Israel and Palestine

[killbot1000]

''I had motives for not wanting the world to have a meaning; consequently assumed that it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption. The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in metaphysics, he is also concerned to prove that there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do, or why his friends should not seize political power and govern in the way that they find most advantegous to themselves... For myself, the philosophy of meaningless was essentially an instrument of liberation, sexual and political.'' -- Aldous Huxley in Ends and Means, 1937.

 

 

and?

[consolation]

My apologies, when I meant western, I meant western Europe before the introduction of Christianity to a significant degree. But, societies and towns existed with nature warship, look at the Greek and Roman gods, pretty much all about nature. I realize the entire middle east is not a desert, however, I'm pretty sure it wasn't incredibly lush, surely more lush than it is now, and surely enough to sustain life, but I don't believe it was anything incredible.

 

And you bring up an interesting point about cities and societies = no need for nature worship. Couldn't one argue that in todays society with technology and science, one doesnt really need the bible or the qu'ran anymore? Isn't it a little outdated?

 

 

Of the 12 major greek gods only Poseidon and Artemis are directly connected to nature. The others tend to be orientated around home/hearth and professions/culture:

courtesy of wiki...

 

Zeus is the highest ranking and most powerful god, the ruler of Mount Olympus, god of the sky.

Poseidon, together with Hades is one of the two next most senior gods, god of the sea, rivers and springs, floods and earthquakes.

Hera is the wife of Zeus, the goddess Queen of the heavens and stars, of marriage and fidelity.

Demeter is the goddess of the fertile earth and agriculture. Her bounty sustains mankind.

Artemis is the goddess of the hunt, animals, wilderness and the protector of young girls.

Apollo is the god of prophesy, light, music, healing, disease and medicine and archery.

Athena is the goddess of wisdom, the crafts (especially weaving, pottery and carpentry), inner beauty, education and defensive war.

Hephaestus is the god of fire, workmanship, artisans and weaponry and the craftsman of the gods.

Ares is the god of offensive war and slaughter.

Aphrodite is the goddess of love, sexuality, outer beauty and attraction.

Hermes is the god of guidance, travelers, commerce, inventions, oratory, shepherds, consolation and reunions, athletics, patron of thieves, and messenger of the Gods.

Hestia is the goddess of the home, family and the hearth.

Dionysus is the youngest of the Olympians, and the god of wine, vegetation, fertility and the theater. He alternates with Hestia in ancient lists of the twelve Olympians. Some scholars do not count Dionysus among the Olympian gods because though he is the son of Zeus, his mother was a mortal.

 

AFAIK the area used to be much more lush before deforestation, I seem to remember ancient assyrian murals often depict hunting scenes of tigers and antelope in forested areas.

[yossicl]

and?

And this is how you (atheisms) look like…

You will say anything backward but not the truth because you don't have one.

You believe that existent of everything was creates just like that and nobody was create it.

The laws of nature, the existence of matter and energy, the existence of the sun the moon and the stars, a world that spins around in the morning and evening and so on, all of these and more are all evidence that God created them, since they couldn't just pop into being out of nothing or by chance. Dedicate one minute of your thought to:

 

What would happen if….

 

If space didn't exist, if time didn't exist,

If the laws of nature didn't exist,

If the laws of nature weren't persistent,

If the sun didn't exist,

If a solid ground didn't exist,

If the soil wasn't fertile,

If the earth wasn't round,

If the world didn't spin every 24 hours,

If there was no atmosphere,

If there was no ozone,

If there was no oxygen

If oxygen wasn't in a certain amount,

If there was no gravity,

If water didn't exist, if water didn't circulate, if water didn't evaporate,

If water filled air didn't form rain drops,

If the temperature wasn't livable, If there no plants and no animals,

 

You wouldn't have dedicated one minute of your thought because…

We wouldn't be here!

 

We live in a literally wonderful and incredibly orderly universe. Just as we wouldn't believe that a bunch of stones that fell out of the sky formed a pyramid, we can use our mind to understand that our incredibly orderly universe that consists of everything we need to survive was not formed on its own!

 

It is obvious to all that there is a creator to the universe and all life!

 

God implanted in all humans a sense, an intuition, to become aware of his existence. The first thing we can understand from creation is that it has a creator. Anyone who thinks otherwise will have to prove his words.

 

We all believe that our parents are truly ours, even though we don't remember our moment of birth or have a DNA test to see that they are really our parents.

 

The reason we believe that our parents are truly our parents is because we have no reason to think otherwise.

We look around and see an orderly world and everything in it implies of a genius creator. What reason do we have for believing that He didn't create it and that it all happened by chance?

 

Other ways people use to explain the creation of the universe and life without God, are pathetic. These are all ridicules explanations, theories that are based on coincidence, more coincidence and more coincidences that are continuations of previous coincidences.

 

Some people have told me that they doubt the existence of GOD, but no one has ever said he had doubt that his father is his real father.

 

Even if I were to come up with ways and explanations why our parents are not really our parents, chances are we would continue to believe that they are our parents, because we have nothing that has proved it otherwise.

 

Our father would stay our father, until proven otherwise! Even when someone might try to tell us that the world and all life were created by chance, we will not take it seriously and continue to believe in the wisdom we have come to learn from creation.

