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Israel and Palestine


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#1
Swad

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More power to them.

While I don't agree with some of the things they've done in the past, I think they've got every right to do what they're doing in Gaza and now Lebanon. In Gaza, they left and tried to work with the new government (which I thought would work out after Arafat died) but now Hamas (a much more complex organization than most realize, with charities, etc) won't let anything happen. In Lebanon, after today, there's a similar situation.

In the end, all of this is because the Palestinians didn't accept the original agreement set out by the UN in the 50's, nor all the chances for peace that Arafat passed up. I have 0 sympathy for them - and I'm a really sympathetic guy - because they (and their elected leaders) have time and again spoiled their chances for peace and autonomy.

Israel needs to conduct themselves with honor (ie, making every effort not to harm civilians, etc) but they have every right to retaliate with everything they've got.

#2
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Between Isreal and the Palestinians, fault can be apportioned almost equally.

Does Isreal have a right to exist? Yes, the only right that matters: They refuse to be pushed into the sea.
Do the palestinians have a right to a nation of their own? Yes, but it's time they started building one.

The way I understand it, the right of return is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to Isreali-Palestinian peace.
It breaks down to basicly, palestinian's left isreal for syria and jordan before the 6 day war (I think), selling their property and belongings to Isrealis. They assumed that Egypt, Syria, Jordan, et al would quickly topple the Isreali regime and butcher all the jews, and the Palestinians who'd sold their stuff would get it all back. That didnt happen. Naturally, the Palestinians want their stuff back. But frankly, they backed the wrong horse. Time to move on.

The Isrealis arent wholy blameless either. They've been consistantly destroying towns and living spaces in the west bank territories to build settlements and such things. And they havent really made an attempt to bring the Palestinians back to their feet.

Do the Isrealis have the right to lob mortar rounds into the west bank trying to hit terrorists? Sure.
Do the Palestinians have the right to strap dynamite to themselves, walk into a cafe and pull the cord? Sure.

It's a vicious cycle.

#3
Mebster

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More power to them.

While I don't agree with some of the things they've done in the past, I think they've got every right to do what they're doing in Gaza and now Lebanon. In Gaza, they left and tried to work with the new government (which I thought would work out after Arafat died) but now Hamas (a much more complex organization than most realize, with charities, etc) won't let anything happen. In Lebanon, after today, there's a similar situation.

In the end, all of this is because the Palestinians didn't accept the original agreement set out by the UN in the 50's, nor all the chances for peace that Arafat passed up. I have 0 sympathy for them - and I'm a really sympathetic guy - because they (and their elected leaders) have time and again spoiled their chances for peace and autonomy.

Israel needs to conduct themselves with honor (ie, making every effort not to harm civilians, etc) but they have every right to retaliate with everything they've got.


I'm not a Jew hater or anything but i have to wonder what on earth you're talking about.

I can give you a million and one reason as to why what you're talking about is complete nonsense. And the trouble is most of the world agrees.... all except America.

A simple example is that Israel takes (and kills) Palestinian citizens all the time. It says they are terrorists often because they oppose the illegal occupations (which accounts for all of the Arab, Muslim world.... damn the whole world - America). So it is surprising that once in a while an Israeli soldier might be taken. This is a soldier! The Palestinian equivalent to a terrorist. They shoot civilians (even aid works). What more do you need to do to be a terrorist. To take this guy is such a normal thing to do. Most of us in living in the Palestinian situation would probably do it given how desperate we are. Although the captors have asked for dialogue over and over again Israel refuses and put the life of the soldier and all Palestinian people at risk by attacking Gaza with its shells. How on earth can you bomb one of the worlds most crowded places? That's just BARBARIC.

