Israel and Palestine

[Mebster]

Israel's withdrawal from Gaza and start withdrawal from parts of the West Bank.

But instead the Palestinians show some willingness to stop with they brutality action against the Israeli citizens, it get even worst.

Before the withdrawal from Gaza, they didn’t launch missiles rockets at Israeli towns.

They look at the Israelis as a cowards running for their lands not as a partner for peace.

 

The problem is not territory possession. They don’t want us here and that’s it.

Your offereing was too little too late. Actually around 40 years too late. Do you really expect them to give you a hug or a kick up the back side telling you to f'off faster?

 

And don't disillision yourself. You kill more of them then they could ever imagain killing of you. They know they don't have the means and so throw rockets the boarder which are so poorly made they'll either blow up in their own faces or at most damage a roof a little.

 

And understand that Israel is as much a terrorist as the Palestineans are. In fact it it's actiona would suggest it's infact a greater terrorist. Palistinians terroris Israel ever few weeks or months and normally on a small skale due to their ability. When Israel goes in it takes over the entire country and takes out who ever it wants destroying houses after houses after houses. And this in a country where you have extreme poverty.

 

And correct my if i'm wrong but wasn't you priminester charged with war crimes and was actually going to have to go through the whole process but then the US put pressue and it was dropped?

[yossicl]

Your offereing was too little too late. Actually around 40 years too late. Do you really expect them to give you a hug or a kick up the back side telling you to f'off faster?

 

And don't disillision yourself. You kill more of them then they could ever imagain killing of you. They know they don't have the means and so throw rockets the boarder which are so poorly made they'll either blow up in their own faces or at most damage a roof a little.

 

And understand that Israel is as much a terrorist as the Palestineans are. In fact it it's actiona would suggest it's infact a greater terrorist. Palistinians terroris Israel ever few weeks or months and normally on a small skale due to their ability. When Israel goes in it takes over the entire country and takes out who ever it wants destroying houses after houses after houses. And this in a country where you have extreme poverty.

In fact I didn’t believed them even one second but at least I expected them to stop terrorism and brutality action against civilians. This is the less they can do, isn’t it?

But in this case why should I have to give up to them?

Why I’m not allowed to kill their citizens as they are killing our citizens?

This is what calling hypocrisy.

And correct my if i'm wrong but wasn't you priminester charged with war crimes and was actually going to have to go through the whole process but then the US put pressue and it was dropped?

Who exactly charged him the Arab nations or the Palestinian leaders?

Israel have all the rights to defend her self don’t you think so?

[Mebster]

Why I’m not allowed to kill their citizens as they are killing our citizens?

You already do. That's the point.

 

When you wake up and see your own faults as well as their own (Israel has a tendency to think it's never wrong) only then might things start to change.

[yossicl]

You already do. That's the point.

 

When you wake up and see your own faults as well as their own (Israel has a tendency to think it's never wrong) only then might things start to change.

Suppose you right (it's only supposed) but you didn't answer my questions:

Why I’m not allowed to kill their citizens as they are killing our citizens?

Israel have all the rights to defend her self don’t you think so?

[oregano]

yes of course

 

alright--this is the point

the jews were persecuted for so long that the world felt in debt to them and gave them "the land of milk and honey"

but arabs and other people in the world still felt that they didnt deserve it (mostly muslims, probably the most anti-semetic race, although christians are responsible for the holocaust)

 

i really cant see the harm of israel from ur point of view, aceplayer

 

it seems israel and palestine should be able to coexist

and it seems lebanon should not bomb israel for any reason

and it seems iran should not want to "wipe israel off the face of the earth"

 

when israel just wants peace and everyone else just wants war, u have to question who is really good and who is bad

[gwprod12]

Arabs are semites too...

[oregano]

thats not what i meant

 

anti-semetic has been adapted to apply to just hatred of jews

[gwprod12]

Anti-semitism is an almost exclusively european innovation. It isnt rooted in Arab culture. And never has been.