 

The world and life itself prove that GOD does exist! What could someone who didn't believe possibly say to his creator once he comes face to face with him?

Could he say that the world wasn't complex enough for him to recognize its creator? Could he say that his body wasn't planned enough for him to see the truth? Or possibly that his human soul, his conscience, his logic didn't teach him of his purpose?

[killbot1000]

And this is how you (atheisms) look like…

You will say anything backward but not the truth because you don't have one.

You believe that existent of everything was creates just like that and nobody was create it.

The laws of nature, the existence of matter and energy, the existence of the sun the moon and the stars, a world that spins around in the morning and evening and so on, all of these and more are all evidence that God created them, since they couldn't just pop into being out of nothing or by chance. Dedicate one minute of your thought to:

 

What would happen if….

 

If space didn't exist, if time didn't exist,

If the laws of nature didn't exist,

If the laws of nature weren't persistent,

If the sun didn't exist,

If a solid ground didn't exist,

If the soil wasn't fertile,

If the earth wasn't round,

If the world didn't spin every 24 hours,

If there was no atmosphere,

If there was no ozone,

If there was no oxygen

If oxygen wasn't in a certain amount,

If there was no gravity,

If water didn't exist, if water didn't circulate, if water didn't evaporate,

If water filled air didn't form rain drops,

If the temperature wasn't livable, If there no plants and no animals,

 

You wouldn't have dedicated one minute of your thought because…

We wouldn't be here!

 

We live in a literally wonderful and incredibly orderly universe. Just as we wouldn't believe that a bunch of stones that fell out of the sky formed a pyramid, we can use our mind to understand that our incredibly orderly universe that consists of everything we need to survive was not formed on its own!

 

It is obvious to all that there is a creator to the universe and all life!

 

God implanted in all humans a sense, an intuition, to become aware of his existence. The first thing we can understand from creation is that it has a creator. Anyone who thinks otherwise will have to prove his words.

 

We all believe that our parents are truly ours, even though we don't remember our moment of birth or have a DNA test to see that they are really our parents.

 

The reason we believe that our parents are truly our parents is because we have no reason to think otherwise.

We look around and see an orderly world and everything in it implies of a genius creator. What reason do we have for believing that He didn't create it and that it all happened by chance?

 

Other ways people use to explain the creation of the universe and life without God, are pathetic. These are all ridicules explanations, theories that are based on coincidence, more coincidence and more coincidences that are continuations of previous coincidences.

 

Some people have told me that they doubt the existence of GOD, but no one has ever said he had doubt that his father is his real father.

 

Even if I were to come up with ways and explanations why our parents are not really our parents, chances are we would continue to believe that they are our parents, because we have nothing that has proved it otherwise.

 

Our father would stay our father, until proven otherwise! Even when someone might try to tell us that the world and all life were created by chance, we will not take it seriously and continue to believe in the wisdom we have come to learn from creation.

 

The world and life itself prove that GOD does exist! What could someone who didn't believe possibly say to his creator once he comes face to face with him?

Could he say that the world wasn't complex enough for him to recognize its creator? Could he say that his body wasn't planned enough for him to see the truth? Or possibly that his human soul, his conscience, his logic didn't teach him of his purpose?

 

First of all, don't tell me what I think. When it comes to the universe, and creation and all that bull {censored}, I very much try to take the position "I don't know the answer, and I'm pretty sure that I'm never going to find out". I try not to assume anything.

 

Theists assume everything, the whole idea is riddled with contradictions, ignorance, and assumptions.

 

Many theists would use the Causal argument to explain god's existance.

 

1. Everything has a cause.

2. Nothing causes itself.

3. [so} Everything is caused by something else.

4. If everything is caused by something else, then either (a) there is an infinite series of causes or ( there is a first cause.

5. There isn’t an infinite series of causes.

6. [so] there is a first cause.

7. [so] God exists.

 

There are many problems with this argument however. The first and most glaring problem is that lines 1 and 6 contradict each other (Everything has a cause & There is a first cause). Now if everything has a cause and theres a first cause, that would mean that the first cause doesn't have cause which means that the lines contradict.

 

The world and the universe are only orderly to us because we're suited to it, if the earth had turned out differently (different temperatures and chemical makeup, but still able to support life) than we wouldn't be humans, we would be something else suited to that world, and we would be shouting at the top of our lungs (or gills, whichever the case may be) at how orderly and perfect our universe is. Don't you understand, we wouldn't be humans, we would be something else, suited to a different environment. The simple fact that everything works so well, totally points to evolution as a real scientific theory.

 

Speaking of which, that's another word theists have a hard time grasping most of the time. A theory is not a hypothesis, it is a series of FACTS that when put together form a theory. A hypothesis is just an educated guess. Theories have experimentation and evidence to back them up.

 

God is an assumption, and assumptions are dangerous if they are not carefully analyzed, blind faith and devotion is dangerous too.

 

Your argument about the parents/god thing pretty much shatters due to these reasons.

 

You're right, I don't have any reason to doubt that my parents are really my parents, whether I remember my early days or not, day in and day out, I saw them every morning and they fed me and clothed me, so by simple logic of putting the pieces together I can see that they are my parents (whether I am related to them or not). God is different though, nobody sees god, and if they say they do, they are crazy... There is plenty of evidence to suggest that "his" word in the bible is false, there are many fallacies in the bible, to many to count, and you're saying this word is perfect? This is where ignorance comes in, because people choose to believe it, even when rational fact has proven otherwise, it kind of makes me sick.

