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End The Whine Day - May 20th


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#41
pollycat

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As well as calling technical support and sales about this, how about also "flooding" the online forum at www.apple.com?

http://discussions.a...pa?forumID=1149

This could be done by each person who owns a problematic machines starting a new thread simply listing their problems. Each thread called have the subject "Apple - do something!" or something like that.

Of course, the moderators will delete these threads as fast as they are posted, but keeping them busy hunting down and deleting these threads might also alert them that this is a real problem. Just another "signal" to Apple that MBP owners really take these problems seriously.

#42
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Lol pollycat - that's not a bad idea, although there are already a TON of threads on this topic. If you have an issue, I'd encourage you to post it there, but I'm sure it's pretty clear to them that, on the forum, there is a problem.

I'm just so amazed that with so many different people commenting on it already, we haven't heard anything. Crazy.

Anyway, I wrote an update on the status of this initiative and a few justifications here:
http://www.osx86proj...id=182&Itemid=2

#43
Vlad the Compiler

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Words cannot even begin to properly and accurately describe my reaction to this idea, as someone who's been in the tech support field for going on eight years, now, both in low-level, senior tech, and management capacities. However, I shall try to make my point plain without devolving into flamethrowing.

I can understand wanting to make the problem known... however, the problem IS already known. These things take time to research, test, and develop fixes for, so that when a fix is finally released, it doesn't cause more problems. This applies to any manufacturing process, from computers to cars to mechanical pencils. All the companies ask for is some patience, and Apple has been better than most at saying, "Okay, yeah. There's a problem, we're working on it."

On the flipside, Apple is also a huge media target. It seems like when Steve decides to go to the bathroom, it turns into a major news event. With that in mind, I can certainly comprehend wanting to wait until the facts are certain before making any statements or press releases, because we all know what happens when the facts get released, and later proven wrong. The company, no matter who it is, gets crucified by public opinion, largely by people who have no more comprehension of the true issue at hand than a tadpole could have of how to fly a jet fighter.

Given that, I think a little slack is called for.

This 'call-in' day you are proposing is nothing short of childish. It is nothing more than a scream for attention, and it will do nothing more than overload Apple's call centers and make the lives of their employees extremely difficult as they try to cope with the overload, AND have to deal with the other users who are displaced in the queue and whose own lives and issues will be made more difficult as a direct result of your actions, should you follow through on this plan.

You claim to be striking a blow for the Mac community. Well Mr. Mash, you are actually striking a blow against it by doing this. Apple is already aware of the problem, and your attempt to "strong-arm" them into taking action that you decide is correct smacks of the worst sort of extortionist tactics, and only decreases the reputation of the Mac community as a whole. I especially look forward to the cries complaining about the hold time when the irony is that the people complaining are the very individuals responsible for said hold time in the first place. It's mob mentality, and that by definition is not representative of how most Mac users, myself included, prefer to present themselves. It sends the message that we are a group with an overbearing need for instant gratification, and an overblown sense of entitlement, and that we don't care who gets hurt as long as we get what's "ours."

I think this is an alarmingly bad idea, and I encourage all of you to avoid following through on it. If you feel a need to call in, then call in at a time of your choosing. The information gets to the engineers and designers either way, and if it all comes in at once, there's a higher chance that something critical may be missed, thus hurting the cause. Spacing the reports out provides for the opportunity to investigate more in-depth, and will potentially decrease the amount of overall time required to isolate the issue and fix it reliably.

In any case... that's my two cents on the topic. I realize my view may be an unpopular one, but I ask that you at least consider it in an objective light before reacting.

-VtC
"The Revolution Will Not Be Outsourced."

#44
Swad

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Vlad-

Thanks for your well-reasoned and thoughtful post. Welcome to the forum.

I can understand wanting to make the problem known... however, the problem IS already known. These things take time to research, test, and develop fixes for, so that when a fix is finally released, it doesn't cause more problems.


Very true. But is it really expecting too much to seek a "Hey, we're working on it" kind of memo? I really don't think so. Plus, how do you know the problem is known and being worked on?

All the companies ask for is some patience, and Apple has been better than most at saying, "Okay, yeah. There's a problem, we're working on it."


I would be very happy if they did this. But, as of right now, they haven't.

On the flipside, Apple is also a huge media target. It seems like when Steve decides to go to the bathroom, it turns into a major news event. With that in mind, I can certainly comprehend wanting to wait until the facts are certain before making any statements or press releases, because we all know what happens when the facts get released, and later proven wrong. The company, no matter who it is, gets crucified by public opinion, largely by people who have no more comprehension of the true issue at hand than a tadpole could have of how to fly a jet fighter.