 

The Anti-Zionist movement and philosophy is less about being Jewish, and more about Zionism, which was/is seen as a destruction of Islamic culture through conquest and occupation.

 

There's kind of a big difference. There are quite a number of Jewish Anti-Zionists, as a matter of fact.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that I dont believe Muslims tend to regard Jews as religiously inferior (religious antisemitism) or genetically inferior (racial antisemitism), because Arabs and Hebrews are more closely related genetically (like Koreans and Japanese) than Arabs are with African Blacks or Norwegian Whites. The Islamic world would probably be quite happy about a Jewish state. Just not where there is one now. (Thought of as traditionally Islamic territory).

[yossicl]

Anti-semitism is an almost exclusively european innovation. It isnt rooted in Arab culture. And never has been.

 

The Anti-Zionist movement and philosophy is less about being Jewish, and more about Zionism, which was/is seen as a destruction of Islamic culture through conquest and occupation.

 

There's kind of a big difference. There are quite a number of Jewish Anti-Zionists, as a matter of fact.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that I dont believe Muslims tend to regard Jews as religiously inferior (religious antisemitism) or genetically inferior (racial antisemitism), because Arabs and Hebrews are more closely related genetically (like Koreans and Japanese) than Arabs are with African Blacks or Norwegian Whites. The Islamic world would probably be quite happy about a Jewish state. Just not where there is one now. (Thought of as traditionally Islamic territory).

History of Arab anti-Semitism before 1948

 

Jews, along with Christians and Zoroastrians, typically had the legal status of dhimmi (a non-Muslim) in the lands conquered by Muslim Arabs.

 

Dhimmi were subjected to a number of restrictions, the application and severity of which varied with time and place: residency in segregated quarters, obligation to wear distinctive clothing, public subservience to Muslims, prohibitions against proselytizing, against marrying Muslim women, and limited access to the legal system. Dhimmis had to pay a special poll tax (the "jizya"), which exempted them from military service, and also from payment of the Zakat (Almsgiving) alms tax required of Muslims. In return, dhimmis were entitled to certain rights, tolerance, and protection. Jewish communities, like Christian ones, were typically constituted as semi-autonomous entities managed by their own laws and leadership, who carried the responsibility for the community towards the Muslim rulers.

 

Throughout the centuries, incidents of massacres and ethnic cleansing of Jews occurred in North Africa, especially in Morocco, Libya and Algeria where eventually Jews were forced to live in ghettos. Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in the Middle Ages in Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Yemen. At certain times in Yemen, Morocco and Baghdad, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death.

 

The situation where Jews both enjoyed cultural and economical prosperity at times, but were widely persecuted at other times, was summarized by G.E. Von Grunebaum:

 

It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizeable number of Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms.

 

You can easily read all about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs_and_antisemitism

And here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols..._Elders_of_Zion

[pseudoxh4]

History of Arab anti-Semitism before 1948

 

Jews, along with Christians and Zoroastrians, typically had the legal status of dhimmi (a non-Muslim) in the lands conquered by Muslim Arabs.

 

Dhimmi were subjected to a number of restrictions, the application and severity of which varied with time and place: residency in segregated quarters, obligation to wear distinctive clothing, public subservience to Muslims, prohibitions against proselytizing, against marrying Muslim women, and limited access to the legal system. Dhimmis had to pay a special poll tax (the "jizya"), which exempted them from military service, and also from payment of the Zakat (Almsgiving) alms tax required of Muslims. In return, dhimmis were entitled to certain rights, tolerance, and protection. Jewish communities, like Christian ones, were typically constituted as semi-autonomous entities managed by their own laws and leadership, who carried the responsibility for the community towards the Muslim rulers.

You're taking dhimmis totally out of context, dude.

First, the land conquered by muslims was, obviously, made muslim land!