 

You say I don't tell the truth, you say i tell lies? No, I'm telling the only truth I know, facts and logic. You're trying to pose faith as fact, which its not. If you were true to your religion at all, you wouldn't need any evidence to validate it, you wouldn't need to defend yourself against what I say. But you do, further proving to me, and to anybody with half a brain that this idea is outdated and unneeded and to be quite frank, dangerous in this kind of world...seriously think about it.

 

And finally, I'm not saying that the world is meaningless, you can find meaning in anything, you just have to put yourself in a different frame of mind. All I'm saying is that I don't know the meaning, and that's ok...

Edited January 25, 2007 by killbot1000

[killbot1000]

Of the 12 major greek gods only Poseidon and Artemis are directly connected to nature. The others tend to be orientated around home/hearth and professions/culture:

courtesy of wiki...

 

Zeus is the highest ranking and most powerful god, the ruler of Mount Olympus, god of the sky.

Poseidon, together with Hades is one of the two next most senior gods, god of the sea, rivers and springs, floods and earthquakes.

Hera is the wife of Zeus, the goddess Queen of the heavens and stars, of marriage and fidelity.

Demeter is the goddess of the fertile earth and agriculture. Her bounty sustains mankind.

Artemis is the goddess of the hunt, animals, wilderness and the protector of young girls.

Apollo is the god of prophesy, light, music, healing, disease and medicine and archery.

Athena is the goddess of wisdom, the crafts (especially weaving, pottery and carpentry), inner beauty, education and defensive war.

Hephaestus is the god of fire, workmanship, artisans and weaponry and the craftsman of the gods.

Ares is the god of offensive war and slaughter.

Aphrodite is the goddess of love, sexuality, outer beauty and attraction.

Hermes is the god of guidance, travelers, commerce, inventions, oratory, shepherds, consolation and reunions, athletics, patron of thieves, and messenger of the Gods.

Hestia is the goddess of the home, family and the hearth.

Dionysus is the youngest of the Olympians, and the god of wine, vegetation, fertility and the theater. He alternates with Hestia in ancient lists of the twelve Olympians. Some scholars do not count Dionysus among the Olympian gods because though he is the son of Zeus, his mother was a mortal.

 

AFAIK the area used to be much more lush before deforestation, I seem to remember ancient assyrian murals often depict hunting scenes of tigers and antelope in forested areas.

 

But you see, all of this IS nature. The sea, fertility, the sky, the moon, war, slaughter, home, wine, vegetation, fertile earth. Its all nature, its as natural as you can get...

 

Christianity in comparison spouts off about Jesus and God all day and pretty much leaves the nature equivalent out of it. Even when nature is used, its a back door to god. For example, Noah's Ark. The earth was flooded BECAUSE the world was sinful or whatever. In that case, instead of being about nature it was about god.

 

There will be exceptions to any rule. All I'm saying is that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam do nothing new, all of the themes in these religions are common mythological themes that have existed in the middle east for thousands of years. The whole good/evil, God/Devil, Heaven/Hell theme come from Zorroastrianism, a religion that had a much greater emphasis on good vs evil than Judaism did at the time. It is just a common mythological theme, that's all I'm trying to say.

[yossicl]

First of all, don't tell me what I think. When it comes to the universe, and creation and all that bull {censored}, I very much try to take the position "I don't know the answer, and I'm pretty sure that I'm never going to find out". I try not to assume anything.

 

Theists assume everything, the whole idea is riddled with contradictions, ignorance, and assumptions.

 

Many theists would use the Causal argument to explain god's existance.

 

1. Everything has a cause.

2. Nothing causes itself.

3. [so} Everything is caused by something else.

4. If everything is caused by something else, then either (a) there is an infinite series of causes or ( there is a first cause.

5. There isn’t an infinite series of causes.

6. [so] there is a first cause.

7. [so] God exists.

 

There are many problems with this argument however. The first and most glaring problem is that lines 1 and 6 contradict each other (Everything has a cause & There is a first cause). Now if everything has a cause and theres a first cause, that would mean that the first cause doesn't have cause which means that the lines contradict.

 

The world and the universe are only orderly to us because we're suited to it, if the earth had turned out differently (different temperatures and chemical makeup, but still able to support life) than we wouldn't be humans, we would be something else suited to that world, and we would be shouting at the top of our lungs (or gills, whichever the case may be) at how orderly and perfect our universe is. Don't you understand, we wouldn't be humans, we would be something else, suited to a different environment. The simple fact that everything works so well, totally points to evolution as a real scientific theory.

 

Speaking of which, that's another word theists have a hard time grasping most of the time. A theory is not a hypothesis, it is a series of FACTS that when put together form a theory. A hypothesis is just an educated guess. Theories have experimentation and evidence to back them up.

 

God is an assumption, and assumptions are dangerous if they are not carefully analyzed, blind faith and devotion is dangerous too.

 

Your argument about the parents/god thing pretty much shatters due to these reasons.

