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It isn't clear why, as you say 'There's no doubt that running OS X on your PC is illegal'.

 

Violating the Eula is not illegal. It is not against the law in any jurisdiction in the OECD to violate a Eula, or any other sort of civil contract for that matter.

 

If you do not install your copy of OSX on more than one machine, you have broken no law. If you do install it on more than one machine, you have violated copyright, and that is illegal.

 

To use your legally obtained copy of OSX in ways that the maker sought to prohibit by post sales restrictions on its use is not even going to give rise to grounds for civil action. In no jurisdiction are post sales restrictions on use enforceable. In fact, in most OECD jurisdictions, and specifically in the EU, the attempt to impose post sales restrictions on use on grounds other than health and safety will be itself unlawful and anti competitive.

 

Microsoft cannot, for instance, prohibit you from running Office on Linux, if that is what takes your fancy.

 

Now we come to the DCMA. It is not clear to me that if you have bought a copy of OSX and then do things to it for the sole purpose of running it on a different computer, you are doing something illegal. Perhaps you have some source of legal advice, or some cases, which show this. If so, one would be interested to see postings.

 

Until then, my view is that to copy OSX in violation of copyright is illegal, but as long as you do not do that, you are probably within the law.

Yes it is theft. You stole an item that you could have very well paid for. It's just like stealing a physical item.

 

*insert loose morals comment here*

 

Good i don't mind stealing from a rich company so i don't care

At the end of the day, apple has gained from OS X 86 because its allowing an explosion in their marketshare.

Lets be honest, if a leak never happenend, would you even consider to buy an apple computer?

 

Eactly. Everybody needs to can the moral {censored}. I would gladly buy OSX for my pc if they sold it, oh well.

Guest Guest: SemjaZa_*

Apple should just start preparing for os x on pcs, I doubt they will be able to stop all hacking with new hardware locks in the kernel + more encrypted apps etc, so why not earn money on it?

 

Even the whole TPM concept is hilarious - anyone with a devkit can decrypt easily with a little knowledge...

 

There has even been a successfull test of a TPM emulator, tho - the kernel must be protected if running updates... I can not however, reveal the whereabouts of this emu - or who might have it and its not released, but I have seen it in action. There has been a debate about releasing it that resulted in a no for some reason...

 

And there are also projects like boomerang, that aims to reverse engineer asm to C code, and companies that do such for a living, though the current version of boomerang doesnt compile on intel macs without a bit of work... once this app or something like its up and running well on macs- the sources for the kernel, all encrypted apps etc - will be around... does work on windows tho - but then the symbols arent retrieved from the symbol stub section....

 

My point is - the number of tools to hack apples os with, and the knowledge will keep on groing - I doubt this big a community of users wont want to keep on tangling with the OS, its become a sport...

if it isnt illegal then it isnt fun!

 

we do it for sport ppl, we love to tweak our computerst test it to be as perfect as posible, and when we reach that objective, we just upgrade and start all over.

 

we are just geeks having fun ;)

I think that its actuailly good for them because we are basicially doing all the work of porting it over, highlighting all the problems, showing them all the security flaws, beta testing theyre stuff on a hodge podge of hardware, giving them free advertisments, buying theyre software, and promoting osx... i dont run it and i hate apple tho....... but thats personal, lol. and besides, people break the law all the time, thats why theres hacks, cracks, warez, and drug dealers (all bad btw, and dangerous) seriously, idk ne one who follows anywhere close to all the laws.... dcma, thats the same one that says i cant make fairplay copys of my dvds because i have to bypass theyre crapp ass drm... but i do it ne ways

 

 

max

  • 2 weeks later...
Now we come to the DCMA. It is not clear to me that if you have bought a copy of OSX and then do things to it for the sole purpose of running it on a different computer, you are doing something illegal. Perhaps you have some source of legal advice, or some cases, which show this. If so, one would be interested to see postings.

 

Until then, my view is that to copy OSX in violation of copyright is illegal, but as long as you do not do that, you are probably within the law.

 

Unfortunately in the US, any action a person takes to deliberately circumvent a copy protection scheme is considered an offense (short version minus loopholes and other legal-ese). Check out more here

 

Furthermore using tools to decrypt information which is encrypted and to which you do not have appropriate authorization can be a felony in many cases (regardless of the owner of the content).

 

All in all I think we're quite clear on the issue, at least for US citizens. And, by and large, the majority of the people who frequent the board may be subject to US law due to extradition treaties etc (as seen in the extradition of one known hacker and one known spammer from the UK to the US recently). Would Apple take it to that extreme? I think not.

