What is the one true faith (or lack thereof)?

[cyrana]

Why does there have to be some greater 'reason' for our existence? We just are... Everything dies, it's just the way it goes.

[gwprod12]

EDIT: Responding to MR_PROJECTS:

That is a logical fallacy.

 

Because everything came from something, it couldnt spring into existence, right? Where did God come from? If he was not created by something else, then the entire logic breaks down. If God was created by something else, then God isnt ultimate.

 

If you believe in God, great. But God isnt a good answer for why.

 

"God must have done it". Why did it HAVE to be God?

[mr_projects]

The answer to "who created god" question does not even make sense. It is like asking, "What does blue smell like?" Blue is not in the category of things that have odor, so the question itself is flawed. In the same way, God is not in the category of things that are created, or come into existence, or are caused. God is uncaused and uncreated - He simply exists.

 

Also, if the created thing must come from something else, then it must come from something that exists prior to it. If I look at all the created things as a whole, they must come from a non-created thing, or it won't stop and would mean that the sequence of creations is eternal, so coming from a non-created thing is the only logical option open to me..

 

So knowing that, I would conclude that the first creator is not created; He is eternal. He is the one who brought time, space, and matter into existence. Since the concept of causality deals with space, time, and matter, and since God being the creator is the one who brought space, time, and matter into existence, the concept of causality does not apply to God since it is something related to the reality of space, time, and matter. Since God is before space, time, and matter, the issue of causality does not apply to Him. Therefore a non-created thing would have to exist outside space, time and matter altogether. Expecting that non-created thing to never change because, being outside time for instance, it is the same at its beginning, its middle, and its end. A non-created thing must necessarily be eternal.

 

That makes sense to me, If anyone has a different explanation I really would like to know, because I couldn't find any other logical explanation.

 

Thanks

[killbot1000]

The answer to "who created god" question does not even make sense. It is like asking, "What does blue smell like?" Blue is not in the category of things that have odor, so the question itself is flawed. In the same way, God is not in the category of things that are created, or come into existence, or are caused. God is uncaused and uncreated - He simply exists.

 

Also, if the created thing must come from something else, then it must come from something that exists prior to it. If I look at all the created things as a whole, they must come from a non-created thing, or it won't stop and would mean that the sequence of creations is eternal, so coming from a non-created thing is the only logical option open to me..

 

So knowing that, I would conclude that the first creator is not created; He is eternal. He is the one who brought time, space, and matter into existence. Since the concept of causality deals with space, time, and matter, and since God being the creator is the one who brought space, time, and matter into existence, the concept of causality does not apply to God since it is something related to the reality of space, time, and matter. Since God is before space, time, and matter, the issue of causality does not apply to Him. Therefore a non-created thing would have to exist outside space, time and matter altogether. Expecting that non-created thing to never change because, being outside time for instance, it is the same at its beginning, its middle, and its end. A non-created thing must necessarily be eternal.

 

That makes sense to me, If anyone has a different explanation I really would like to know, because I couldn't find any other logical explanation.

 

Thanks

 

 

Well, I find it funny how you call god a HE even though a being of that magnitude wouldnt need to be a certain sex. My answer is one of uncertainty, I just...Dont know, so I dont assume, however throughout human history science has found the answers for things we used to think the gods caused, wind, for example. I think the universe is just an extension of that, we just dont know, and we probably wont know for a long time, but I do feel there is a logical explanation involved that doesnt relate to god, something that 1000 years from now people are going to look back on us and think "did they really believe that god caused that?" like we look at people 1000 years ago. Its just beyond our scope right now, but pretty much everything has been proven to have a logical explanation, it just takes time to figure it out. Jumping to the conclusion of god is premature, and its what's caused a lot of problems in our society, the middle ages for example, people were indoctrinated with the idea that god does everything...its really kind of scary when you get down to it. And if you think that spouting a bunch of technobabble makes you smart...it doesnt, it just makes regular people unable to understand you. Sorry if I'm being harsh but honestly, your logic doesnt make any sense

[gwprod12]

It's clearly a logical issue.

 

Posit: "God created the universe"

Explanation: "Since everything existing now has it's origin in something else, the origin cannot have been created from nothing. Everything has a creator, therefor God must have created it"

Argument: "If everything must have sprung from something else, so too must God have."

Explanation: "If the universe must have sprung from something else, than the universe's creator must have sprung from something else too. That the Universe sprang into being, caused by something outside of itself, is not proof in the existence of an ultimate entity or force"

 

No one in the scientific community claims that the moment of the universe's creation (The Big Bang) is necessarily the origin. "The Big Bang" is simply the furthest back into the universe's existence that can currently be probed.