 

You're right, I don't have any reason to doubt that my parents are really my parents, whether I remember my early days or not, day in and day out, I saw them every morning and they fed me and clothed me, so by simple logic of putting the pieces together I can see that they are my parents (whether I am related to them or not). God is different though, nobody sees god, and if they say they do, they are crazy... There is plenty of evidence to suggest that "his" word in the bible is false, there are many fallacies in the bible, to many to count, and you're saying this word is perfect? This is where ignorance comes in, because people choose to believe it, even when rational fact has proven otherwise, it kind of makes me sick.

 

You say I don't tell the truth, you say i tell lies? No, I'm telling the only truth I know, facts and logic. You're trying to pose faith as fact, which its not. If you were true to your religion at all, you wouldn't need any evidence to validate it, you wouldn't need to defend yourself against what I say. But you do, further proving to me, and to anybody with half a brain that this idea is outdated and unneeded and to be quite frank, dangerous in this kind of world...seriously think about it.

 

And finally, I'm not saying that the world is meaningless, you can find meaning in anything, you just have to put yourself in a different frame of mind. All I'm saying is that I don't know the meaning, and that's ok...

Evidence of the existence of God exists in millions...

Anyone learning on the human body and its different mechanisms, is mind-boggled from the complex yet efficient way the human body works.

The human body consists of such complex mechanisms, that it is impossible to say that they were created without a plan. Just look at how much wisdom there is in the living.

 

The human eye...

 

Two eyes at the top of our heads, like two cameras seeing in three dimensions. Ears so we can hear and voice glands so we can speak. A brain to think and understand, and hands so we can write and hold.

In each of our nose nostrils there are approximately 10,000 different sensory receptors, and our brain cultivates these signals and remembers each and every particular odor.

 

It is a well-known fact, that water can in time destroy even the hardest rock. If so, how is it that the human teeth which can break from the slightest blow, are able to survive in the human mouth for over 5 decades?

How is it that the human teeth do not crumble and disappear over the years, not to mention sea creatures, shark scales or a snails shell.

 

It turns out that teeth are covered by a protective structure called the enamel, which helps to prevent cavities on the teeth. The layer beneath the enamel is called dentin, which is a softer, yellow-hued material. The dentin is pulled into the root, which is how the tooth is held to the jaw.

 

Beneath the dentin is the pulp and other tissues, blood vessels and nerves imbedded in the bony jaw, which lead oxygen and food substances into the tooth! Just look at how much genius is put into the planning of one seemingly simple tooth!

 

Everyone gets cut and bruised several times in their lives. How is it that you don't just bleed and bleed till there's nothing left?

Well, it turns out that when the human body loses blood through a wound, a certain liquid (containing platelets) is carried to the area of the wound, which cause the blood to clot so that the bleeding stops.

 

Without blood platelets, you would bleed to death. A greater wonder still, is the fact that the blood itself doesn't clot in the body.

 

Human beings are able to digest hard-to-process kinds of meat such as beef by using digestive acids. But, the human stomach itself is a kind of meat. How come the stomach doesn't digest itself? Luckily for us, a living stomach has ways to protect itself from itself, by producing layers of mucus that prevent it from self-digesting.

 

The human heart beats two milliard times during the average 70 years of the human life. A car engine doesn't survive for more than 10 years without malfunction, yet the human heart doesn't require any kind of maintenance. Even an artificial heart doesn't function for more than a few years.

 

And how much wisdom is in the fact that the heart "knows" it needs to begin beating twice as fast when we are physically active, and even though we get tired, the heart doesn't stop for even a second. Even the human liver filters approximately one liter of blood per minute!

 

The intestines are the body's factories, which never go wrong. They transform the food you eat into the nutrients our body requires, sends them to the different parts of the body, and filter out harmful substances or wastes.

The kidneys balance the volume of fluids and minerals in the body, and filter the wastes.

 

An iron engine cannot function for long without maintenance. How does the human body, which is made out of soft flesh able to live for such a long time without stopping? It is truly a miracle!

 

A mosquito as evidence of the existence of God!

 

Mosquitoes bite in order to suck blood out of our flesh, however when one is first bitten there is no instant reaction. How come? As it turns out, when a mosquito bites a human, it first injects saliva and anti-coagulants. Only when they ware off, do we feel the pain.

 

Evidence of the existence of God exists in millions!

 

...If you were true to your religion at all, you wouldn't need any evidence to validate it, you wouldn't need to defend yourself against what I say. But you do...

Personally I don't need any evidence to validate it... While you are closing your eyes you make yourself ignorance, so personally I'm committed to open your blind eyes...

Edited January 25, 2007 by yossicl

[killbot1000]

Evidence of the existence of God exists in millions...

Anyone learning on the human body and its different mechanisms, is mind-boggled from the complex yet efficient way the human body works.

The human body consists of such complex mechanisms, that it is impossible to say that they were created without a plan. Just look at how much wisdom there is in the living.

 

The human eye...

 

Two eyes at the top of our heads, like two cameras seeing in three dimensions. Ears so we can hear and voice glands so we can speak. A brain to think and understand, and hands so we can write and hold.

In each of our nose nostrils there are approximately 10,000 different sensory receptors, and our brain cultivates these signals and remembers each and every particular odor.

 

It is a well-known fact, that water can in time destroy even the hardest rock. If so, how is it that the human teeth which can break from the slightest blow, are able to survive in the human mouth for over 5 decades?