But then again that mother f*kin resist c*nt doesnít give a {censored}e. :)
Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister : "I am deeply sorry for the residents of Gaza, but the lives, security and well-being of the residents of Sderot is even more important (than that of Palestinians)"

The Independent

Dude you really need to read into this a lot more. Because the evidence against them is too strong to defend their actions. I really could go on but I don't have time. But isn't it weird that it's only the American and itís Media (and i watch American news) that supports Israel. Damn the US media! The Europe and the rest of the non-Muslim world doesn't. It seems the brutality they are forced to go through isnít worth any attention. Instead why not give Israel more money (billions of tax payers money) to buy those shiny tanks and apache helicopters they need to gun down Palestinian civilians.

(Note: I created a new thread as I was intending to and Mashes thread 'Israel' does not fully include the Palestinian side of the argument I thought)

#4
gwprod12

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The Palestinians have a long and glorious history of backing the wrong horse. As part of the Ottoman Empire, they were allied with Prussia and Austro-Hungry (the central powers) in WWI, which is what lost them their ottonomy (autonomy, just being funny). In WWII, the Palestinians supported the Axis Powers against the British. After WWII, as partial punishment for that behavior, the United Nations Segmented Palestine into two nations, Palestine and the Isreali territories. In 1948, the local powers that be in the middle-east decided to take it apon themselves to obliterate Isreal. The Palestinians supported them. They lost. Isreal grew. In 1967 (6-days war, I believe), Those same powers that be attempted to swat Isreal. The palestinians again backed that horse. Again, they lost. Again, Isreal grew.

Technically, The West Bank is Isreali occupied territory won through reverse conquest. It sucks that Palestinian refuges are stuck there, but let's be honest. It's basicly their own fault.

You simply cannot deny that if someone attacks me, I dont have the write to stomp them down.

Outside of the united states, there is a lot of sympathy for the palestinian cause, I am sympathetic too... but while Isreal has done ruthless things to maintain their sovereignty, they really are within their moral rights to do so.

EDIT: Also. The only nation that can really mediate a co-existence agreement between the Palestinian Territories and Isreal is the United States. Seriously, get practical. Isreal will never be driven into the sea. No matter what Hamas or whoever does, Isreal will never just pack up and go. But instead of realizing this fact, moving on and creating a decent existence for the palestinian people, they continue to fight the fight as if the fight could actually be won. It cant. Not now anyways. Sue for peace, get a nation, give people jobs. In 50 years, maybe things will be different. Then, when palestine has tanks and planes and nuclear weapons and an economy and the United States is gone or doesnt care, then will be the time to drive Isreal into the sea.

#5
Swad

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Thread merged for organization purposes, adjusted name for AcePlayer. :)

I'll respond tomorrow morning. :)

#6
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Then, when palestine has tanks and planes and nuclear weapons and an economy and the United States is gone or doesnt care, then will be the time to drive Isreal into the sea.

Isreal will always stand, and their enemies will be destroyed.

#7
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#8
johnniecarcinogen

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I'm not a Jew hater or anything but i have to wonder what on earth you're talking about.

I can give you a million and one reason as to why what you're talking about is complete nonsense. And the trouble is most of the world agrees.... all except America.

A simple example is that Israel takes (and kills) Palestinian citizens all the time. It says they are terrorists often because they oppose the illegal occupations (which accounts for all of the Arab, Muslim world.... dame the whole world - America). So it is surprising that once in a while an Israeli soldiermight be taken. This is a soldier! The Palestinian equivalent to a terrorist. They shoot civilians (even aid works). What more do you need to do to be a terrorist. To take this guy is such a normal thing to do. Most of us in living in the Palestinian situation would probably do it given how desperate we are. Although the captors have asked for dialogue over and over again Israel refuses and put the life of the soldier and all Palestinian people at risk by attacking Gaza with its shells. How on earth can you bomb one of the worlds most crowded places? That's just BARBARIC.


National military service is compulsory for Jewish and Druze men, and Jewish women, over the age of 18. So the kidnapping/killing of a soldier that is not actively fighting is equivelent to a young Palestinian adult.

#9
Swad

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Great point, johnnie.