 

EDIT: Maybe I need to be more clear:

 

If everything requires a creator, then God is not exempt.

[asap18]

In my faith, Judaism, we rather believe that G-d is not a certain sex or definable being but rather something like the "force" for all you Jedi people that keeps the universe going. However G-d has concealed himself from our range of thought as if people knew for a fact that there was a G-d then how could faith exist and our human nature would not be tested to determine our character and place in the next world. In other words, you can bicker all you want about not being able to find the facts for G-d purposely hid from us.

[OryHara]

Oryhara, are you talking about Billy Graham the evangelist?

Yes. Billy Graham. He is like a modern Paul, or John.

[killbot1000]

In my faith, Judaism, we rather believe that G-d is not a certain sex or definable being but rather something like the "force" for all you Jedi people that keeps the universe going. However G-d has concealed himself from our range of thought as if people knew for a fact that there was a G-d then how could faith exist and our human nature would not be tested to determine our character and place in the next world. In other words, you can bicker all you want about not being able to find the facts for G-d purposely hid from us.

 

 

 

and you know this how? Your family told you when you were growing up? Had you not grown up in Judaism, you would believe something else, so really your argument is still not valid...

 

Am I missing something here? Am I completely off the mark somewhere?

[bwhsh8r]

They are all guesses because death and what happens after is the one thing that the human brain will never be able to know about and be able to comprehend, that is why religion is arround, because you have to have something to explain what happens after death because when we are asleep we are still contience... so there is no way of telling until it happens to you and you die. that is why i dont really pay attention to to many religions (im lutheran and i go to a catholic highschool, but i really dont like alot of the teachings of the catholic church)

 

 

max

[killbot1000]

They are all guesses because death and what happens after is the one thing that the human brain will never be able to know about and be able to comprehend, that is why religion is arround, because you have to have something to explain what happens after death because when we are asleep we are still contience... so there is no way of telling until it happens to you and you die. that is why i dont really pay attention to to many religions (im lutheran and i go to a catholic highschool, but i really dont like alot of the teachings of the catholic church)

max

 

 

Yeah...maybe im a freak, but I dont care about what happens to me when I die, ill find out when I die, its not eating me up or anything inside, heheh just FWI im an atheist, and really the way I look on it is that this life is the only one I have FOR SURE, so why waste my life talking about what happens to me after I die, when in reality nothing may happen. I just think church is a freakin waste of time, but heheh thats just me, if it works for somebody, I say go for it, but ah...I dunno, I just dont see how anybody can be as sure as they are, given the lack of evidence to support an afterlife

[bwhsh8r]

Yeah...maybe im a freak, but I dont care about what happens to me when I die, ill find out when I die, its not eating me up or anything inside, heheh just FWI im an atheist, and really the way I look on it is that this life is the only one I have FOR SURE, so why waste my life talking about what happens to me after I die, when in reality nothing may happen. I just think church is a freakin waste of time, but heheh thats just me, if it works for somebody, I say go for it, but ah...I dunno, I just dont see how anybody can be as sure as they are, given the lack of evidence to support an afterlife

 

 

I totially agree with you, that and alot of churches say that all sins are forgiven and if you want to get in you can get in, so if there is, and im staring a god in the face, then ill just say that i want in! ahahh, gotta love that

 

 

 

max

[killbot1000]

I totially agree with you, that and alot of churches say that all sins are forgiven and if you want to get in you can get in, so if there is, and im staring a god in the face, then ill just say that i want in! ahahh, gotta love that

max

 

 

Yeah hahah, totally.

[james2mart]

Most christianity-based religions that say all sins are forgiven base it on bible verses like "If you confess with your tongue 'Jesus is Lord', and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. Not of works, lest any man should boast." When you die, you will have no tongue or heart.

[killbot1000]

Most christianity-based religions that say all sins are forgiven base it on bible verses like "If you confess with your tongue 'Jesus is Lord', and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. Not of works, lest any man should boast." When you die, you will have no tongue or heart.

 

 

Well, that makes a whole lot of sense (sarcasm). Seriously, screw christianity, Ive never understood how somebody who does something for a reward gets into heaven and the person who does something for the sake of it being the "right" thing to do goes to hell, only for not believing. I dont care what religion youre from, thats just...wrong...

[bwhsh8r]

Well, that makes a whole lot of sense (sarcasm). Seriously, screw christianity, Ive never understood how somebody who does something for a reward gets into heaven and the person who does something for the sake of it being the "right" thing to do goes to hell, only for not believing. I dont care what religion youre from, thats just...wrong...