How is it that the human teeth do not crumble and disappear over the years, not to mention sea creatures, shark scales or a snails shell.

 

It turns out that teeth are covered by a protective structure called the enamel, which helps to prevent cavities on the teeth. The layer beneath the enamel is called dentin, which is a softer, yellow-hued material. The dentin is pulled into the root, which is how the tooth is held to the jaw.

 

Beneath the dentin is the pulp and other tissues, blood vessels and nerves imbedded in the bony jaw, which lead oxygen and food substances into the tooth! Just look at how much genius is put into the planning of one seemingly simple tooth!

 

Everyone gets cut and bruised several times in their lives. How is it that you don't just bleed and bleed till there's nothing left?

Well, it turns out that when the human body loses blood through a wound, a certain liquid (containing platelets) is carried to the area of the wound, which cause the blood to clot so that the bleeding stops.

 

Without blood platelets, you would bleed to death. A greater wonder still, is the fact that the blood itself doesn't clot in the body.

 

Human beings are able to digest hard-to-process kinds of meat such as beef by using digestive acids. But, the human stomach itself is a kind of meat. How come the stomach doesn't digest itself? Luckily for us, a living stomach has ways to protect itself from itself, by producing layers of mucus that prevent it from self-digesting.

 

The human heart beats two milliard times during the average 70 years of the human life. A car engine doesn't survive for more than 10 years without malfunction, yet the human heart doesn't require any kind of maintenance. Even an artificial heart doesn't function for more than a few years.

 

And how much wisdom is in the fact that the heart "knows" it needs to begin beating twice as fast when we are physically active, and even though we get tired, the heart doesn't stop for even a second. Even the human liver filters approximately one liter of blood per minute!

 

The intestines are the body's factories, which never go wrong. They transform the food you eat into the nutrients our body requires, sends them to the different parts of the body, and filter out harmful substances or wastes.

The kidneys balance the volume of fluids and minerals in the body, and filter the wastes.

 

An iron engine cannot function for long without maintenance. How does the human body, which is made out of soft flesh able to live for such a long time without stopping? It is truly a miracle!

 

A mosquito as evidence of the existence of God!

 

Mosquitoes bite in order to suck blood out of our flesh, however when one is first bitten there is no instant reaction. How come? As it turns out, when a mosquito bites a human, it first injects saliva and anti-coagulants. Only when they ware off, do we feel the pain.

 

Evidence of the existence of God exists in millions!

Personally I don't need any evidence to validate it... While you are closing your eyes you make yourself ignorance, so personally I'm committed to open your blind eyes...

 

I'm the blind one? Maybe you need to sit there and think for a little bit.

 

I don't understand how evidence of the existence of god is calculated in number of evidence...that kind of doesn't make any sense. Seriously please, study a little history and study a little science, and I think you'll find that those Millions of pieces of evidence for God's existence can be reduced considerably when rational thought is applied.

 

I am not blind. If anything you are the one who is blind because you assume to know that there is a god, and assume to know how everything was created. Well I'm proud to say that I don't know, and I want to know the REAL reason why things happen. That does NOT make me blind...

[yossicl]

I'm the blind one? Maybe you need to sit there and think for a little bit.

 

I don't understand how evidence of the existence of god is calculated in number of evidence...that kind of doesn't make any sense. Seriously please, study a little history and study a little science, and I think you'll find that those Millions of pieces of evidence for God's existence can be reduced considerably when rational thought is applied.

 

I am not blind. If anything you are the one who is blind because you assume to know that there is a god, and assume to know how everything was created. Well I'm proud to say that I don't know, and I want to know the REAL reason why things happen. That does NOT make me blind...

Did you see something in my post saying "I know everything"?!?!?

The different between me and you is that you believe that existent of everything was creates just like that and nobody was create it, but since they couldn't just pop into being out of nothing or by chance, I do believe GOD create them all.

Oh, and I wish I know one percent of everything that's would satisfy me…

[yossicl]

I've been out of this for a while so excuse me if i misunderstand anything.

Ok correct me if I'm wrong but in history didn't Moses leave the jews for a few days and then returns to find that they've all completely forgot all of his teachings and their God and instead erected another (a cow out of all bleeding thing)?

 

If you can completely forget the teachings of Moses in a matter of days and then go off in your own paths (to doom i guess) then what is there to say that you're not on another path to doom? I mean if you couldn't even be left for a few days without getting up to mischief then how do you expect any of us to believe you've been following his teachings for 3500 years?

 

And remember Moses supposedly saved you all with a miracle of the splitting of the river? If you can forget all his teachings even after a miracle you all witnessed, then there's no chance for you all.

AcePlayer, this one of the ridiculous and stupid thing I ever read.

My forefather was a slave under Egypt more then 260 years and when GOD gets them out of Egypt there was also mixed multitude (Egyptian's pagans) went up also with them which is mean they was not an Hebrews and which is mean they sin and not the children of Israel.

(Exodus 12,37) And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, beside children. (Exodus 12,38) And a mixed multitude went up also with them…

 

Btw, it was take about 2100 year (not 30 days) till your pagans forefather start to believe in GOD after my forefather …

 

Hazwan, do us a favor, get yourself a life…

[consolation]

But you see, all of this IS nature. The sea, fertility, the sky, the moon, war, slaughter, home, wine, vegetation, fertile earth. Its all nature, its as natural as you can get...

