it looks like I have set off a ticking time bomb.. Oops. Maybe I shouldn't use the word "bomb" around you.

[Mebster]

No one reasonable wants Islam to be destroyed. Everyone just wants Islam to stay over there. Leave us out of it.

What do you mean leave us out of it? Islam isn't an object that I can hand to you. It's a belief you have. And I’m sure regardless of where you live, there are countless number of people who have become (not born) Muslim. So you want them to 'leave' also?

People keep saying 'leave us out'. I've heard it too often. But they don't really know this isn't possible even if Muslims wanted to. Since people in remote countries are becoming Muslims not necessarily through direct contact with Muslims but using the internet and other sources now available. So dude... we can't leave you out.

 

Both sides are acting like whiney babies...they really just need to grow up, both of them, and treat each other like human beings. Contrary to popular belief the Muslims treated the Jews just fine in "the golden age of Islam" much better than Jews were treated in Europe during the same time.

I really wise more people knew that about Muslims. And how they were more fait to minorities than any nation at the time was. Compared to most countries now, they are still more fair. That's partly why i feel bitter. Muslims treated the Jew well... all they do in return in bomb.

 

Islam is currently in a dark age. Joy.

Dark ages? lol. You really don't know anything about Islam. When were blacks given right and the recognition in the 'modern-western' world? About 40 years ago? Islam more than 1400 years ago! When were woman given rights? About the same time? Islam 1400 years ago! Islam is a lot more advanced than you give it credit. Unless you also classify 40 years ago the 'dark ages' too.

 

And you can't compare the Christian crusade with Muslims. Christians invaded and killed... without reason. Muslims did not. Sure some twats did. And large sections may have gone astray but that’s what happens in life.

 

I'm no expert but why type hateful {censored} like that? All you do is show how little you know.

I know what you mean dude. That sort of {censored} shouldn't be said to anyone. Muslim or Jew. It's just hurtful unnecessarily.

 

Ace- I'll let this last one stand, but let's try to keep it civil, ok? No namecalling.

Sorry dude. OryHara just pisses me off with his arrogance. It's intoxicating!

 

Munky-

The US wants (as does the rest of the world) to cut down or terrorism but the states that are sponsoring it aren't getting much punishment. Is the US the world police? Nah, they shouldn't be... but someone is going to have to do something about Syria and Iran because, frankly, they're threats to everyone.

 

That article did make some great points (at the beginning) about Israel defending itself.

 

I'm expressing my views on this just because I'm tired of the world saying that Israel is overreacting. Their soldiers have been kidnapped. That's grounds for war. Period.

 

The soldiers were kidnapped. Not killed as we know very well he could have been. Instead of realising that, (what any sane person would) that the solders fate depends direct on how Israel negotiates... What do they do? They bomb other (not Palestinian) nation’s Airports, streets, Power Plants and Official buildings! Simply on the basis of allegations. WTF? Is this the kind of world we live in? You try someone because you suspect they were involved. ohh yeah... Guantanamo. No wonder the US backs Israel. I'm really not bothered about the soldier being taken as long as he is released safely. (I know many people are and I understand that... but I’m one that is hopeful) The Palestinians need something to bargain with and this is the plainest option available. But bombing foreign nations in not the way to go. As if the suffering of the Palestinian people isn't enough. You have to inflict terror on other nations. BTW yesterday Israel killed people. They killed 12. See what I mean about the disproportionate overreacting?

 

Iran and Syria a great threat? Have you seen the latest missile tests done my North Korea? Who's the greater threat? Those missiles have the possible capability to reach the US. But wait.... there's no oil in N Korea. Plenty of weapons of mass destruction...but no oil.

 

I'm sorry to say this people but I’m going to when they flex their muscles and show the world (and especially the US) what they are made of. And when they launch a missile to hit near the US coast I’m going o fall of my seat laughing.

 

I'm not saying I want any casualties. I just want the American people to "wake up and smell the coffee".

[OryHara]

all they do in return in bomb.

There you go with the "bombs" again. Can you please stop talking about bombs?

 

I'm sorry to say this people but I’m going to when they flex their muscles and show the world (and especially the US) what they are made of. And when they launch a missile to hit near the US coast I’m going o fall of my seat laughing.