 

 

 

thats true... and besides the Catholic school i go to says its a state of mind.... witch i dont get because when i die ill probly not be using my mind for much except bug bait.... idk, i guess illl just find out when i die? I mean, like, I think its really cool that people beleve in religion and can be so dedicated to that, its just not my bag man....

 

 

 

max

[james2mart]

Ive never understood how somebody who does something for a reward gets into heaven and the person who does something for the sake of it being the "right" thing to do goes to hell, only for not believing.

You cannot assume that everyone that becomes a Christian does it for the reward. To be honest, it happens alot and preachers like to use scare tactics like that, but thats not true in every case. Believing that everyone does it simply to get into heaven is stereotyping. Christians are supposed to have a life that is dedicated to Jesus Christ. We are supposed to have an attitude like Christ. But no one is perfect and we will mess up.

 

Everyone makes the argument, "Well I don't see how a loving God can send people to hell for eternity." What they don't realize is that God is not just a loving God, but he is also jealous and he is just. The verse that says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life." explains that. If a man commits treason in a kingdom, he is either killed or banished, and the king that banished him was not perfect, but could still be a loving king. The king knows that even if the man that committed treason was his best friend, he would still have to follow through with the punishment, because it would not be fair to other people.

 

The whole point of this is that Salvation is a gift of God. Anyone can accept it, and it comes with no strings attached.

 

Seriously, screw christianity

This is debate, not christian-bashing, dude. you need to chill out. Just because I disagree with Islam and Judaism doesn't mean I tell them to go eff themselves. Learn to actually respect other people's beliefs and maybe they will start to respect yours.

[killbot1000]

You cannot assume that everyone that becomes a Christian does it for the reward. To be honest, it happens alot and preachers like to use scare tactics like that, but thats not true in every case. Believing that everyone does it simply to get into heaven is stereotyping. Christians are supposed to have a life that is dedicated to Jesus Christ. We are supposed to have an attitude like Christ. But no one is perfect and we will mess up.

 

Everyone makes the argument, "Well I don't see how a loving God can send people to hell for eternity." What they don't realize is that God is not just a loving God, but he is also jealous and he is just. The verse that says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life." explains that. If a man commits treason in a kingdom, he is either killed or banished, and the king that banished him was not perfect, but could still be a loving king. The king knows that even if the man that committed treason was his best friend, he would still have to follow through with the punishment, because it would not be fair to other people.

 

The whole point of this is that Salvation is a gift of God. Anyone can accept it, and it comes with no strings attached.

This is debate, not christian-bashing, dude. you need to chill out. Just because I disagree with Islam and Judaism doesn't mean I tell them to go eff themselves. Learn to actually respect other people's beliefs and maybe they will start to respect yours.

 

 

your analogy of the king banishing the friend isnt accurate, the friend committed treason, thats BAD, a more accurate analogy would be that the friend told the king that one of his decisions didnt seem right, and maybe he should think about it, so then the king banishes him.

 

And again, WHY believe in jesus??? What does it matter if he's the son of god or not, why does that matter? isnt it the message that counts? And wheres the proof that jesus was the son of god? besides the bible, its just not there...

 

I do respect christianity...to an extent...but its hard to respect any religion that promotes ignorance...

 

How does it promote ignorance?

 

People in most religions are taught to believe, even in the mountain of evidence to support the opposite, to make that "leap" of faith, as if thats a good thing? Seriously, if the religion is valid in the slightest, it can withstand a few questions and maintain its integrity, but christianity cant, it falls apart like a house of cards if you try to argue with somebody about it on a logical playing field. Other religions have the same problem, but ive only had "convert now or go to hell" speeches from christians, so my view is tainted a little more negatively toward christianity, and for that im sorry. But seriously, my speech is just inflammatory on purpose, im actually quite a tolerant person, but...this is a mac forum, and I dont have time to lay out 16 paragraph arguments, so i say stupid things like "screw christianity" to get people like you a little flustered, and my feelings at the time, even though I have facts to back up my feelings.

 

 

Id like to use a favorite quote of mine to illustrate my point:

 

"philosophy is questions that may never be answered, Religion is answers that may NEVER be questioned"

 

Seriously, to cap off my point, if a religion is valid, it can withstand a few questions, and thats all I have to say about it, and in my opinion, it has not held up well at all...

[james2mart]

OK killbot, what religion do you think is most valid? Out of your list in the poll, Christianity is the most historically accurate.