Now, the trend at the time, in terms of conquering, was "follow our religion or die/exile/whatever."

Muslim land? "You can live here if you like, but you have to pay a fee.. and you can't become ruler. If you don't want to, leave."

Now tell me, how is that in any way anti-Semitic? It's a lot less racist/biased than other nations of the time, and it is certainly in no way geared towards Jewish people.

Also, I think your info is a bit off-- a wikipedia source with no cited references? Eh.

 

Throughout the centuries, incidents of massacres and ethnic cleansing of Jews occurred in North Africa, especially in Morocco, Libya and Algeria where eventually Jews were forced to live in ghettos. Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in the Middle Ages in Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Yemen. At certain times in Yemen, Morocco and Baghdad, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death.

Forced conversion is considered, among the majority of Muslim scholars, a prohibition. Thus, what you are stating is not a matter of "muslims against non-muslims" but rather, "nations against non-muslims". This doesn't puzzle in with Islam, which preaches peace towards non-Muslims who, in turn, wish to peacefully co-exist with you. The prophet clearly showed this example by forming ties with Jewish tribes.

 

Anyway, I just thought I'd make it clear that, in general, Arabs and Muslims are anti-Zionism, not anti-Semitism. I personally have nothing against Jews.

Also, wouldn't anti-Semitism by an Arab be a misnomer anyway? The definition of a semite also includes Arabs, so that would be a clear contradiction, wouldn't it?

[gwprod12]

lol. thats what I said.

[pseudoxh4]

lol. thats what I said.

LOL.. just noticed. I seem to have skipped your post when reading through this page.

[yossicl]

...

First, the land conquered by muslims was, obviously, made muslim land!

You said, “The land conquered by Muslims was, obviously, made Muslim land!”

In this case I (and also you in fact everybody) can say, “The land conquered by Jews was, obviously, made Jews land!”

Jews land? "You can live here if you like, but you have to pay a fee... and you can't become ruler. If you don't want to, leave." fair enough isn’t it???

Now, the trend at the time, in terms of conquering, was "follow our religion or die/exile/whatever."

Muslim land? "You can live here if you like, but you have to pay a fee.. and you can't become ruler. If you don't want to, leave."

Now tell me, how is that in any way anti-Semitic? It's a lot less racist/biased than other nations of the time, and it is certainly in no way geared towards Jewish people.

Also, I think your info is a bit off-- a wikipedia source with no cited references? Eh.

Forced conversion is considered, among the majority of Muslim scholars, a prohibition. Thus, what you are stating is not a matter of "muslims against non-muslims" but rather, "nations against non-muslims". This doesn't puzzle in with Islam, which preaches peace towards non-Muslims who, in turn, wish to peacefully co-exist with you. The prophet clearly showed this example by forming ties with Jewish tribes.

 

Anyway, I just thought I'd make it clear that, in general, Arabs and Muslims are anti-Zionism, not anti-Semitism. I personally have nothing against Jews.

Also, wouldn't anti-Semitism by an Arab be a misnomer anyway? The definition of a semite also includes Arabs, so that would be a clear contradiction, wouldn't it?

 

I already said before I have nothing against Islam and what Islam represents.

But I also said to AcePlayer “Nice words (from the Koran)... but the problem with those words is most of the Muslims in the world doesn’t believe them”.

Some of the Muslims religious leaders are interpreting the Koran in dangerous way and that’s was/is the problem. Muslims believer’s people listen to their religious leaders and not directly to the Koran.

 

You can't say Arabs and Muslims are anti-Zionism, not anti-Semitism because Arabs and some Muslims (just to clear myself not all of them only the stupid) was hate/kill/forced conversion and rape the Jews wife ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar ) before the word/concept/idea “Zionism” was ever invented.