Like I said, AcePlayer - if Israel kills civilians, they're wrong. Period. It's not a policy they have in general, and I'm sure the number of civilians killed is way less than those done by the years of suicide bombers (although body counting is never a good way to discuss things like this).

How on earth can you bomb one of the worlds most crowded places? That's just BARBARIC.


Great question. It's what Hamas, the PLO, and other groups have been doing for years.

Technically, The West Bank is Isreali occupied territory won through reverse conquest. It sucks that Palestinian refuges are stuck there, but let's be honest. It's basicly their own fault.


Good point. And let me say that I am all for Palestinian independence. I'm also for Kurdish independence, but that's something that Arabs in the middle east who support the Palestinians probably won't agree with. Double standard? I think so.

#10
Mebster

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Israel will always stand, and their enemies will be destroyed

:blink:

National military service is compulsory for Jewish and Druze men, and Jewish women, over the age of 18. So the kidnapping/killing of a soldier that is not actively fighting is equivelent to a young Palestinian adult.

I really couldnít give a ratís {censored} if itís compulsory or not. They go around killing innocent civilians. They could be rightfully labelled terrorists just as Arabs are. They terrorise the Palestinians. Ok they don't use bombs strapped to them but they don't need to. With billions of US 'aid' they have their gunships to do all the dirty work from a safe distance.
You can't compare a guy who is so frustrated with the occupation that he is willing to take his own life as he retaliates and someone who fires shells from a ship far in the sea.

It's not a policy they have in general, and I'm sure the number of civilians killed is way less than those done by the years of suicide bombers (although body counting is never a good way to discuss things like this).

Oh my god that is complete nonsense. I'm sorry to say dude.
# your air force fires 1,000 missiles per week at a 7x30 mile strip of land (Gaza) that is home to over 1.4 million impoverished people (Palestinians), 50% of whom are under the age of 15
# 3012 Palestinian Civilians have been killed by Israeli Occupation Forces in the Occupied Palestinian Territories since the beginning of the Palestinian uprising (Intifada) in 2000
# 22,750 Palestinians have been wounded by Israeli Occupation Forces in the Gaza Strip and West Bank in the same period


And all of this when:
# in the same period approximately 700 Israeli civilians have been killed as a result of Palestinian attacks
# during all of 2005, just six Israeli Occupation Forces were killed by Palestinian resistance fighters


Palestinian deaths compared to Israeli are more than 4 times higher. Israel is always disproportionate when it comes to its retaliation. The whole of Europe criticises it for that but all the US can say is "we are deeply concerned". Mother f'kers.

Israel has been complaining about the rocket fires the Palestinians fire as though it kills hundreds. But most people don't know the facts.
#June 14th - June 23rd this year, 14 innocent Palestinian civilians were murdered by the IDF as part of the effort to stop the firing of rockets at Sderot.
#Yet in the past 5 years, just 5 Israeli citizens have been killed by such rockets, despite the fact that hundreds have been fired.


What do the Israelis do? They nock down hundreds of homes (US -we are deeply concerned). Fire shells from land, air and sea onto the Palestinian people. No wonder there are 22,750 casualties. You can't compare firing a few (maybe 5, 10, 15 a day) rockets with 1,000 missiles that Israel fires a week. And this is in a place where most people are young adults or children.

The Palestinians know that they are more likely to be killed while going to fire the rockets than the rockets are likely to cause any serious harm to Israelis but they still do this because of the frustrating situation they have been put in.

Great question. It's what Hamas, the PLO, and other groups have been doing for years.

