What is the one true faith (or lack thereof)?

[Ouch]

Satan was an angel who grew jealous of God and expected that he should be worshipped too - he was cast out of heaven and the precense of God as a punishment.

[killbot1000]

Please, help satans rebellion, hes been trying for so long, but its been a stalemate, we are so close to crushing to old regime, once and for all, we will distract their troops from the west, then...from the east, we will come in, and close the hole right back on them! viva la revolution!

 

Im sorry, this whole idea of an army of satan, and the two kingdoms, etc sound totally ludicrus to me...

[gwprod12]

Satan is a made up concept used by Christians who cant take responsibility for their own lives and who cant accept that they dont control everything around them.

 

Good Christian == Evil Person.

[Conroe Mac]

I would say nontheism. The belief that whether or not there is a god, is unimportant. I voted Buddhism.

[james2mart]

Satan is a made up concept used by Christians who cant take responsibility for their own lives and who cant accept that they dont control everything around them.

 

Good Christian == Evil Person.

 

Don't be ignorant. Saying that "The devil made me do it" is idiotic. God gave us free will, and we don't HAVE to give into Satan's temptation, its just in our nature to do so.

 

I believe that Evolution is a made up concept to give people that oppose God a good excuse - so the wheel turns both ways, gwprod12.

[killbot1000]

Don't be ignorant. Saying that "The devil made me do it" is idiotic. God gave us free will, and we don't HAVE to give into Satan's temptation, its just in our nature to do so.

 

I believe that Evolution is a made up concept to give people that oppose God a good excuse - so the wheel turns both ways, gwprod12.

 

actually the wheel turns one way, and you just dont like the way it turns.

 

He wasnt being ignorant, he was just saying that the devil is used as an excuse for wrong behavior, and hes right, before the new testament, satan was rarely if ever mentioned, much of our view of hell comes from the book "dante's inferno", before that, the devil was seen as blue (cold, away from the warm light of god) and was rarely mentioned in religious practice, but now, hes the focus, funny how that happens.

 

and just to put my personal opinion out there, I dont think that calling the devil a made up concept is ignorant, I think seeing evidence and choosing to ignore it is ignorant (evolution), hence the term, ignorance. Theres no evidence to suggest satan, there is evidence however to support evolution, and the right path is to...ignore the evidence?

 

The concept of a good god, and a bad god is nothing new, the most notable forgotten religion of the middle east is zorroastrianism, judaism, and christianity owe many of its ideas to this religion, the fact that you believe so strongly that you HAVE to give in to satan probably means youll give in to what YOU THINK is evil.

 

Its hard to hear the truth, but good behavior and bad behavior are all relative, we should set standards, but we must also realize that WE set the standards and that the standards may change someday, its the world, time to adapt

[james2mart]

killbot1000, Let's just be honest here. I believe I'm right. So do you.

 

Here's the thing: I could be wrong. Will there be a penalty if I'm wrong? No.

 

Here's the next thing: YOU could be wrong. Will there be a penalty to you if you're wrong? Yes.

 

See, I don't lose ANYTHING for having faith in God. I actually gain a whole lot, and that feels really good. That may not hold alot of water out in the "real world" or whatever, but it means alot to me. So what if I'm wrong? I'll die and that will be the end of it. But what if you're wrong? You still have to consider that as a possibility as well, even if you don't think its possible, because it is.

 

By the way, I don't see evidence and ignore it. As far as I'm concerned, I haven't heard anything that disproves the bible. No historical documentation in the bible has been disproved, yet some of it has been proved.

 

The bible is the only religious document that does not directly contradict itself.

 

[/speak]

[killbot1000]

well, id say the evidence doesnt support what youre saying, theres plenty of contradictions in the bible, contradicitons to science, and history, just to list a few:

 

Is the earth motionless (Psalms 93:1; 104:5)?

 

Is there any mountaintop on a round earth from which one can see “all the kingdoms of the world” (Matthew 4:8)? (If this is not to be taken literally, why does the devil take Jesus up “an exceeding high mountain” at all?)

 

Is it true that "No man has ever seen God at any time" (John 1:18) or did Isaiah (6:1) and Moses and the elders (Exodus 24:9-12) see God?

 

How many generations were there between the Babylonian captivity and Jesus? In Matthew 1, it says there were fourteen, but only thirteen are listed.

 

What about noahs ark, and the "world wide" flood, there is no evidence to suggest that this actually happened, if one looks at the rocks and sediment layers of earth's history, theres no evidence to suggest a world wide flood.