 

Here's why. First, they might be interested in those people who are responsible for leaked versions of internal software. They're most certainly interested in people who might be making money off of these leaked softwares, or cracked versions. They're also interested in people with whom they have immediate contact and can reprimand or punish with relative ease (i.e. the fired employees who could've technically been sued or possibly charged with crimes persuant to the laws mentioned above). For the rest of us, it would take quite an effort for Apple to "come after us." The relatively low number of us, combined with the fact that the majority of us are actual Apple customers to one extent or another seems to also mitigate Apple's interest in chasing us down.

 

I think the real "nail in the coffin" is that there's nothing to get here (from a legal standpoint). As many people have argued in countless posts, cracking the OS, hacking CD Keys, and circumventing any copy protection scheme will always be the way of the internet. Apple cannot hope to stop it, and the RIAA proves that the "sue 'em all" strategy doesn't really produce the results. Add that to the fact that many of the people participate here because they "cannot afford a 'real' mac" and Apple would not recieve any compensation from this bunch (certainly not going to get anything if they sue me... well... maybe a couple coffee mugs.... and a couple burned out EDO-DIMMS).

 

 

 

Morally, it's a much more slippery slope. I take OSX86 as a side project to occupy some free time, challenge me to learn a bit more about how the Mac Kernel works, and as a sign of my "nerdy loyalty" to Macs in that I'll even run my OSX on a PC if I can. There are several things we've mentioned that have to be put aside from a legal standpoint in order to allow me to continue with my participation. However, from a moral standpoint, I can only speak for myself. Since the computers I run OSX86 on cannot legally run Mac OSX, and they were already purchased (therefore in no way influence my current buying habits or tendencies) I cannot say that it is immoral to participate. However, thinking theoretically on a larger scale, I can see that there might be a certain number of sales lost to people who feel comfortable with their OSX86 setup and have chosen not to purchase Apple equipment because of that. By and large, I imagine the opposite is true in that people whet their appetite with OSX86 and then eventually buy a Mac system to get the benefits of a genuine Apple product. I bring all this up, because when talking about morality as it regards my obligations to some independant company, monitarily is the only way I can evaluate the relative morality of the decisions.

 

Economically I think OSX86 has such a small impact on Apple at this time as to be irrelevant. Over the long run that could change. How? If OSX86 project finds a workaround to the EFI and TPM situation, then it creates a very large problem for Apple. If Apple has issues with either EFI or TPM over the longer-run (like Intel stops supporting EFI because Microsoft balks on the idea eventually), what is Apples "back-up" plan to keep the OS secure?

 

There are more concerns, but I think I've rambled on enough at this point.

  • 2 weeks later...

The legislature of every country in the world is littered with laws which are universally ignored because people just don't think they're sensible. Even the law-enforcers ignore many of them and few police officers want to go through the hassle and potential ridicule for trying to charge you with some of them. There are internet sites full of the crazy restrictions which have never been removed from the statute books. Just as an example, in Britain it's still technically an offence - contrary to common law - to have sex with someone you haven't married. The same applies in some US states. Jeez, we'd all be locked up if they enforced that one...

 

Did you drive a car today? Did you always stick below the speed limit? No? Why not? Because you reasoned that you were not hurting anyone, you were driving appropriately for the conditions and not putting anyone at risk. The fact is that our view of the law, and our morals, are tempered by what we consider to be common sense. OSx86 is viewed by many of our members in the same light.

There's a law still on the books in my hometown of Portsmouth, VA (founded in 1712 so that should tell you something) that says:

 

"It is illegal to allow a beast of burden to consume alcoholic beverages past the midnight hour on the full moon of the 3rd week of any calendar month."

 

Seriously.

 

Decrypted, it means it's against the law to get a horse/donkey drunk if the moon is full and it's past the 21st of the month...

 

I mean really, those old timers were certainly doped up on something to create such ridiculous legistlation, doncha think? :pirate2:

 

bb

  • 3 weeks later...

Here is how I feel about this whole thing. Personally, If you are downloading the OS just for personal, non-business (and I MEAN non-business) use, then it is completely fine. If you are using this OS for ANY reason other than to mess around with it in your locked room, then it should be off to prison for you. Also, if EVERYONE found getting OSx86 for their personal sheltered testing use so bad, then this forum shouldn't even exist, since this forum only fosters our DESIRE for this OS even more. Apple Computer just needs to relook at the BIG picture and see if it really is such a big deal that somebody goofs off with it just to see how it can work with a PC.

 

Just my thought on it.

 

Guru

I think that id agree with guru except that you should add to be able to test an os for a whial and the ohter clause is that you should most definately go buy it if you have enough money to be able to or have the option to in the firstplace (im talkin bout you osx lol)

 

 

max

But is OSx86 right?