 

I'm not saying I want any casualties. I just want the American people to "wake up and smell the coffee".

I fell off my seat laughing when they stealth bombed Iraq's airports. And dug your glorious leader out of a hole in the ground.

[gwprod12]

Hm... Muslims kept Christian slaves until the fall of the Ottoman empire. Look it up.

 

I'm not going to be converted. I dislike all religions equally (maybe Christianity more, but whatever). If you wanna be a muslim, be a muslim. I couldnt care less what god you pray to, or what kind of foods you can eat. I live in a pluralistic society where religion is a personal thing not to be foisted on others (ideally).

 

And, if you cant parse my english, dont try. I didnt say "Muslims, go away", I said "Leave us out of your Muslimness". That goes for everyone else too. Leave "me" out of your Christianity, your Buddhism, your Islam, your Wicca. I'm not interested. If you like them, great. Draw your sense of self-worth from yourself and not how "accepted" your religion is.

 

It boils down to this. I cant stomach the idea of Islam with it's current followers taking control of the world. I wont accept religious fundementalism. Period.

[killbot1000]

Hm... Muslims kept Christian slaves until the fall of the Ottoman empire. Look it up.

 

I'm not going to be converted. I dislike all religions equally (maybe Christianity more, but whatever). If you wanna be a muslim, be a muslim. I couldnt care less what god you pray to, or what kind of foods you can eat. I live in a pluralistic society where religion is a personal thing not to be foisted on others (ideally).

 

And, if you cant parse my english, dont try. I didnt say "Muslims, go away", I said "Leave us out of your Muslimness". That goes for everyone else too. Leave "me" out of your Christianity, your Buddhism, your Islam, your Wicca. I'm not interested. If you like them, great. Draw your sense of self-worth from yourself and not how "accepted" your religion is.

 

It boils down to this. I cant stomach the idea of Islam with it's current followers taking control of the world. I wont accept religious fundementalism. Period.

 

 

I second that...

[Mebster]

Hm... Muslims kept Christian slaves until the fall of the Ottoman empire. Look it up.

 

I'm not going to be converted. I dislike all religions equally (maybe Christianity more, but whatever). If you wanna be a muslim, be a muslim. I couldnt care less what god you pray to, or what kind of foods you can eat. I live in a pluralistic society where religion is a personal thing not to be foisted on others (ideally).

 

And, if you cant parse my english, dont try. I didnt say "Muslims, go away", I said "Leave us out of your Muslimness". That goes for everyone else too. Leave "me" out of your Christianity, your Buddhism, your Islam, your Wicca. I'm not interested. If you like them, great. Draw your sense of self-worth from yourself and not how "accepted" your religion is.

 

It boils down to this. I cant stomach the idea of Islam with it's current followers taking control of the world. I wont accept religious fundementalism. Period.

 

I understand what you're saying but let me tell you I know too many people who have become Muslim from people on the streets, on the net, books, lectures that have preached about Islam. Too many. And most of them were from a Christian background. Don't know why.

 

I've said this before, I know a WHITE (English) guy who recently at the age of around 60 became Muslim. Now if I went and asked him... "would you rather Muslims did not approach you and your neighbours" I’m sure he would not say yes.

 

I'm sure you don't want Muslims coming up to you but there are many that will appreciate it eventually.

It's like those people who ask you to give money to charity. Most people try to avoid them even though you know they're doing a good job. But once in a while someone will stop because they understand this is a good cause.

 

"Hm... Muslims kept Christian slaves until the fall of the Ottoman empire. Look it up." - The Ottomans did a lot that isn't very Islamic so using them as a standard is like using the Christian crusaders to judge the current Christians. But one thing I do know is that in Islam (don't know about the Ottomans but like I said doesn’t matter) slaves were treated well. This is unlike the slavery of the Europeans and US where they shipped thousands of slaves to do their work. Many of whom died on route or after hard labour. The reason Muslims treated them well is because they know that Allah will finally grudge the "master". As to Allah the salve means just as much to him as does its master.

[gwprod12]

"The Ottomans did a lot of non-islamic things" yah yah... they were the face of Islam. Just like Jerry Falwell and Hitler are the face of Christian fundamentalism. The fact is, it may not be Islamic to do it, but Islamic culture until recently hasnt been emancipatory in the least. Please dont act like Islam is all niceness and respect.