Hamas had been holding to a year-long unilateral ceasefire with Israel i.e. while Israel continued to attack and kill militants and civilians in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, Hamas did not respond. It only responded Israeli missile killed a 7 year old girls parents and 5 siblings. Although Israel fires missiles from the sea every day, they denied it was one of their missiles. How stupid can you be? Who else is going to fire on the beach, you could even see the ship from the beach. An expert was brought in by the BBC and confirmed it was an Israeli missile. This is why Muslims call Israelis liars. Even Allah curses them because of their lies. They have been caught lying all the time. They tried to cover up the death of the young British air worker killed by an Israeli solder (shot point blank), who was helping covering children from the gunfire. What a hero. Helping children. And what does he get for it. SHOT. It could easily have been a child instead hence the large number of casualties. The soldier eventually owned up on his own simply because he could not take the burden of his crimes. But notices the Israelis did nothing to aid the truth coming out. Instead they tried to conceal it. And they do this all the time. "we didn't fire into that crowd" Yes you did! "we didn't kill that little boy". Yes you did, its on camera you #@>[?.

You can't put all the blame on Hamas. They stayed quiet for over a year while their citizens were being massacred. This is odd given that Hamas is a government now in power. What more can you ask? I mean do you see the White House sitting quiet for over a year while Americans are being killed on a daily bases? The story of the girl was too much for anyone to take. And how do they retaliate? They take a soldier hostage. Not kill him as most would say he deserves but keep him hostage hoping to exchange him with Palestinian women and children held in Israeli jails. Women and Children!

#11
Kiko

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Same here, im no jew hater, but it seems that all the problems in that region links back to them( Israel), Lebanon hates them, Iran, Syria and palestine do to. Heck, i wouldl to if half my country got given away to people without even asking. Israel should NOT exist. Who do the UN think that they are that they have so much power to take away half a nations land and give it to some people, who i se at the time didnt even deserve it.

They shouldnt of gotton it even if they did "deserve" it, it is just not right. Now that Hamas is in power in Palestine, they have been elected by the people so they obviously want them to be in power the rest of the world has to denounce this democratically elected government and call them terrorists, Terroism is sending rockets to beahces with lots of peole onit and killing innoncen tcivilians, lkeaving many kids maimed for life and without families.

i think Israel deserves everything they get

#12
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There's no 'occupation' in the Gaza-strip right now, but the arabs are still attacking Israel from there.
The Arabs surrounding Israel see 'the land of Israel' as an 'occupied Palestine', but the truth is that the land of Israel belongs to the people of Israel, and no matter how many suicide-bombers will bomb themselves among Israeli civilians ISRAEL WILL WIN ALL OF THEM, BECAUSE THE ISRAELIS ARE DEFENDING THEIR ONLY HOMELAND, the arabs have 22 countries to go to.
Look at the Bible, the holiest book, and see that Israel belongs to the People of Israel - the Jewish People. Even the Koran says it, but for some reason the arabs and others seem to ignore this fact and fight for something they have no right fighting for. The arabs cannot have Israel - it never was and never will be theirs to claim.

#13
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you know what aceplayer,
imagine someone fireing rockets at your home, with the intention to hurt you, not your army, you ! you are a civilian not a soldier, there is no justification for that.
no imagine that the people firing at your home are doing that from the yards of innocent civilians, and then hide in their homes, what would you do ?
would you let them go and allow them to keep firing rockets at your home ?

now you got that thing in lebanon, and i must ask you again,
does israel occupy lebanon ? NO !
than why does the hizbolla sit on the border attacking israel ?
why doesn't lebanon's army sit on their border ?
you know why ? because syria and iran both support that organization, and lebanon can't do anything about it since they are nothing more than puppets for syria !

it's time lebanon would take things to their own hands, it's time that they confront hizbolla on their own borders, but don't kid yourself, if they won't do it, we would, since we can't afford to have an organization like hizbolla sitting on our borders, attaking inside israel from within israel.

and yes it is unfortunate that civilians are hurt in the process, but it's only because those terrorists are attacking from within civilian areas and there is no way to target them and leaving those civilians out of that since those terrorists have already got them into the whole thing.