 

Also, jesus would not have been buried in a tomb, he would have been buried in a mass grave, like most peasants were at the time, the romans who were in charge at the time would have thought nothing of throwing his body in a mass grave

 

Also, I dont care if I'm wrong, if a "good" god sent me to hell for the sole reason of not believing in it, then I would rather go to hell. A god thats so insecure that it needs me praising it all the time isnt worthy of being my god, just my take on it.

 

 

And, I dont "believe" im right, the evidence doesnt support god, or satan, the emperical evidence supports evolution, supports my conclusion, I dont believe anything, Im just inclined to follow evolution because its got a bigger barrel of evidence than the bible. Atleast the theory of evolution has something, theres nothing besides a book, that supports the existance of god. Also, prayer has absolutely no effect. It can be statistically proven. So, if the odds of probabilty are the same whether one prays or not, obviously theres no god...atleast, not a god that cares about us specifically.

 

From what I can make of it, the bible is a fairy tale (with real historical tidbits), its the same as the easter bunny, and santa clause, fake...

[gwprod12]

If we're going to play the "no evidence that disproves the bible" game, let's play the "no evidence that disproves evolution" game.

 

Name one piece of evidence that disproves evolution. The bible isnt evidence, mind you.

[killbot1000]

If we're going to play the "no evidence that disproves the bible" game, let's play the "no evidence that disproves evolution" game.

 

Name one piece of evidence that disproves evolution. The bible isnt evidence, mind you.

 

Damn right its not! I find it funny how some people are disgusted by being related to apes, yet they are perfectly happy with being related to dirt heheh

[wildcat69410]

well, id say the evidence doesnt support what youre saying, theres plenty of contradictions in the bible, contradicitons to science, and history, just to list a few:

 

Is the earth motionless (Psalms 93:1; 104:5)?

 

Is there any mountaintop on a round earth from which one can see “all the kingdoms of the world” (Matthew 4:8)? (If this is not to be taken literally, why does the devil take Jesus up “an exceeding high mountain” at all?)

 

Is it true that "No man has ever seen God at any time" (John 1:18) or did Isaiah (6:1) and Moses and the elders (Exodus 24:9-12) see God?

 

How many generations were there between the Babylonian captivity and Jesus? In Matthew 1, it says there were fourteen, but only thirteen are listed.

 

What about noahs ark, and the "world wide" flood, there is no evidence to suggest that this actually happened, if one looks at the rocks and sediment layers of earth's history, theres no evidence to suggest a world wide flood.

 

Also, jesus would not have been buried in a tomb, he would have been buried in a mass grave, like most peasants were at the time, the romans who were in charge at the time would have thought nothing of throwing his body in a mass grave

 

Also, I dont care if I'm wrong, if a "good" god sent me to hell for the sole reason of not believing in it, then I would rather go to hell. A god thats so insecure that it needs me praising it all the time isnt worthy of being my god, just my take on it.

 

 

And, I dont "believe" im right, the evidence doesnt support god, or satan, the emperical evidence supports evolution, supports my conclusion, I dont believe anything, Im just inclined to follow evolution because its got a bigger barrel of evidence than the bible. Atleast the theory of evolution has something, theres nothing besides a book, that supports the existance of god. Also, prayer has absolutely no effect. It can be statistically proven. So, if the odds of probabilty are the same whether one prays or not, obviously theres no god...atleast, not a god that cares about us specifically.

 

Okay, I'll go through your biblical references one by one, just to make it easy for you.

 

Psalms 93:1/104:5

 

Obviously we're not talking about immobile here, but rather that it is a world that God Created and set firm. Not something that will appear and dissapear at will. It's steady and is built on strong foundations, no man will be able to move it nor destroy it.

 

Matthew 4:8

 

Matthew is just one of the gospels, and some of the others talk about the same events, particulary his temptation with the devil. In the other gospels, the devil takes him to the tallest point of Jerusalem. You can see the entire city from the tallest point in Jerusalem.

 

John 1:18/Exodus Contridiction

 

By see he means see a persona, a walking person that was God. Moses and the Elder's never saw God, they just saw his presence. The Bible doesn't always speak literally.

 

Where exactly did you get all this sedimentary evidence that absolutely counters the Great Flood? Seriously now, it's pretty easy to locate the timing of a small flood in sedimentary evidence, it sticks out like a sore thumb, its even a textbook kind of reference. But no person on this earth has ever catalogued something as massive as a 40 day flood that covered the entire earth.