Anyway, the fact that Arab Muslims and Jews are cousin doesn’t prevent the Arabs and some Muslims being anti-Semitism…

[gwprod12]

You're confusing individual action with public policy. Apartheid was a racist public policy. Anti-black sentiment in the United States currently, is individual action.

 

To say that Islam or Islamic Nations or Muslims hate jews is a gross exaggeration. And is disproven by history. Islam is ambivalent or positive towards jews. Islamic Nations, for the most part, have an Anti-Israel stance, which is Anti-Zionism, not Antisemitism. Muslims, for the most part have an Anti-Zionist stance, which because people are people, has edged into Antisemitism. The root cause for the Middle-eastern Muslim to "dislike" jews is not that they are jews, but because of the nation of Israel.

 

That being said, if Muslims can make a piece of land Muslim Territory, then Jews can make a piece of land Jewish territory. Conquest cannot be debated. It simply is. Islam conquered persia and northern africa. Zionism conquered the Israeli territories. So, back to the point I've been making over and over again: Israel exists for the only good reason there is. It has extablished it's own existence, and it can maintain it. Should the Islamic nations surrounding it conquer Israel, then Israel will cease to exist, for the only good reason there is. It was caused not exist, and it cannot stop it's non-existence, nor can it reestablish it's existence. It is not a moral argument, whether Israel has the right. Of course it does. It has every right to defend it's borders, just as it's neighbours have every right to push it into the sea. In terms of politics and warfare, might, does in fact, make right. (And Israel, currently, has the might. And the right.)

 

P.S. Israel might not have the might and the right forever, so it may want to start looking towards that day.

[yossicl]

You're confusing individual action with public policy. Apartheid was a racist public policy. Anti-black sentiment in the United States currently, is individual action.

 

To say that Islam or Islamic Nations or Muslims hate jews is a gross exaggeration. And is disproven by history. Islam is ambivalent or positive towards jews. Islamic Nations, for the most part, have an Anti-Israel stance, which is Anti-Zionism, not Antisemitism. Muslims, for the most part have an Anti-Zionist stance, which because people are people, has edged into Antisemitism. The root cause for the Middle-eastern Muslim to "dislike" jews is not that they are jews, but because of the nation of Israel.

 

That being said, if Muslims can make a piece of land Muslim Territory, then Jews can make a piece of land Jewish territory. Conquest cannot be debated. It simply is. Islam conquered persia and northern africa. Zionism conquered the Israeli territories. So, back to the point I've been making over and over again: Israel exists for the only good reason there is. It has extablished it's own existence, and it can maintain it. Should the Islamic nations surrounding it conquer Israel, then Israel will cease to exist, for the only good reason there is. It was caused not exist, and it cannot stop it's non-existence, nor can it reestablish it's existence. It is not a moral argument, whether Israel has the right. Of course it does. It has every right to defend it's borders, just as it's neighbours have every right to push it into the sea. In terms of politics and warfare, might, does in fact, make right. (And Israel, currently, has the might. And the right.)

Almost all Arab nations was operate against Israel so you can’t say individual action because it’s not.

 

I also didn’t say “Islam or Islamic Nations or Muslims hate Jews” go back and read what I wrote. If you are lazy I will post it again:

“Arabs and some Muslims (just to clear myself not all of them only the stupid) was hate/kill/forced conversion and rape the Jews wife before the word/concept/idea “Zionism” was ever invented.”

 

The fact that our Arabs neighbor hates us it’s not because of Israel state existence!!!

Maybe the word Anti-Semite (for the Arabs) is no exactly the word but also Anti-Zionism It’s not truth (maybe the word Anti-Jews is more fit).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots

 

In the summer of 1929, a long-running dispute between Muslims and Jews over access to the Western Wall in Jerusalem escalated, and erupted into a series of violent demonstrations and riots in late August. During the week of riots, 133 Jews were killed and 339 wounded (mostly by Arabs); 116 Arabs were killed and 232 wounded (mostly by British-commanded police and soldiers).