aceplayer, you know what makes a terrorist a terrorist ?
when they attack they attack civilians for the purpose to attack civilians,
while israel retliates, we target the one attacked us, but he is hiding inside civilian populated areas, as they believe that they are either defended there or they believe that their death would bring the death of the civilians and the world would make the israelis stop.
the israeli soldiers do not butcher civilians, the terrorists put them on the line of fire in purpose ! is that humanity ?

you talked about the ceasfire (AKA Hudna) between israel and the hamas,
that happned while we took apart the settlements in the Gaza strip, the Hamas had an intrest to make it look like a ceasfire, but in that "Hudna" rockets were shot on israeli cities, and we attacked the people firing them.

by the way, kiko you talked about that incident at the beach, do you really belive that some guy in a plane targeted that beach in order to kill those people ?

and one more thing, similar to kiko and aceplayer, i'm no jew hater (as i am a jew) and more importantly i'm no arab hater, i raelly really want to see an independent palastinian state most israeli do except extremest left winged israelis which account to a small percent of the israelis.
when israel pulled back from gaza most of israel was behind that move, it had a tremendous support since we all believed that finally we are going to see solutions, and soon a palastinan state would rise on borders based on the `67 borders, borders that would allow the palastinian and the israelis to coexist in PEACE. but not much suicide bombers kept on coming from gaza, and rockets kept on flying from gaza, a place where israel has nothing to do with anymore.

kiko, aceplayer, you know why Hamas was elected ?
not because the ideals, most palastinans want peace just like most israelis, most palastinans don't want a religous government, but most palastinans want to get back at the PLO, you see while Arafat was leading the PLO the corruption was enourmous and the palastinans didn't want anything to do with them anymore so they went for the other option, Hamas.


man that was one long post... my fingers are tired...

#14
OryHara

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:D

You will see.

I really couldnít give a ratís {censored} if itís compulsory or not. They go around killing innocent civilians. They could be rightfully labelled terrorists just as Arabs are. They terrorise the Palestinians. Ok they don't use bombs strapped to them but they don't need to. With billions of US 'aid' they have their gunships to do all the dirty work from a safe distance.
You can't compare a guy who is so frustrated with the occupation that he is willing to take his own life as he retaliates and someone who fires shells from a ship far in the sea.

:dev:

#15
gwprod12

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I suppose that in practice, any military force could be considered terrorists...

Is a terrorist someone who kills people?

#16
Swad

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From the Wall Street Journal today:

Israel's military invasion and naval blockade of Lebanon is being denounced in European capitals and at the United Nations as a "disproportionate" response to the kidnapping this week of two of its soldiers by Hezbollah. Israel's decision late last month to invade Gaza in retaliation for the kidnapping of another soldier by Hamas was also condemned as lacking in proportion. So here's a question for our global solons: Since hostage-taking is universally regarded as an act of war, what "proportionate" action do they propose for Israel?

In the case of Hamas, perhaps Israel could rain indiscriminate artillery fire on Gaza City, surely a proportionate response to the 800 rockets Hamas has fired at Israeli towns in the last year alone. In the case of Hezbollah, it might mean carpet bombing a section of south Beirut, another equally proportionate response to Hezbollah's attacks on civilian Jewish and Israeli targets in Buenos Aires in the early 1990s.

We aren't being serious, but neither is a feckless international community that refuses to proportionately denounce the outrages to which Israel is being subjected. That goes also for Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who says "all sides must act with restraint." But Israel's current problems result in part from an excess of restraint in responding to previous Hamas and Hezbollah provocations.

Now Israel is confronted with a war on two fronts with proxy terrorists armed and financed by Syria and Iran. Yesterday, medium- range Hezbollah rockets hit civilian targets across northern Israel. Any of those rockets might easily hit the port city of Haifa's oil refineries and chemical plants, causing horrific damage that would give Israel cause, and perhaps the self-preservation necessity, to strike Damascus and Tehran.