 

And frankly... it's insulting and revolting when people try to spread their religion. It's always to "help people find the way". If I decide I want to learn about Islam or Jehova's Witness or whatever, I'll go looking for it, I dont need people banging on my door to "help me".

 

If you want people to respect your religion, you HAVE to respect their religion, or lack of one. And prosletizing is the opposite of respect.

[biped]

"The Ottomans did a lot of non-islamic things" yah yah... they were the face of Islam. Just like Jerry Falwell and Hitler are the face of Christian fundamentalism. The fact is, it may not be Islamic to do it, but Islamic culture until recently hasnt been emancipatory in the least. Please dont act like Islam is all niceness and respect.

 

don't forget about Tammy Fay Baker

 

 

all major religions behave like assimilation cults, its in their 'consitution', to preach. to convert. aka 'to help'...

 

i think its time agnostics and athiests organized, collected donations, and bought up arms !!! maybe we can even get tax breaks. liberating soulless peoples, kicking ass, and taking numbers. polarizing nations into civil wars, and oppressing forward thinking thought. wait a sec, thats too ironic.

[mortis]

being a christian, palestinian descent and having read read many of the above responses, I can see that Israel have convinced USA that the live of a Jew is worth about 10-100 lives of Arabs.

That seems very NAZI to me, and I am not willing to share a forum with neo nazies.

BYE

[moseschrist]

being a christian, palestinian descent and having read read many of the above responses, I can see that Israel have convinced USA that the live of a Jew is worth about 10-100 lives of Arabs.

That seems very NAZI to me, and I am not willing to share a forum with neo nazies.

BYE

 

it's not israel who convinced USA that, it's the palastinians...

sending a suicide bomber shows that you have no respect for life.

giving candy to ppl on the street after an israeli PM had died and after an attack on israeli citizens shows that

your ppl have no respect for life.

your belief that if you kill your self for the cause in order to "gain" 47 virgins in the after life shows that you have no respect for life.

 

just one more thing... those missles that are currently being shot from lebanon to israel are hitting not only jewish israelis but muslims and christian as well, as there are many arab residents on the north of israel, and i guess that their lifes are nothing more than "targeting" mistake for militants at south lebanon, where is the respect of your ppl for their lifes ?

[Swad]

mortis-

We're definitely not neo nazis. One person's life is just as important as the next.

 

Aceplayer and OryHara-

It's quite obvious that you guys could go on for days and days debating islam. However, 9/11 has little to do with the topic at hand (even though it's partially related, it's really not).

 

I've deleted both of your last posts to keep this thread clean, friendly, and on topic. I not a huge censorship fan either, but your posts had fallen into ad hominem attacks. Nothing against you guys, it's just obvious that this is a passionate topic for both of you.

 

To all-

I would really like for this thread to continue discussing the situation in the middle east in a respectful way. That means no name calling, no essentializing "your people, all jews, all muslims, etc," and no belittling. We can talk about strategy and rights, etc.

 

If we can have that kind of discussion, let's. If we can't, I'll have to close the thread.

[gwprod12]

It always comes down to "If you like Jews, you hate Palestinians" or "If you like Palestinians, you hate Jews". Broken Record.

 

What do the Palestinians want for themselves? A nation of their own? They (consistently) have gone out of their way to prevent themselves from being taken seriously. If they want Isreal to be destroyed and Jews pushed into the sea, well... that's not gonna happen. But if they'd DO the necessary things to live in peace, then they'd get more sympathy when Isreal refuses to.

 

Who exactly helps the Palestinian people? They've alienated just about everyone, it seems.

[johnniecarcinogen]

I think that there must be solid borders between the 2 determined by a third party and those borders are final with Jerusalem not a part of Israel or Palestine but rather an independent territory similar to the Vatican City - a sanctuary of sorts.

 

Vatican City has a christian government but since Jerusalem can not have a single religious faction it should be void of the rule by man and have the 'rule of God' as the supreme law. I am not sure how that would work without creating an oporitunity for people to exploit but it seems like a logical concept to me. Imagine the city of Jerusalem not a part of any country open to anyone without prejudice.