 

In Hebron (1929), Arab mobs killed 65-68 Jews, wounded 58, and raped women. The lone British policeman in the town, Raymond Cafferata, was overwhelmed, and the reinforcements he called for did not arrive for 5 hours (leading to bitter recriminations). Many Jews survived by hiding in their Arab neighbors' houses while others survived by taking refuge in the British police station at Beit Ramon on the outskirts of the city. The survivors of the massacre were forced to flee the community, and their property was occupied by Arabs until after the Six Day War of 1967.

 

All that was happened before Israel state was ever exist!!!

P.S. Israel might not have the might and the right forever, so it may want to start looking towards that day.

We are praying every day and trying harder to bring the peace between our Arab neighbor and us and we wish the day would come…

 

Edit: Most of the Israelis Arabs neighbors already except Israel existence because they understood that they cannot wipe Israel to the sea.

Currently the problem is the Palestinian and Syria, which they are not except the Israel existence but I believe that some day they will realize that they cannot wipe Israel to the sea.

[oregano]

We are praying every day and trying harder to bring the peace between our Arab neighbor and us and we wish the day would come…

 

well, there is a prayer

it goes along the lines of:

 

come to us, eliyahou, the prophet, son of david, in the days of the messaiah, and bring with us peace forever

 

it is a prayer for ultimate and everlasting peace on earth

peace between israel and its enemies

peace for everyone

 

that is what israel wants, and that should be what everyone wants, but there are some extremists, many muslims, that will not rest until israel is destroyed

i think that is unfortunate, and hopefully they will change their minds or when they die, their children will want peace instead of war

[bigboss]

I'm from India and my country is attacked by "freedom fighters" every single day. Since 1991, insurgency just in the state of Kashmir alone has resulted in 40,000 deaths. India is surrounded by three nations which have a hostile policy towards her, China, Pakistan and Bangladesh (a nation which India helped liberate from Pakistan's genocidal rule). Pakistan and Bangladesh both harbour and protect terrorist leaders who want to see "the destruction of India by Islamic jihad and the islamisation of its people". To me, that is a hostile viewpoint yet, we in India do not retaliate by indiscriminately bombing populated urban centers in Pakistan or Bangladesh. Terrorists plant bombs in our urban centers so India is very much a victim of terrorism as is Israel. As such I feel that I should voice my differences of opinion with regards to the Israel-Palestinian conflict.

 

As an outside observer, I feel that in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, both sides are to blame. The Israelis are sometimes overzealous in their campaigns against opposing forces. Israel fails to distinguish between terrorist, civilian or even U.N. peacekeeper in my opinion. While initially a supporter of Israel, I now no longer possess that same support for Israel simply because of their poor conduct. They are no better than the Palestinians since they like the Palestinians bomb civilian areas with cluster bombs under the premise of attacking militants when most of the casualties or innocent civilians. When one Palestinian suicide bomber blows himself up, Israel launches a helicopter gunship strike. To me that is not one group interested in peace. That is one force retaliating with the same brutality and barbarism as those whom it seeks to destroy. It doesnt matter whether you are a terrorist or a soldier, you are still a killer. One is able to do it with a tank or gunship while the other has to do it with TNT strapped to his chest.

 