 

Christianity in comparison spouts off about Jesus and God all day and pretty much leaves the nature equivalent out of it. Even when nature is used, its a back door to god. For example, Noah's Ark. The earth was flooded BECAUSE the world was sinful or whatever. In that case, instead of being about nature it was about god.

 

There will be exceptions to any rule. All I'm saying is that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam do nothing new, all of the themes in these religions are common mythological themes that have existed in the middle east for thousands of years. The whole good/evil, God/Devil, Heaven/Hell theme come from Zorroastrianism, a religion that had a much greater emphasis on good vs evil than Judaism did at the time. It is just a common mythological theme, that's all I'm trying to say.

 

 

I know what you are saying but; I think that it only looks like nature worship from a 3000+ year perspective. Remember that at the time agriculture was high tech and war was industry. The sky was inhabited by divine beings which controlled your fate etc... Most of the beings associated directly with nature (like Dryads, Nymphs, Satyrs) etc were immortal but hardly divine in true sense of the word; remnants of the previous animist form of religion. They were mostly things out to trick and lead men astray. It's been a while ago since I read any, but I seem to remember that greek lit. sees nature as something to be overcome and conquered.

 

Anyhow, my undergrad classics were a long time ago so I'll just stop in case I'm putting my foot in my mouth lol

 

Back to the topic of yossicle ranting about God's plan for the master race

Edited January 26, 2007 by consolation

[killbot1000]

Did you see something in my post saying "I know everything"?!?!?

The different between me and you is that you believe that existent of everything was creates just like that and nobody was create it, but since they couldn't just pop into being out of nothing or by chance, I do believe GOD create them all.

Oh, and I wish I know one percent of everything that's would satisfy me…

 

 

well...it seems like you "know" there's a god, you point to everything and say "look, god did this" as if you know it...But you dont, you dont know that god did all these things, there may have been something that did do it, but saying its god, and then saying that that god is personal (like a person) is assuming way to much, thats all. In this regard, I know that I am right. I'm not saying youre wrong, all I'm saying is that the reasoning that you are basing this belief on is flawed. Afterall, "knowledge" as it is usually defined means justified true belief. all I'm saying is that your justification isnt justfication at all, what you say may very well be true, but it doesnt make any logical sense...

[yossicl]

well...it seems like you "know" there's a god, you point to everything and say "look, god did this" as if you know it...But you dont, you dont know that god did all these things, there may have been something that did do it, but saying its god, and then saying that that god is personal (like a person) is assuming way to much, thats all. In this regard, I know that I am right. I'm not saying youre wrong, all I'm saying is that the reasoning that you are basing this belief on is flawed. Afterall, "knowledge" as it is usually defined means justified true belief. all I'm saying is that your justification isnt justfication at all, what you say may very well be true, but it doesnt make any logical sense...

Good processes to you, now you know there is creator that create everything and existent of everything was not creates just like that.

 

Who is God and what evidences teach us of his existence?

 

The definition of God is "master of all forces", " sustainer of power and ruler of all", as well as "giver of justice". God is an abstract being that has neither body, shape nor form, and cannot be known or grasped by the human mind.

 

More and more people in our generation argue that God doesn't really exist and that humans made Him all up. It also happens that people who do believe in God, sometimes go through phases in their lives when they come to a point where ask themselves "Does God really exist?"

 

Gods' existence does not depend on the way

we see things at a certain period of our lives

 

When we don't see God, and from our point of view don't see any evidence of his interaction with the world, we start to question our faith.

However, Gods' existence does not depend on the way we see things at a certain period of our lives, just as the fact that the earth is round doesn't change when we look around and see a flat surface.

 

What facts can stabilize our trust in the existence of God?

 

God is the creator of the universe and all life, this is the only way in which He can be defined in our mind. The evidence of the existence of God is found in the world He created. This is because any creation implies on its creator.

Creation is the strongest evidence of God's existence, as is it stated in Psalms (19:2): "The heavens tell of God's glory, and the sky declares his handiwork". Creation implies on the existence of God just as a product sold in a store implies on its' manufacturer.

 

"The heavens tell of God's glory, and the sky declares his handiwork"

 

A well-known story is told of the scientist Sir Isaac Newton. A few guests that had come to visit him, asked him about his opinion on the existence of God.

Isaac Newton did not answer their question. Instead, he took his guests to look at a model he had built of the Sun System. The model is built in such a way, that the earth and stars were spinning around the sun, and the moon was spinning around the earth.

"Who built this fabulous model?" the guests had asked.

"Nobody", Newton had answered to much of their surprise, "it was created by itself!".

The scientists replied: "You must be joking, since it is impossible that this incredibly orderly model was created by itself".

 

Isaac Newton said: "If you don't believe that this simple model was created by itself, how can you possibly believe that our sun system, which is many times greater and more complex that this model, was created by itself???"

 

Who built this fabulous model?

 

In the world we live in there are many, many laws of nature operating, such as the Law of gravitation or the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy. Someone had to decide these laws!

 

Who decided that rain should fall in the winter and not the summer? Who decided that the sun should come out at daytime and the moon at night? Who decided that a pregnancy should last nine months? Who decided that when there is sunshine when it rains, a rainbow should appear?