Agreed, they are a media target. But while they may get crucified by public opinion, they are also made saints in that same court of opinion. The reason Apple generally gets a favorable treatment in the press is because they pay attention to quality and detail. Is it too much to ask that they continue this? It seems that if they start getting bad press, it will be because they have let down their guard.

This 'call-in' day you are proposing is nothing short of childish.


Hmm... can't agree with you on this one. Most of the MBP owners I've talked to have been very patient with Apple and their replacements/fixes. Yet in many cases, the problems still go unaddressed. Is it childish to stand with other affected MBP owners and send a message at the same time? No, it just makes them be heard louder.

And you're right, it is an effort to get attention. At this point, we don't know that Apple has done anything to address these issues. At all. We haven't heard anything authoritative. All evidence actually points the contrary with denials and shoddy hacks abandoning.

You claim to be striking a blow for the Mac community. Well Mr. Mash, you are actually striking a blow against it by doing this.


I surely hope not - that's honestly my worst fear about this. However, the more I've thought about it, the more I realize this isn't the case.

Let's take the case of the Nano screens. It actually affected smaller population than the MBP issues, but users complained and Apple addressed the issue. If they wouldn't have said anything, nothing would have happened. It's the same here - if we don't speak up, nothing will get fixed.

And at this point you'll say "they can call on their own at their own timing." True. But they've been doing this for 3-4 months. Any word from Apple? None. They haven't taken it seriously up until now. We need to make sure they actually do.

Since past calls haven't done it, maybe this one will. I hope so.

The information gets to the engineers and designers either way, and if it all comes in at once, there's a higher chance that something critical may be missed, thus hurting the cause.


Or it helps them realize the magnitude of the problem. A tsunami is much more noticable than a few drops of rain.

"The Revolution Will Not Be Outsourced."


I hope it'll be fixed in house, but at this point, I'll take however we can get it. :)

#45
Colonel

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I was planning to get a Macbook Pro for school. Should I still call Applecare on the 20th? And since I don't have one yet, what should I say to them? If they ask me questions about it, I won't really be able to answer them. What should I say to them?

#46
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colonels1020 -

Call the Apple Store and ask them about the heat and whining issues. Ask them if anything has been done to fix it, etc.

That still lets them know you're concerned.

#47
liquidm3dia

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I'm in. Also I am starting this. The DNS has yet to resolve so use this for now

www.STOPTHEWHINE.com

I want to work with all the sites here, including OSX86Project. I want this issue fixed just like all of you.

#48
cbd2

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Just found this site because of the 'Whine Day' proposition that is certainly made some headlines on many Mac boards... and as the owner of three Intel Macs, this looks as if it could be a nice hang out.

But on to "End the Whine Day" - I have two MacBook Pros: one an early shipping 2.0GHz and the other a 2.16GHz that I received less than a month ago. Neither has any whine, moo, excessive heat (the hottest case point measured has been just above 105º - more than acceptable), nor have I experienced any other hardware problems... so I don't feel that I can, in good conscience, participate in calling Apple to complain on May 20th as my experiences have been, well, just routine - the machines operate as they should.

But for those who are having problems, it is a fine idea, I suppose, but I feel as if there should be a precise goal involved in the action - simply filling up Apple's phone lines (and being on hold for, potentially, hours) isn't going to be enough: Apple is more than aware of the problems that some users are experiencing and the problems have been mentioned in virtually all reviews that I've read, correctly pointing out that the problems are not inherent in all machines (to which I can attest). So what would I like to see were I the owner of a faulty machine? Pretty simple - a public statement from Apple (no WSJ or NYT full=page ad but a tech note, a mention that a particular software update "may alleviate X, a problem which some users are experiencing", a published list of 'within range' specifications (noise, temperatures, etc.), and a definitive statement that all units that have problems that exceed these specifications and that cannot be fixed via software or firmware updates will be repaired or replaced.

So what's the most that can be hoped for? Continued repair and replacement, to be sure (I've read of one user going through four units before getting one which was acceptable) but a bit more - a Knowledge Base article listing the problems, what is and is not 'within spec', updates which have been released to aid in alleviating the problems, and instructions on returning your computer to Apple for repair or replacement.