During their campaign in Lebanon, they killed over 1,100 Lebanese civilians ("by mistake" I presume) and perhaps 100 or so militants. Even if we take the Israeli estimate which is 440+, that is almost 1 Hezbollah militant to three Lebanese civilians many of which were children. In addition, they bombed a U.N. peacekeeper post even after repeated radio attempts by the peacekeepers to Israeli forces that their shells were in dangerous proximity to the U.N. post. They ignored these radio attempts and killed the peackeepers anyways. They attacked a moderate and politically neutral nation and in the end have caused more $3 Billion USD worth of damage in Lebanon alone. They even destroyed power generating and water pumping stations depriving thousands of Lebanese of basic electricity or water, a human rights violation into itself. In one particular bombing, they attacked the Jiyeh power station which resulted in the plant's storage tanks releasing 20,000 to 30,000 tonnes of oil into the Mediterranean, a spill comparable to the Exxon Valdez tanker accident. Who suffered mainly in these acts? Was it the Hezbollah militants who even today are quite protected? No, it was the innocent civilians of Lebanon who were victims of these dastardly attacks. Why did Israel do all this? It surely wasnt to rescue the 2 soldiers who were captured by Hezbollah (who were never rescued), it was to teach Lebanon the price of defiance. As long as Israel is allowed to operate in the region with impunity, it is as much a threat to regional stability as the Hamas terrorists. You can even see more proof of Israel's "commitment to peace" when it ratified the ceasefire but was still conducting airstrikes just five minutes before it was officially in effect. Hell, even after the ceasefire was signed and Israel claimed it had withdrawn its forces, the IDF was still operating in several cross border villages.

 

The Palestinians are equally to blame as they elected a government (Hamas) which was a terrorist organization. The Palestinian government simply doesn't get the message that violence is not the solution to the problem. Instead of attempting to elevate the status of their own people, they focus all their energies on the destruction of Israel. Even most of the aid commitments originally promised to the Palestinian government have been denied because of their status as a terrorist organization. Hamas doesn't want to sit down at the table and make peace with Israel, they want to see it destroyed. I beleive that someone here was arguing that Israel receives billions of dollars of US aid every year, can you find one single fact to back that up? To counter, what about the USD $929 million were given by the international community to the PNA in 2001, $891 million in 2003 and $1.1 billion in 2005? That amounts to $2.92 Billion USD which forms more than half the budget of the PNA. Yet, with all this money, what has the PNA done to elevate its own people? Has it made built any infrastructure? has it given its people jobs? has it even made a single ounce of progress? In my opinion, No. Instead of attempting to get more aid, they have managed to have it cut off. Why? Because of their extremist policies. As long as organizations like Hamas dictate policy, Palestine will always be in trouble. The moral of the story, each country gets the government it elects - that is the wonder of democracy. Sadly in today's world, might dictates who is right and in this case, Israel and the U.S. have that might. If Palestine wants the recognition and respect of the international community, then it should earn that recognition, it must also become a powerful force with a strong military and economy to have any hope of challenging Israel. Then, a balance might exist in the region and the potential for a real diplomatic solution will exist.

[killbot1000]

well, there is a prayer

it goes along the lines of:

 

come to us, eliyahou, the prophet, son of david, in the days of the messaiah, and bring with us peace forever

 

it is a prayer for ultimate and everlasting peace on earth

peace between israel and its enemies

peace for everyone

 

that is what israel wants, and that should be what everyone wants, but there are some extremists, many muslims, that will not rest until israel is destroyed

i think that is unfortunate, and hopefully they will change their minds or when they die, their children will want peace instead of war

 

 

Prayers never solved anything...do something to cause world peace instead of praying for it out of a feeling of lack of control...

[oregano]

i know, obviously i dont think god will come out of the heavens and eliminate violence forever

 

its really a message to everyone else that we just want peace, and if we try, we can have it

 

u have to keep ur head forward and nvr look back, and eventually we will have a perfect world (unless we destroy it in the mean time)

 

just look how much more civilized we are now than when we were cave men? we have law and order (and a t.v. show by the same name), and art, music, literature....we really have the potential of being great! we can work towards world peace, if we just stop killing

 

jeez, i sound like a hippy

[Mebster]

Since 1991, insurgency just in the state of Kashmir alone has resulted in 40,000 deaths

That statement goes both ways. So lets drop it now.

 

India is surrounded by three nations which have a hostile policy towards her, China, Pakistan and Bangladesh

Ok, Pakistan I get but Bangladesh and China?