 

Did these laws form by themselves or did someone decide upon them? Someone might say: "every law such as this was determined by its surrounding terms and physical laws!" We would then ask him: "but who determined the outside terms? Who decided on the physical laws that decide on other laws? If there is no God to decide upon the laws, then why are there constant laws, why is there an order?"

[killbot1000]

Do you listen to yourself? It's all circular logic, you dont make any sense, sorry...

[yossicl]

Do you listen to yourself? It's all circular logic, you dont make any sense, sorry...

Pleas explain yourself.

[killbot1000]

Good processes to you, now you know there is creator that create everything and existent of everything was not creates just like that.

 

Who is God and what evidences teach us of his existence?

 

The definition of God is "master of all forces", " sustainer of power and ruler of all", as well as "giver of justice". God is an abstract being that has neither body, shape nor form, and cannot be known or grasped by the human mind.

 

More and more people in our generation argue that God doesn't really exist and that humans made Him all up. It also happens that people who do believe in God, sometimes go through phases in their lives when they come to a point where ask themselves "Does God really exist?"

 

Gods' existence does not depend on the way

we see things at a certain period of our lives

 

When we don't see God, and from our point of view don't see any evidence of his interaction with the world, we start to question our faith.

However, Gods' existence does not depend on the way we see things at a certain period of our lives, just as the fact that the earth is round doesn't change when we look around and see a flat surface.

 

What facts can stabilize our trust in the existence of God?

 

God is the creator of the universe and all life, this is the only way in which He can be defined in our mind. The evidence of the existence of God is found in the world He created. This is because any creation implies on its creator.

Creation is the strongest evidence of God's existence, as is it stated in Psalms (19:2): "The heavens tell of God's glory, and the sky declares his handiwork". Creation implies on the existence of God just as a product sold in a store implies on its' manufacturer.

 

"The heavens tell of God's glory, and the sky declares his handiwork"

 

A well-known story is told of the scientist Sir Isaac Newton. A few guests that had come to visit him, asked him about his opinion on the existence of God.

Isaac Newton did not answer their question. Instead, he took his guests to look at a model he had built of the Sun System. The model is built in such a way, that the earth and stars were spinning around the sun, and the moon was spinning around the earth.

"Who built this fabulous model?" the guests had asked.

"Nobody", Newton had answered to much of their surprise, "it was created by itself!".

The scientists replied: "You must be joking, since it is impossible that this incredibly orderly model was created by itself".

 

Isaac Newton said: "If you don't believe that this simple model was created by itself, how can you possibly believe that our sun system, which is many times greater and more complex that this model, was created by itself???"

 

Who built this fabulous model?

 

In the world we live in there are many, many laws of nature operating, such as the Law of gravitation or the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy. Someone had to decide these laws!

 

Who decided that rain should fall in the winter and not the summer? Who decided that the sun should come out at daytime and the moon at night? Who decided that a pregnancy should last nine months? Who decided that when there is sunshine when it rains, a rainbow should appear?

 

Did these laws form by themselves or did someone decide upon them? Someone might say: "every law such as this was determined by its surrounding terms and physical laws!" We would then ask him: "but who determined the outside terms? Who decided on the physical laws that decide on other laws? If there is no God to decide upon the laws, then why are there constant laws, why is there an order?"

 

 

God is an abstract being that has neither body, shape nor form, and cannot be known or grasped by the human mind. - This is an assumption, there is no way to know for sure that this is the case.

 

Gods' existence does not depend on the way

we see things at a certain period of our lives - Again, how do you know this, if you use the Bible as your source, you're going to have to find a credible document to back it up.

 

 

What facts can stabilize our trust in the existence of God?

 

God is the creator of the universe and all life, this is the only way in which He can be defined in our mind. The evidence of the existence of God is found in the world He created. This is because any creation implies on its creator.

Creation is the strongest evidence of God's existence, as is it stated in Psalms (19:2): "The heavens tell of God's glory, and the sky declares his handiwork". Creation implies on the existence of God just as a product sold in a store implies on its' manufacturer.

 

You point to the "fact" that god exists as proof for gods existance, then you quote the bible, as so many theists do, hoping that will prove to me that you're right, but you're talking to somebody who doesn't hold the bible in high regard, its not a part of my life, and I quite frankly could care less about it, you have to argue with a scientific mind on scientific terms, thats how you win an argument.

 

A well-known story is told of the scientist Sir Isaac Newton. A few guests that had come to visit him, asked him about his opinion on the existence of God.

Isaac Newton did not answer their question. Instead, he took his guests to look at a model he had built of the Sun System. The model is built in such a way, that the earth and stars were spinning around the sun, and the moon was spinning around the earth.

"Who built this fabulous model?" the guests had asked.

"Nobody", Newton had answered to much of their surprise, "it was created by itself!".

The scientists replied: "You must be joking, since it is impossible that this incredibly orderly model was created by itself".

 

Isaac Newton said: "If you don't believe that this simple model was created by itself, how can you possibly believe that our sun system, which is many times greater and more complex that this model, was created by itself???"

 

Who built this fabulous model?

 

In the world we live in there are many, many laws of nature operating, such as the Law of gravitation or the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy. Someone had to decide these laws!