 

Jesus wouldn't have been buried in a mass grave. The Pharisees were far too worried that his disciples would dig up his body, and proclaim it as a sign that he had risen from the dead as he'd prophesized. They specifically asked the Romans that he would be buried in an enclosed tomb with Guards so that the disciples couldn't accomplish that.

 

Oh, and about your insecure god theory. It's not that God is insecure, it's that he's a Jealous God. Yes, I'm serious, a Jealous God. But he has every right to be. And also your little "If he's that insecure he doesn't deserve to be my God." Well who the hell died and made you king. It's not what you deserve as a God, that's not the point of it, if God created the Earth, and Created You, he deserves the worship. He has every right to throw you to hell, but he is trying to give you a way for eternal life.

 

If we're going to play the "no evidence that disproves the bible" game, let's play the "no evidence that disproves evolution" game.

 

Name one piece of evidence that disproves evolution. The bible isnt evidence, mind you.

 

Okay, how bout by starting off by naming off the 100% known proof of evolution. Where are your fossils? Where are all these creatures with half developed lungs, wings, etc, that are proof of the multiplicity of different mutations that occur between species. All fossil evidence shows is hundreds of different species that are only interrelated by common characteristics.

 

If you give me the evidence for Evolution, I'll disprove it, bit by bit.

 

Now go.

[killbot1000]

Okay, I'll go through your biblical references one by one, just to make it easy for you.

 

Psalms 93:1/104:5

 

Obviously we're not talking about immobile here, but rather that it is a world that God Created and set firm. Not something that will appear and dissapear at will. It's steady and is built on strong foundations, no man will be able to move it nor destroy it.

 

Matthew 4:8

 

Matthew is just one of the gospels, and some of the others talk about the same events, particulary his temptation with the devil. In the other gospels, the devil takes him to the tallest point of Jerusalem. You can see the entire city from the tallest point in Jerusalem.

 

John 1:18/Exodus Contridiction

 

By see he means see a persona, a walking person that was God. Moses and the Elder's never saw God, they just saw his presence. The Bible doesn't always speak literally.

 

Where exactly did you get all this sedimentary evidence that absolutely counters the Great Flood? Seriously now, it's pretty easy to locate the timing of a small flood in sedimentary evidence, it sticks out like a sore thumb, its even a textbook kind of reference. But no person on this earth has ever catalogued something as massive as a 40 day flood that covered the entire earth.

 

Jesus wouldn't have been buried in a mass grave. The Pharisees were far too worried that his disciples would dig up his body, and proclaim it as a sign that he had risen from the dead as he'd prophesized. They specifically asked the Romans that he would be buried in an enclosed tomb with Guards so that the disciples couldn't accomplish that.

 

Oh, and about your insecure god theory. It's not that God is insecure, it's that he's a Jealous God. Yes, I'm serious, a Jealous God. But he has every right to be. And also your little "If he's that insecure he doesn't deserve to be my God." Well who the hell died and made you king. It's not what you deserve as a God, that's not the point of it, if God created the Earth, and Created You, he deserves the worship. He has every right to throw you to hell, but he is trying to give you a way for eternal life.

Okay, how bout by starting off by naming off the 100% known proof of evolution. Where are your fossils? Where are all these creatures with half developed lungs, wings, etc, that are proof of the multiplicity of different mutations that occur between species. All fossil evidence shows is hundreds of different species that are only interrelated by common characteristics.

 

If you give me the evidence for Evolution, I'll disprove it, bit by bit.

 

Now go.

 

nobody died and made me king, all im saying is that the evidence doesnt support a god, other than a book, which isnt proof enough for me, I quite simply dont believe in a god, and I think arguing about it is irrelevant, also I think the fact that whether a god created us or not is also irrelevant, it really doesnt change anything, so why waste our lives on it? If I die and see god, ill know that I messed up, so far as I see it, thats not a problem, I havent done bad things in my life, ive been a good person, Im not worried about it, if a god is that jealous, theyre not perfect, and thats ok, just saying...

 

I just dont believe, I dont feel the love of god, I dont feel like praising god, because it doesnt get me anywhere in life to do so, or anybody else for that matter. statistically prayer doesnt work either, which leads me to believe that there isnt a god, im sorry, but thats just what I see, and I think its a fair conclusion to draw

[wildcat69410]

And I can respect your decision. And you're right, at a certain point it boils down to I see it this way and You see it that way. No matter what we can throw at eachother, it eventually comes down to a stalemate. Statistically a lot of things don't work, but when you have personally experienced the saving grace of an answered prayer, it's hard to make the judgement either way.