 

Pakistan and Bangladesh both harbour and protect terrorist leaders who want to see "the destruction of India by Islamic jihad and the islamisation of its people".

I doubt anyone really cares that much about India to want it’s destruction. I’m just Islamic jihadists have more important countries to concentrate on.

 

Although I will say this, the only reason Islam exists in the Indian subcontinent is because the Hindu principles of tolerance allowed them to enter. Muslims came in as invaders, they plundered and killed and forced the conversion of Hindu's to Islam under threat of death.

If muslims came in as invadors then given the emense power muslims had at that time why did they not simply wipe out all the hundus or convert them all? Why leave the vast majority of the country as hindus who are in power? It makes no sence. Why? Because Muslims did not go to places as invadors in general. It's not the Islamic way and it doesn't need to be. Millions of people are becoming Muslim all over the world and not any of them has a sward held to their neck. I'm not saying Musims have not commeted crimes. But that's muslims and not Islam.

(it's interesting how you removed this statement)

 

Ofcourse, India has also committed some wrongs including denying the people of Kashmir their democratic right

If you think that is it then you’re sleeping. How about the complete ignoring of the Muslims that were killed and massacred Gujarat Massacre a few years back. Where a woman's unborn child was pulled right out of her stomach simply because she was a Muslim. The main culprit behind this was interviewed by the BBC. A man who seemed to hold a high position of some sort in India. Was he apologetic for these brutal massacres? Not the slightest. That is also your India.

 

Human Rights Watch urged the federal government to take over cases of large-scale massacres where the state government has sabotaged investigations. On June 27, a Gujarat state court acquitted twenty-one people accused of burning alive twelve Muslims in a bakery in Vadodara. Thirty-five of the seventy-three witnesses reportedly retracted in court the statements they had given to the police identifying the attackers.

 

"The government's record on the massacres is appalling," said Smita Narula, senior researcher for Human Rights Watch and author of the report. "Sixteen months after the beginning of the violence, not a single person has been convicted."

 

More than one hundred Muslims have been charged under India's much-criticized Prevention of Terrorism Act (POTA) for their alleged involvement in the train massacre in Godhra. No Hindus have been charged under POTA in connection with the violence against Muslims, which the government continues to dismiss as spontaneous and unorganized.

 

Hundreds of women and girls were brutally raped, mutilated, and burnt to death in Gujarat. The police have refused to pursue these cases.

 

In numerous instances, and in an effort to cover up their own participation in the violence, the police have instituted false cases against men and women injured in police shootings.

 

Testimony from the report Compounding Injustice: The Government's Failure to Redress Massacres in Gujarat

Khalid Noor Mohammed Sheikh lost nine family members in the February 2002 massacre in Naroda Patia, Ahmedabad, including his pregnant thirty-year-old daughter Kauser Bano. Her belly was cut open and the fetus was pulled out and hacked to pieces before she was killed:

 

I took [my daughter] Kauser to the hospital for delivery the day before the attack. She was ready to deliver. But the doctor said there was time and to come back in the morning. But there was no morning after. By then it was all over. And the tragedy is that the people who ripped my daughter's child out of her body and killed her are walking about freely. Why does it have to be this way?… Please make every effort that the criminals get punished. Even if they don't get punished a lot, they should at least get punished a little…. They keep going on about Muslim terrorists, but who are the terrorists? Those who torture Muslims so much should be punished a bit. In a family of nine, I am the only survivor. Whom should I live for now?

 

R. Bibi's thirty-six-year-old son was killed by the police in Naroda Patia:

 

A lot happened that day. The crowds came. Everything was destroyed. We didn't know what was going on, that something was going to happen. We were just doing our work. Suddenly there was an attack. They were raping women. Then they were killing them, burning them and cutting them up into pieces. The police killed my son. They shot him…. The government tells us to bring proof when we go to ask for [compensation]…. My life was taken away when they shot my son. Everything has been taken away and now they want evidence, where will I get the body from? I wasn't even able to see his body…. They stole everything, they burnt everything, they killed people, and [Rs. 1,250 (U.S.$27)] is all we got. Now my daughters go and do housework in other people's homes. They wash dishes, they sweep and clean…. We find some way to fill our stomachs. Somehow we have to survive…. It's too much. Even now we have no relief.