 

IMHO, atheism takes more faith than Christianity. With atheism you have to look at everything in the galaxy and believe that it was created by chance. You have to believe that the big bang (which, by the way, had some odds like 1 in 10^53 of happening and most scientists believe anything with less odds than 1 in 10^52 is impossible) actually happened. You have to believe that you are created from single-cell organisms that weren't even mammals. You have to believe that there is no greater being than you. You have to believe, that BY CHANCE, the earth is far enough from the sun to keep us from burning, and close enough to keep us from freezing. If the earth were 2 miles farther or closer to the sun, all would be lost.

 

That sounds like a bigger leap of faith to me.

 

Go argue scientology on a logical playing field. Go argue islam on a logical playing field. Christianity holds much more ground.

 

I'm sorry that all you hear from christians is "convert now or go to hell." People that say stuff like this arent going about it the right way at all, and are frankly sinning when they do. Being rude like that to people is directly against Jesus' teachings and they are wrong for doing so.

[killbot1000]

OK killbot, what religion do you think is most valid? Out of your list in the poll, Christianity is the most historically accurate.

 

IMHO, atheism takes more faith than Christianity. With atheism you have to look at everything in the galaxy and believe that it was created by chance. You have to believe that the big bang (which, by the way, had some odds like 1 in 10^53 of happening and most scientists believe anything with less odds than 1 in 10^52 is impossible) actually happened. You have to believe that you are created from single-cell organisms that weren't even mammals. You have to believe that there is no greater being than you. You have to believe, that BY CHANCE, the earth is far enough from the sun to keep us from burning, and close enough to keep us from freezing. If the earth were 2 miles farther or closer to the sun, all would be lost.

 

That sounds like a bigger leap of faith to me.

 

Go argue scientology on a logical playing field. Go argue islam on a logical playing field. Christianity holds much more ground.

 

I'm sorry that all you hear from christians is "convert now or go to hell." People that say stuff like this arent going about it the right way at all, and are frankly sinning when they do. Being rude like that to people is directly against Jesus' teachings and they are wrong for doing so.

 

I have no problem with jesus, heheh in fact I thought he had a lot of good things to say, messages that should be listened to, I just dont believe he was the son of god, I just believe he was a great guy heheh.

 

In regards to logical religion, to answer your question, the one that makes the most logical sense to me is buddhism, for a multitude of reasons, but suffice it to say, that one is the one that does it for me.

 

in regards to atheism, i just dont believe in a higher power, I dont "feel the love" of god so to speak, I dont feel like there is a presence beyond us that is any one conscious diety. I dont have to believe in the big bang, I dont have to believe in evolution, etc. All im saying is that the evidence ive seen so far in this world would seem to support evolution. Science has discovered many things about this world that we used to attribute to dieties, I just feel that the questions were asking now, are an extension of that, and were just waiting to discover something new, and cutting edge. In regards to the earth being in the right spot, I do believe in random chance. There are far more many stars than grains of sand on all the beaches and deserts of this planet, so out of all those stars, atleast ONE, by random chance has to have a planet with life, theres just so many variables that it has to happen once, and why not to earth .

 

see the thing is, I dont know the truth, I dont know that evolution is real, I dont know if the big bang is true, I dont know if a higher creator created us, there may have been one, but I just dont know, and I will never know, and you will never know, so I just go with what the evidence tells me, and I feel that thats firm ground to stand on.

[killbot1000]

hehe check out this video, I think it shows a good point

 

[quixos]

i went to the site referenced in the youtube video and found the following page.

 

Understanding religious delusion

 

i think it's a clearer lesson than the youtube video. very well and gently done.

 

lets face it, religion is a genetic pre-disposition. you're born that way, or you're not. you can't blame them for believing what they've been taught. if taught nothing, they'd probably make something worse up!

 

remember that people are doing good works despite the irrationality of their religions! do not despair!

[aboldinu]

Sorry if it has been mentioned, but this is why I believe, IMO, god does not, or can't, exist:

 

* If god intended evil to be in the world, he is no good.

 

* If god did not intend evil to be in the world, he is not almight.

[killbot1000]

Sorry if it has been mentioned, but this is why I believe, IMO, god does not, or can't, exist:

 

* If god intended evil to be in the world, he is no good.

 

* If god did not intend evil to be in the world, he is not almight.

 

true true true heheh

[Ouch]

God didn't intend evil to be in the world - he gave human beings the power to choose and we chose evil. God could remove evil and make us all robots who would love him unconditionally but that's not what he wanted.

 

(Seriously only 1 vote for Jedi - where are all the geeks!!)

[aboldinu]

But isn't it said that we were all to live in happiness or something of the likes, but then, Satan lured/convinced (Whatever you call it) us to 'eat' the apple, or go against god, or be 'evil' - Who created Satan? If it wasn't god; Then isn't it logical to believe who ever created Satan may have also created the earth?