So far, Israel is limiting its military activities to Lebanon alone, out of the same abundance of restraint that has governed its behavior throughout the crisis. The democratic Lebanese government of Fouad Siniora bears its share of the blame, since it has failed to police its side of the border with Israel and failed to disarm Hezbollah, as required by Security Council Resolution 1559 and the 1989 Taif Accords that ended the Lebanese civil war. Senior Israeli military sources also claim that Lebanon tolerates the presence of hundreds of Iranian military personnel in Lebanon, again in violation of U.N. resolutions.

But Mr. Siniora's failings owe to weakness, not malfeasance, particularly in the face of Syria's continued meddling in Lebanese affairs following the departure of its army last year. A larger problem has been the failure of the Bush Administration to press Damascus harder when it had the opportunity to do so in the wake of last year's Cedar Revolution. The U.N. investigation into the murder of Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri, in which all evidence points to the involvement of senior associates and relatives of Syrian dictator Bashar Assad, seems to have disappeared in a black hole. Nor has the U.S. exacted any price for Syria's ongoing support for the insurgents in Iraq.

Critics of the Bush Administration will surely find a way to blame it for the current crisis, on the theory that this is what happens when you push for change in the Middle East. But the real problem is the growing perception among Arab regimes and terrorist frontmen that the U.S. is so bogged down in Iraq, and so suddenly deferential to the wishes of the "international community," that it has lost its appetite for serious reform. This has created openings for the kind of terror assaults on American allies we are now witnessing.

Israel can and will handle the immediate military threats on its two borders. But ultimately there will be no resolution in Lebanon and Gaza until the regimes in Syria and Iran believe they will pay a price for the wars they are waging through their proxies. The referral this week of Iran's nuclear file to the U.N. Security Council is a start, although we have little confidence it will lead anywhere. The White House has cited Syria and Iran as the culprits behind this week's events, but more forceful words and action are called for. The Middle East stands on the cusp of its worst crisis in a generation, and this is no time for formulaic statements calling for "restraint from both sides."

#17
gwprod12

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Stop being such a martyr for Islam. If you wanna be a muslim, I think that's fantastic. But Islam isnt "better". It's just another superstition for uneducated people to believe in.

Islam's growth rate is directly tied to it's birth rate, not to conversions.

#18
Swad

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Just a note - I've cleaned up this thread, due to a few edits done by posters themselves.

No calling names or demeaning other people. Whatever faith you follow, I'm fairly sure it doesn't support hatred/anger/belittling others.

Anyway, proceed. :D

#19
munky

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Wow... just... wow. Ok, firstly i'm amazed you feel comfortable weighing in on one side or the other on this, Mash - i've been struggling for years to try to comprehend both sides of this conflict, and understand it from a historical perspective. (Btw, to which end this is a fantastic read). I still don't feel that I know enough about the situation to support either side.

Secondly, that WSJ article is so right-wing its unreal. Its basically calling for US military action in the middle east. Do you really think thats a good idea? Are we still not past the idea of USA: World Police?

As far as I can see, the Jews got kicked out of their home by the Romans, wandered the earth for a couple thousand years, got the UTTER {censored} kicked out of them by Hitler, and got SERIOUSLY pissed off, and therefore SERIOUSLY organised and SERIOUSLY armed. You can sympathise with their situation. However, the Arabs had been living there for the couple thousand years, and were suddenly overrun with immigrants who claimed the whole place was theirs anyway. You can sympathise with that situation also.

Its a very, very sad state of affairs, and I don't even pretend to know the answer. But I do know that shelling / bombing / shooting of civilians is wrong, no matter who perpetrates it.

#20
gwprod12

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One point... The jews didnt just show up in 1948. They were there already, under a palestinian mandate of the british empire. The only difference between 1947 and 1949 is some lines on a map and some fighting. The palestinians who are refuges left the isreali territories. Now they want to come back. Isreal is having none of it. In the past 50 years, there has been a lot of immigration to Isreal, but the Jews didnt just invade en masse. They've always lived there. Now they just have their own country.





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