 

This is not a good explanation for the solar system for many reasons. One is that Newtons "laws" are being dis-proven year after year with the advent of quantum physics, the universe is actually a lot less orderly than we think, we find that when we go further and further down to the subatomic that things (atoms, electrons, etc.) don't behave in nearly the same way as we thought they did kind of like chaos within order, its really strange. Anyway, second, Isaac Newton's opinion does not count as proof, when he was doing his research, we knew next to nothing about how the universe works, and we still don't know a lot, but we are learning more every day, and scientifically it is possible to explain how our solar system got here, and the explanations make sense. And assuming these laws are valid, its quite POSSIBLE that nobody invented these laws, that these laws just happen to be the way our universe works...like a machine.

 

Who decided that rain should fall in the winter and not the summer? Who decided that the sun should come out at daytime and the moon at night? Who decided that a pregnancy should last nine months? Who decided that when there is sunshine when it rains, a rainbow should appear?

 

Did these laws form by themselves or did someone decide upon them? Someone might say: "every law such as this was determined by its surrounding terms and physical laws!" We would then ask him: "but who determined the outside terms? Who decided on the physical laws that decide on other laws? If there is no God to decide upon the laws, then why are there constant laws, why is there an order?"

 

The simple fact that you are asking this question proves you know nothing about the subjects:

 

#1. It does rain in the summer, depending on where you live, I live in Seattle, and it rains plenty in the summer. And it is decided by ocean currents and atmospheric conditions that cause rain, not some divine creator waving "his" magic wand.

 

#2. This statement is really ridiculous the fact that we can see the sun makes it daytime, the fact that we see the moon at night is just the sun's light reflecting off the moon like a mirror. But if you meant it in terms of day and night, (ie - why isn't the sun shining on us at night?) then really you're just playing with words because when the sun shines on us, it IS daytime.

 

#3. Nobody "decided" that a pregnancy should last nine months, it's just our biology and how our body works. Elephants are pregnant for 18 months, whats your point?

 

#4. Nobody decided that when theres sun and rain together that it forms a rainbow. This is because the raindrops act like a prism breaking the light into the color spectrum, its not amazing, but its the way things are.

 

Finally, again, I don't know why these laws are the way they are, but I cant assume a god did it because I don't know...it just doesnt make any logical sense. It's like saying

 

A is caused by B, therefore A and B is caused by C

 

It is an invalid and unsound argument.

 

 

IT IS ONLY AN ORDER BECAUSE WE ARE PART OF THAT ORDER!!!!!!!!!!! I cant express that to you enough, the universe only seems orderly to us because we're part of that order, if we could see a universe that was different from ours, we would say its disorderly because we're not part of the order and it wouldn't make any sense.

 

When theists come up with these kind of arguments, I cant help but think that they have a screw missing in their brain or something to where they cant understand basic concepts of logic and science. ahh, it drives me crazy!!

[quixos]

this thread has moved so far from the first post, i feel like submitting a pudding recipe.

 

god or lack of god, or who's god, can beat your gods ass, has nothing to do with what is going

on in israel or palestine. it is a political and sociological problem.

 

there really should be a dedicated thread for those who worry about the god thing. one of you

should start one, and rule it with an iron fist.

[consolation]

this thread has moved so far from the first post, i feel like submitting a pudding recipe.

 

Apple Fool Recipe

 

Ingredients:

2 pounds tart apples -- peeled, cored and sliced

3/8 cup water

1 tablespoon sugar

7 1/2 ounces blackberries -- drained, canned unsweetened

5 ounces lowfat yogurt -- (unsweetened)

 

Directions:

 

Place apples, water and sugar in saucepan, cover and simmer gently until soft. Allow to cool. Meanwhile, puree the blackberries in a blender or food processor then sieve to remove pips.

 

Puree the apples, add to the blackberries, and fold in the yogurt.

 

Spoon into individual glass dishes and chill before serving.

 

This recipe for Apple Fool serves/makes 6

Edited January 30, 2007 by consolation

[Mebster]

this thread has moved so far from the first post, i feel like submitting a pudding recipe.

 

god or lack of god, or who's god, can beat your gods ass, has nothing to do with what is going

on in israel or palestine.

Ok, the Israel's are still killing the Palestinians at a rate of 1:10. All this while their president is being done for rape. lol.

[killbot1000]

Hehe, yeah, that's not gonna look good for the Israelis... oh well

[yossicl]

Ok, the Israel's are still killing the Palestinians at a rate of 1:10. All this while their president is being done for rape. lol.

Correction... Now the Palestinians kills one the other at a rate of 20:20...

[killbot1000]

Correction... Now the Palestinians kills one the other at a rate of 20:20...

 

 

Nice try yossicl...

[gwprod12]

Wouldnt that mean that for every 20 palestinians who are killed by a palestinian, 20 palestinians are killed also?

[yossicl]

Nice try yossicl...

Just the facts mam...just the facts!

[yossicl]

Wouldnt that mean that for every 20 palestinians who are killed by a palestinian, 20 palestinians are killed also?

Should they have to be the same?

Edited January 31, 2007 by yossicl

[Mebster]

Correction... Now the Palestinians kills one the other at a rate of 20:20...

Firstly what is that?

Secondly 20:20 = 1:1. Correction!