 

As for your point that Prayer doesn't get you anywhere in life, it actually does. Knowing that there is a God that you can pray to, and ask for help with all your stress and your worries, allows you to deal with things more easily. Knowing that there is someone up there that cares for you, and will protect you and help you weather the storm, is a feeling that is hard to come by in today's world. 100% safety. I know that I am protected, and I know that when I need help, I can call upon it.

 

At a certain point every religion comes down to a leap of faith, doing something that hasn't been proven and probably never will. That's why it's called Faith.

[killbot1000]

And I can respect your decision. And you're right, at a certain point it boils down to I see it this way and You see it that way. No matter what we can throw at eachother, it eventually comes down to a stalemate. Statistically a lot of things don't work, but when you have personally experienced the saving grace of an answered prayer, it's hard to make the judgement either way.

 

As for your point that Prayer doesn't get you anywhere in life, it actually does. Knowing that there is a God that you can pray to, and ask for help with all your stress and your worries, allows you to deal with things more easily. Knowing that there is someone up there that cares for you, and will protect you and help you weather the storm, is a feeling that is hard to come by in today's world. 100% safety. I know that I am protected, and I know that when I need help, I can call upon it.

 

At a certain point every religion comes down to a leap of faith, doing something that hasn't been proven and probably never will. That's why it's called Faith.

 

Im talking about the statistical success of prayer, in multiple studies, prayer has been shown to have absolutely no effect on whether or not somebody will get healed or not.

 

if a disease has a 5% survival rate and 20 people get the disease, 1 is going to survive, if all of those people truly believed in god and truly prayed, the one person who lives says "the lord saved me, I prayed, and he healed me" but the 19 people prayed just as well and you dont hear about their prayer experience because they are dead...The doctors and a certain amount of probability saved that one patient, not prayer, just analyzing it from a statistical point of view, not an anectdotal point of view. so statistically, it actually doesnt.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer#Experi...ation_of_prayer

[wildcat69410]

Even though it is Wikepedia, which isn't exactly an infallable source, there are a few problems that even that exact article condridicts.

 

First of all, the article mentioned a 1988 study which apparently did show positive improvement for those who were prayed for, and although it mentions problems that scientists have claimed, none of the claims have been substantiated exactly, but they may be accurate, I don't know.

 

One of the largest uplifiting parts of prayer is being known that you're being prayed for, the end of the article states that the knowledge of being prayed for can often strengthen the will to live. The issue with the studies is the fact that they were blind, double blind in some instances, and the patients had no idea that they were being prayed for. So they lose the most powerful part of prayer, what makes is so useful, is the confidence and the knowledge that God will hear your prayer.

[gwprod12]

Okay... I think what you're trying to say is that "Positive Thinking" and "Knowing You're Prayed For" is good for you. That's probably true, in fact, it's almost surely true. That's not what the proponents of remote prayer advocate. They claim that the act of other people praying for someone, regardless of the recipient's knowledge, has beneficial health effects. That cant be substantiated.

 

EDIT: The problem with applying scientific methodology to... philosophical or religious activities is that when a study that is conducted scientifically shows that prayer (or whatever) has curative properties, science proves faith. When the same study shows that prayer doesnt have curative properties, science is a crock.

 

I'm trying to come up with a good scientific argument supporting evolution for you to disprove.

 

Most of the arguments against evolution center around the "fact" that it violates the second law of thermodynamics, which states that: In a closed system, the general state of order will tend to decay towards a lack of order", or the entropic principal. This argument actually doesnt apply at all. Life itself is naturally more ordering. If this argument were true, life would be impossible. The tendency for life forms to become more "advanced" over eons as is seen in the fossil record is not a tendency toward order, but merely a tendency toward complication. The Earth is also not a closed system, as it recieves a rather large amount of energy from the Sun.

 

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html is a good site however.

[james2mart]

About prayer.

 

God never says that he will answer every prayer how you want it to be answered. He will answer it according to His will.

 

Say what you want about prayer, but my friend’s wife was told by multiple doctors, “You will not be able to conceive children.” Her church started to pray for her. Within a month, she was pregnant.

 

Call it what you want, luck, or a doctor’s mistake. That’s a God thing.

[killbot1000]

About prayer.