I think we should all pull away from our desks for one minute: take a look around you and point me to a single object in your room which was not aquired from a corporation. Even simple things like Kleenex tissues and pencils were made and sold to you by a huge corporation. Now look and your fridge and ask yourself the same question: things like staples such as milk, bread, eggs and the such were also provided to you by a corporation. Than make your budget and see how much money you get from corporations and how much money you give to a corporation: your cell phone bill, your phone bill, utilities, car payments, credit cards .... just about everything you pay is to a corporation and you also probably get paid by a huge corporation.

 

Freakin corporations have taken over every god darn aspects of our lives.

 

Then if you are a diabetic, you probably spend at least 400$/month on meds ... right?

Of course, your corporate pharmaceutical company probably told you that the high cost oof meds is attributed to the huge amount of research they make toward diabetese.

 

But there is one basic flaw with this thinking: the pharmaceutical corporation that manufactures your meds at exorbitant prices gets 400$/month of cash flow from you every month. There are at least an other million diabetics like you in North America alone. That is 400$ million/month flowing toward that corporation.

Now if their "research" department comes up with a une time one pill that can cure your diabetese, they will effectively terminate their 400 million/month cash cow ...... how likely do you think they will find a cure?

In truth, corporations are conspirering with our lives on a daily basis in return for a bottom line.

 

Do I feel bad for sticking it to corporate Apple or corporate Bill Gates?

F@#k no!

 

If these guys really cared about progress, they would make their applications open sources like Linux.

I think that id agree with guru except that you should add to be able to test an os for a whial and the ohter clause is that you should most definately go buy it if you have enough money to be able to or have the option to in the firstplace (im talkin bout you osx lol)

max

 

Great point there Max! Thank you!

 

Guru

I also say that no matter what you do. Sharing this file is illegal and violates my ISP's Acceptable Use Policy, the Canadian law, Apple EULA and others not to mention the violation of modify apple's code to make it run. Even if you go out and get a dev license, buy a developer's machine it's still illegal.

 

I do see how it would seem morally right to buy mac os x when you can after downloading it, but it's still illegal but if you feel more right then go and buy it.

The legislature of every country in the world is littered with laws which are universally ignored because people just don't think they're sensible. Even the law-enforcers ignore many of them and few police officers want to go through the hassle and potential ridicule for trying to charge you with some of them. There are internet sites full of the crazy restrictions which have never been removed from the statute books. Just as an example, in Britain it's still technically an offence - contrary to common law - to have sex with someone you haven't married. The same applies in some US states. Jeez, we'd all be locked up if they enforced that one...

 

Did you drive a car today? Did you always stick below the speed limit? No? Why not? Because you reasoned that you were not hurting anyone, you were driving appropriately for the conditions and not putting anyone at risk. The fact is that our view of the law, and our morals, are tempered by what we consider to be common sense. OSx86 is viewed by many of our members in the same light.

Thumbs up to you Metrogirl!

Just try to imagine an internet full of open source applications .... basically an internet with less corporate profits and better software.

This is what the internet should have been but it is not ... why?

Because of ridiculous copyright laws aimed at protecting powerfull corporations such as MS and Aple against common sense.

We all agree that Linux is better by far then Windoze, don't we?

So why is it that Windoze is so popular then? It's more popular because of the propaganda around it, because of the copyright laws aimed at protecting Wondoze against common sense, basically, Windoze and Mac was force feed to us and all this due to copyight laws.

Copyright laws are rather ridiculous when you think about it, did you know that there are plans to copyright virtually every person's DNA sequence? Believe it or not, it's true and this would effectively place the ownership of our lives into corporate hands.

I know it sound faschist and ridiculous but it would have sounded equally faschist and ridiculous o think 60 years ago that the average citizen would pay 50cent on the dollar in taxes and that the average citizen would be scared {censored}less of Saddam Hussein, a meaninless sand box dictator half way across the globe.

 

Today, the average citizen is scared that some shadowy terrorist is going to bomb us, that we might end up paying more than the average 50% in taxes (but we will) and that anything other than Windoze, Mac and Norton is just not acceptable.

 

How did we get so stupid?

- Copyright laws are part of the answer, propaganda is an other part of that answer, corporate powers over laws is yet an other part of that answer.

 

Yes, downloading OSX86 might very well e illegal, that doesn't make it wrong tho....

Those copyright laws (and there are a {censored}load of them around us) are implemented to force feed us corporate goods instead of the better, more efficient open source free stuff.

 

Just go out and study TCP for a second, they are litterally trying to force us to use whatever applications they want us to use, they are gaining control over what we do on our machines.

 

If their product was really that good, they would not need copyright laws and closed sources, they could make all that available to us and still make a good profit. Take a look at Grisoft and AVG for example: they produce the best anti-virus on the net and they do it all for free ... and still manage to make some money.