 

Ni{censored}h Acharya is a volunteer at the Akshardham cultural complex in Gandhinagar and was an eyewitness to the September 2002 massacre of Hindus there:

 

They threw something inside, a grenade, into the bookstore. By God's grace it did not explode in the bookstore. One middle-aged lady tried to come out. They fired on her, and she was immediately killed. They started moving ahead and went to the podium. I had no weapons and no one in the campus had weapons [so as] to preserve the sanctity of the place…. They threw a grenade inside [an exhibition hall]. It exploded and they started firing on the public. Many people were injured. There were many casualties…. People were killed there also. One volunteer opened all the doors to let the people out. So they threw a grenade at the entrance part and did firing also. Maximum casualties were there…. The room was full of blood.

I'm just trying to show here that India is no way as rosy and tolerant as you paint it to be. It has it's equal share of barbarianism too. And there's a lot of it. In a country where the Muslims are the extreme minority and the state more or less sits back while they are being massacred is not a country which i would be extremely proud of for it's human rights part. This is not to say that Pakistan, Bangladesh or China has much better human rights but no one here so far has attempted to paint a rosy picture of these countries. Your depiction of India was. And it's so far from being rosy that you wouldn't believe.

 

The US gives billions $$$ to Israel. This is a known fact. I don't know why it ever started but it did way way back and now the Jewish and pro Israeli lobbies pressure the US to keep giving billions of US tax payers money to a so called prosperous state. This BBC news report shows how Israel asked for a boost injection of $10bn to help get it out of a "economic crisis". Notice at the end of the report it says

"Israel already receives $3bn a year from the US, mostly as military aid."

[gwprod12]

No more money to Irael or the Palestinians until they can start behaving =]

 

Thus I have ruled!

[oregano]

umm, that was very immature

they are both behaving, they just have different interests,

that doesnt mean we should cut off funds to israel

hamas, however, which has basically a sole goal of destroying israel, does not deserve american funds, its that simple

 

israel wants peace, it gets money!

palestine/ hamas wants war, it gets nothing!

 

thats how simple it is, and that is what should happen

 

"Israel already receives $3bn a year from the US, mostly as military aid."

 

i doubt most of the money israel is for military

i mean, israel obviously needs to protect itself from the dozen or so arab nations surrounding it, but besides that im sure the money goes to more important things, such as reimbursing displaced palestinians

 

AcePlayer-you've ventured far off topic

violence between muslims and hindus in in india has little to do with israel/palestine violence

 

the horrors towards muslims in india u described were obviously unjust, but u give a one sided story:

58 Hindus, including 15 women and 20 children were burnt alive in a train compartment at Godhra Station.

that happened just before the Gujarat massacre u talked about

 

but neither of those horrors had to do with jews, so this is irrelevant to the thread

[gwprod12]

I couldnt help but laugh out loud. Hamas, since it's election to power in the palestinian territory has been completely good. Israel... not so much.

 

Israel has an enormous defense budget. Though, quite honestly, the United States is one of Israel's biggest customers. Israeli defense firms produce at least one vital component on every US military aircraft made in the past 30 years.

[oregano]

so far, yes, they have been good

but their history is far different

 

the united states dwarfs israels budget, by the way

 

and just because that is a large part of israels economy doesnt mean that israel wants to wipe iran, lebanon, syria, etc., off the map

[Another_]

Salam Everyones.I can say only one....

 

Terrorist can't be a muslim and

Muslim can't be a terrorist

 

NEVER

 

Sorry for my English...