I think that - other than the problems themselves - the major beef has been a lack of acknowledgment of the problems from Apple. A KB article, and a link to that article (such is as done with faulty batteries, etc.) on Apple's Support page is, I think, the best that can be expected. My fear about the mainstream press picking up on the campaign is that it could result in faulty reporting that goes beyond implying that every MBP suffers from the whole gamut of whining, mooing, heat, etc., problems. One article I read today spoke of Apple's reputation as being the leader in making notebooks with 'exploding batteries' (a reference, I'm supposing, to the few batteries which caught fire in pre-release 5300 series notebooks - but a 'hot story' can be expanded into legend).

For those o you who join in the campaign, good luck: and I hope you don't have a long wait time. I won't be calling as I've no complaints and I'm hoping that there will be no calls from those who don't actually own problematic MBPs but simply 'know' that some users are having problems. We may never know the percentage of problem MBPs vs. those that are problem free - only those who have dealt with Apple would have been recorded - but I also fear that many are playing too many unnecessary guessing games regarding percentage to total sold, weeks of manufacture that are bad and those good, that replacing thermal grease will cure all heat problems, etc.

Apple hasn't helped rampant this speculation by remaining quiet. For those of you who raise your voice on the 20th, perhaps you'll get Apple talking.

#49
Swad

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Welcome to the forum, cbd2. Thanks for your post.

You're absolutely right - this isn't just about clogging phone lines. I think callers should ask a few specific questions:

1. Where on Apple's website can information be found about the heat and whine issues? If they say it's not up, ask why and request that it be posted.

2. Ask what solution they suggest while it is still under warranty.

Also, callers should also remember to be kind and considerate of the tech person on the other end... and also not take too much of their time.

Anything else we should consider?

#50
Swad

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Haha...

So I deleted MACPRO's posts because they were bascially just name calling instead of holding any kind of rational argument. Then the person who responded to their posts deleted his own posts. So I deleted this post which was originally in response. All within 3 minutes. Very odd time to try and mod. :thumbsdown_anim:

If you've got a logical point to make, feel free. If you register just flame, don't feel so free. :hysterical: Thanks.

We welcome discussion. Not flaming.

#51
MACPRO

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OK ill try this again.... I apologize for the previous post's

Calling Apple will only tie up the phone lines for people who actually need help, the reason I say that is if People who have this problem, would or should already be calling on a daily basis to getting the unit fixed. thus for one massive call in will only make more problems then getting things resolved.

Apple knows about this issue, I know for a fact. "How I know doesn't matter because you will think I am being bias to you, Which I am not." They are working on a resolution, and Thanks to the person who looked into there MBP and saw that there was too much thermo paste in it, so they take it off and then reapply a small amount. that is helping making the unit run a-lot cooler. a full 29 degrees cooler. to about 103-105 degree's

People dont need to void there warranty to get it fixed, thats why there is applecare, they can call tell them its whining very loud and they will take care of it.

It takes time to find out why things are happening and such, Things will get resolved, its a big leap for apple to go with intel, maybe they rushed it out too fast, but If you keep trying then things will get resolved. A mass call in will only make headaches for you and the agents. People are gonna be upset because of long hold times and they are gonna get angry and vulgar with the tech agents.

#52
MACPRO

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also, contradictory to popular belief Apple Notebooks are not meant to be used on your lap. We all know they are made of aluminum, which conducts heat. Dells and Hp's are of a hard plastic, which does not really conduct heat. Which with the current heat problem really doesn't help. But apple will take the unit and reduce the thermo paste which will reduce the heat.

So that is why it is said they are not Lap tops but notebooks.

#53
badg2k

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also, contradictory to popular belief Apple Notebooks are not meant to be used on your lap. We all know they are made of aluminum, which conducts heat. Dells and Hp's are of a hard plastic, which does not really conduct heat. Which with the current heat problem really doesn't help. But apple will take the unit and reduce the thermo paste which will reduce the heat.

So that is why it is said they are not Lap tops but notebooks.


But even with the change in name shouldn't I be able to even hold it to move it from one desk to another like a "notebook" if you want to play the specific name game. I almost dropped mine because of the heat. And apple will not fix your whine. I tried to take it to the apple store in SoHo and they denied everything. Calling apple tech does bother tech support and apple, but it also makes this problem a priority for them. Maybe they'll put more man power into this issue instead of some other project. They are aware of the problem, but they are not aware of the immediacy and severity of the issue.

#54
Swad

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Macpro -

Thanks for your post. Much better. :thumbsdown_anim:

The problem is that we have no proof that they're doing anything. If you can produce the proof, we'll examine it. Until then, we have nothing. One of the main issues here is that they won't even acknowledge the issue.

badg2k is also right. They may know about the issue, but the sheer volume of calls will reinforce that it's not something they can take their time on. Fixing this hasn't been a priority, but it needs to be.