[gwprod12]

I absolutely agree... a city state governed by UN Mandate. Doesnt belong to anyone, but you're more than welcome to visit.

 

Or, we could just demolish the whole thing.

[Mebster]

Or, we could just demolish the whole thing.

That’s the brightest thing I’ve every heard. That clearly is the solution we've all been looking for. To destroy a city held sacred to the worlds three largest religious groups. Christians, Muslims and Jews.

"You should be a negotiator" Or maybe ask to work in the UN.

WORLD PEACE, HERE WE COME (all thanks to our friend gwprod12)

--------------------

Mash I have to apologise for everything, but OryHara is the stupidest dude I’ve ever encountered. Well at least his arguments are. He's made this topic about Islam with attacks on it. And as a Muslim so I can't sit back and rest while my faith is being abused in front of me. So I’ve dragged it on. Sorry.

 

I used unnecessary language I know. Which isn't good at all.. but he uses words like "you", "you bombed our country", "we bombed your country". I don't know where he thinks I’m from. Maybe he thinks I’m an Arab. I don't really care where I’m from but well I’m not an Arab. I'm British.

 

I think it was 0uch!p0tat0 who said it the best. Not to quote him exactly but it was something like "it's been 5 years since 9/11. Get over it!" I really can't add any more to that. It's perfect. I'm tired of hearing 9/11 this and 9/11 that, all the time when arguing about something.

 

OryHara has this idea that maybe "I personally" bombed America. When in actual fact I got bombed also. And I would argue with a lot more devastative effect (I know many will disagree and that’s fine). I'm from London and I remember when it got bombed on Jull 7 and again on July 21. I was like the rest of the Londoners, calling friends and loved ones to make sure they are safe. And then to later find out a close "Muslims" friends (take note), family member wasn't.

 

There were 4 different explosions on the 7th and 4 more on the 21st. Although the total fatalities were far less than the 9/11 incident that fact that the bombings happened on different days with only 14 days between them, put a sense of fear that it was going to happen again. And soon.

 

All Londoners, me included had to go through that. But one thing the makes me proud to be a Londoner (not British necessarily) is that we pulled through it and did not fall into the pit of anger and hostility the US went through and still is in. It was a years anniversary, 9 days ago since the July 7th bombing and most Londoners went about their normal business. Not constantly looking behind their back for the next guy that comes around the corner with a long beard. And for that reason I’m proud to live here. I just wish the US could only be as strong. They went through a traumatic time which no one should go through. But it's long gone now. If Londoners can leave it behind within a year then 5 years should certainly be enough time for the US to also forget.

 

I don't know if OryHara needs counselling (I’m serious here). Maybe he lost someone and hence the anger and unprovoked (not completely I agree) attacks on Islam and me, but he needs to move on. Support Israel if he wants to but to use statements like "Israel will always stand, and their enemies will be destroyed" are not helpful here. Neither are the "you", "your country", "your Islam".

 

 

I don't want this topic to be about Islam although it is related either. There's already a topic for that. But quit the Islam bashing because it's getting old now. 5 years old.

If i can respect other faiths and traditions then we should all be able to too as I’m no different to anyone else.

[bofors]

But quit the Islam bashing because it's getting old now. 5 years old.

 

But how old is Islam? Exactly when does it get old?

 

i'll flame on and as an atheist i would say that extremistic islam religion is in poleposition as the most retarded idea of the 21th century...

 

Of course, we should recognize that Islam is in a fact 7th century idea that essentially copied the monotheistic ideas of Judiasm and Christianity (which are even older, of course) and merely integrated them with ancient Arabic tradition.

[gwprod12]

Demolishing the holy land and selling pieces of it as souvenirs might not create world peace... but it couldnt hurt. If there's nothing to fight over, it's hard to justify a fight.

 

Anti-Jewish Arabic Rhetoric Now: "We must get rid of the Zionists, and reclaim our holy places for Islam!"

Anti-Jewish Arabic Rhetoric After: "We must get rid of the Zionists because um... Let's see. Jews Circumcise, Muslims Circumcise. Jews dont eat pork, Muslims dont eat pork. Why were we fighting again?"