 

How did they do it? They made a good product instead of hiding behind copyright laws.

Without copyright laws, Bill Gates and his over priced, over popular {censored} would be out on the curb and we all know this to be true.

Apple's hardware is over priced, they need copyright laws to make us pay for that over priced {censored} because without those copyright laws, they too would be out on the curb.

I just though about something.

I remember reading somewhere that the OSx86Project was originally from Apple which set up a team of programmers to see if their OS could be made to run on a PC and this is how OSx86 was born.

The project was dropped and the resulting software was leaked out.

 

Now, I don't know about you all but I think this is rather suspicious: why would they come almost all the way to suscess and drop the whole project?

 

Something tells me this 'leak' was intentionnal, that maybe they want people to try it while still feeling guilty about it in hopes to bring in more customers.

 

Things don't get 'leaked out' when they are dealing with potentially millions of $ in possible losses or gains.

  • 2 weeks later...
However, Apple can go to court and say "He's hacking our OS. We dont want him to do that. We aslo want damages done - he now knows internal secrets of the OS.

 

(...)

 

You mean the Open Sourced kernel? And what about people that have a copy of Mac OS X outside USA? ...EULAs are ridiculous.

 

Apple should just start preparing for os x on pcs, I doubt they will be able to stop all hacking with new hardware locks in the kernel + more encrypted apps etc, so why not earn money on it?

 

Even the whole TPM concept is hilarious - anyone with a devkit can decrypt easily with a little knowledge...

 

There has even been a successfull test of a TPM emulator, tho - the kernel must be protected if running updates... I can not however, reveal the whereabouts of this emu - or who might have it and its not released, but I have seen it in action. There has been a debate about releasing it that resulted in a no for some reason...

 

And there are also projects like boomerang, that aims to reverse engineer asm to C code, and companies that do such for a living, though the current version of boomerang doesnt compile on intel macs without a bit of work... once this app or something like its up and running well on macs- the sources for the kernel, all encrypted apps etc - will be around... does work on windows tho - but then the symbols arent retrieved from the symbol stub section....

 

My point is - the number of tools to hack apples os with, and the knowledge will keep on groing - I doubt this big a community of users wont want to keep on tangling with the OS, its become a sport...

 

do you even remember that the kernel of OS X is open?

not to mention the violation of modify apple's code to make it run

 

Not that I am trying to defend OSX86, obviously that would be the biggest mistake in Apple's history, and is not even an option for the company, but I totally think THAT is {censored}.

 

Look here, you install ShapeShifter, you're modifying Apple's code. Is that illegal? No! It's listed on Apple's web site!

 

There's an extent in which to go to.

 

As for OSX86, why are you guys even thinking if Apple would do this? It would not only simply destroy the company, it would ruin their reputation, well-come on! They did it once, and that was a huge part of the mid-90's Apple failure!

 

They're not stupid enough to make the same mistake twice-and anyone who thinks they are needs to seriously rethink the way they think.

Personally, I would LOVE to buy a mac. I like what they build, the research they put into their products and the quality at which they construct their machines. However for as long as I've been into computers it has not only been a software side but a hardware as well. I always build computers from parts of my choosing inorder for me to tweak everylast ounce of power from it. Screwing with ram timings, overclocking the processor, messing with settings, watercooling, all of that stuff. I can't get that with a mac. A 2,000 computer that I'd build and tweak would compete with a mac many times it's price and being the buck hugging nut that I'm I couldn't justify spending that much. For me to go and buy a $600 mini-mac and hook it up to a KVM switch doesn't seem to reward a great OS that Tiger is. I will say if Apple ever does sell a legal OSX86 I will buy it.

I think it's time for a 'the hackintosh karma project'. Maybe this site, or something like osx86project, can host a donation button we can all dump, say, 10 bucks in. The money can then go to a good (politically neutral) cause like aids research or, ofcourse, we could use it to buy the programmers at apple random thinkgeek swag - because those are the people that have been working so hard to give us the OS we all love so much.

 

I personally feel kinda bad for stealing OSX, and in the spirit of karma, would certainly donate some of the cash that apple isn't willing to take from me through legal channels to a good cause.

 

Any thoughts?

Donate to the iAnnoyance challenge, if you're going to donate to anything, and maybe that will convince me to do the other half of the work I'll have to do to make that desktop icon managment software. =P

Really all teh gurus and the brilliant ppl of this forums are buying Macs, everyone who have tried OSx on their PCs will now on try to buy a mac, iminclined myself and my cousinhave just buyed one bacause i convinced him, so is apple winning from us?, i will say yes, because we are tech savy ppl wich makes help other ppl make tech buying descisions.

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