#55
MACPRO

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I agree with you, if you move it from one desk to a table you should be able to grab it with out it being so hot where you have to drop it or set it down.

I don't know who you talked to, but if you don't like the whine noise, just say so to tech support over the phone and at the soho store" which is one of the busiest stores in the retail chain", But they will fix it or at-least have it mailed in to be looked at to see if its within spec. IF it buzzes very loud, or whines, it could get repaired.
Heck I saw one that the wife said she heard a high pitch sound, that her husband nor I heard "women have a higher decibel range" thats why she could hear it and she wouldn't use the computer. Turn the brightness off it goes away, turn it on it came back. It got repaired.

And im not playing a name game, the same thing goes for the powerbooks and the Ibooks, though the ibook is made of a plastic., which also has a smaller ghz cpu so it doesn't produce as much heat, but concept is the same.



And mash. It is a priority for them, they are working on it, it takes time.Sorry cant give you proof. even if i could you couldn't have access or get access to it.

I mean, you guys can call in, thats what tech support is there for, but its gonna do two things, make wait times very very long and make some customers very very angry.



Off topic?
Dont know if you would know mash
will the os x 86 for intel work on amd xp cpu with SSE, to get mac os x on that Amd chip?

#56
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Apple will fix the whine issue, at least they did for me, so i would enourage everyone still experiencing whining to call applecare before the 20th and see what they say. If they refuse to help then thats what the 20th is for, but if you make clear that the whining is a problem chances are they will repair it for you.

#57
Azurael

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I won't be joining you, since my stock 2.0GHz MBP has been silent and cool since the day I owned it (I bought it in early April from the Apple Store Regent St.)

My 1.25GHz 15" PowerBook has made annoying and very noticable fizzling noises (louder than the HD seeking, though I have a quiet Samsung HD) from the internal speakers (even with external speakers plugged in) when the power supply was connected ever since I first bought it at the end of 2003 though. I don't know if I'm the only one but it happens with all three of the 65W PSUs I tried and even the 45W PSU from my old 12" PowerBook, and it doesn't matter whether the cable is earthed to the grounding pin on the PSU or not (I tried that since my old 12" PB hummed when using a non earthed connection like the plugtop adapter).

The Mac Genius I went to see said Apple won't do anything about it, since it's not an impediment to the function of the computer. Figures, I guess.

I've not heard a 'whining' MBP, though it has to be said I've only seen a few beside my own - is it really that severe that you can't live with it? I bet the Dell equivalent would have at least double the irritating noises and badly isolated circuits leading to noise from the speakers and cheap components leading to noise from other components, like the inverter (from experience of X86 Notebooks... It seems IBM were the only people who built them properly. I bet Lenovo don't...) and the casing would crack if you put a feather on top of it (like my old Inspiron 2650. Last Dell I buy :angel:)

#58
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The whining noise is sinificantly worse than the inverter buzz in terms of pitch and amplitude - it's like nails on a chalkboard!

#59
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I agree with a previous poster that only people with problems should call Apple. I also have 3 Macbooks at work, (2 2 GHz and my own 2.16 GHz), and I have no whine, moo, cows or heat. My temperature was 64 Celcius after running the yes thing for 2 hours non stop.

I wonder how many "real" people have Macbooks in this thread, especially since osx86project.org is really more of a "run OSX on a PC site" than a Mac site.

Don't you think it's a little rude to organize a "Whine day" against Apple when this site actively teaches and discusses how to run OSX on cheap boxes? Are you sure you like Apple and the Macs?

Flame on...

PS: All CoreDuo laptops whine when idle. Deactivate Speedstep in either Windows XP or MacOS X, loose 20 minutes of battery life and be happy. Plus that by deactivating Speedstep you have a 30% faster machine, even when MacBook Pro runs on adapter with high performance settings is 30% faster with out Speedstep.

#60
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I wonder how many "real" people have Macbooks in this thread, especially since osx86project.org is really more of a "run OSX on a PC site" than a Mac site.


Quite a few - many of those people just ran OS X on their PC since it wasn't out on Intel yet. Many are buying them or are planning to.

Don't you think it's a little rude to organize a "Whine day" against Apple when this site actively teaches and discusses how to run OSX on cheap boxes? Are you sure you like Apple and the Macs?


No, it's not rude to ask a company to fulfill a promise to their customers. And yes, of course we like Apple and OS X - if we didn't, you wouldn't have this forum to flamebait. Hmmm... :)





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