 

God never says that he will answer every prayer how you want it to be answered. He will answer it according to His will.

 

Say what you want about prayer, but my friend’s wife was told by multiple doctors, “You will not be able to conceive children.” Her church started to pray for her. Within a month, she was pregnant.

 

Call it what you want, luck, or a doctor’s mistake. That’s a God thing.

 

 

well, when the doctors tell people "you cant have children" its more like "theres a 1/1000 shot you can have children) and if you happen to be that 1, youre just lucky, theres plenty of people who get prayed for and cant have children, but you only hear about the one, all im saying, is that its a superstition, like tieing your left shoe before your right, or not stepping on cracks, or walking two steps at a time, its just a superstition and coincidence.

 

If people dont know they are being prayed for, nothing different happens to them, however when they DO know, sometimes they have some benefits, so it does have benefits, but only psychological, theres never been one time in history that an amputee has been healed by prayer, simply because it doesnt really work, when people get cured of cancer, its a coincidence, not the prayer, otherwise we'd have a couple people walking around that had regenerated their limbs, because atleast one must have had an answered prayer, but no, we dont, theres been no case of that, prayer only "works" when the disease cant be seen, or is ambiguious, therefore, it has never been proven to work...just saying is all...

 

And if prayer is thrown into question, you can throw the entire religion into question because prayer is part of the religion....

[james2mart]

OK sure. One ovary had already been removed and the other had not produced an egg for 4 years. The doctors said it was impossible.

[killbot1000]

OK sure. One ovary had already been removed and the other had not produced an egg for 4 years. The doctors said it was impossible.

 

Nothing's impossible my friend, just highly improbable, im sure theres one millon people with yoru friend's condition, and its just by coincidence that a few are going to produce that egg that they need...

 

I really dont see why thats so hard to see?

[gwprod12]

"God works in mysterious ways" is the biggest cop-out in the universe.

 

Anywho. Anecdotal evidence is all fine and dandy. I'm sure you can find a million people with paralysis and terminal illnesses who've been "Faith-healed". But, being a skeptic, I'm SKEPTICal of self-centered claims of magical powers with nothing other than "testimony" to back it up.

[wildcat69410]

Nothing's impossible my friend, just highly improbable, im sure theres one millon people with yoru friend's condition, and its just by coincidence that a few are going to produce that egg that they need...

 

You can give us the same old probability just says it's 1/1000000, but that still means it can happen bull, but it doesn't always work that way.

 

Let us take for example, the creation of the Earth. Even if we believe it occured through the science of the Big Bang, and slowly after millions of years, the dust settled, collected into a mass, started spinning, etc etc we've all heard it before. The probability of that was so infitesmal that even some scientists have stated that it is scientifically unplausible to believe it has happened.

 

Most of the arguments against evolution center around the "fact" that it violates the second law of thermodynamics, which states that: In a closed system, the general state of order will tend to decay towards a lack of order", or the entropic principal. This argument actually doesnt apply at all. Life itself is naturally more ordering. If this argument were true, life would be impossible. The tendency for life forms to become more "advanced" over eons as is seen in the fossil record is not a tendency toward order, but merely a tendency toward complication. The Earth is also not a closed system, as it recieves a rather large amount of energy from the Sun.

 

Is this an argument I'm supposed to disprove? Or have you not gotten one yet. My main point here is that it is virtually impossible to find an irrefutable fact that supports Evolution. That's why it never became the Law of Evolution or anything like that, it is still considered to be a scientific Theory. Not to say that it doesn't hold ground in the scientific community, it's just that nothing has been discovered that concretely proves Evolution.

[gwprod12]

Okay, I thought you were actually arguing something. If you dont know anything about science (what a theory actually is, for instance), then it's pointless.

 

As for the likelyhood that gas and dust and rock would coalesce into a planet is infinitessimally small... That's absolutely rediculous. Gravity causes matter to attract... stuff coalescing is to be expected. Ask anyone who graduated from Highschool.

 

Nothing has ever been concretely proved in a scientific sense...

 

I think maybe a better approach for you is to to name a fact that directly contradicts the theory of evolution.

[wildcat69410]

Okay then, I'll give you several.

 

First off, Evolution states that there are hundreds of tiny mutations between generations, some favorable, and some unfavorable, that slowly guide one species unto an entirely different one. However, what fossil evidence supports that? There is not ONE FOSSIL! Not one single fossil that shows a creature with a unfavorable mutation. Not one fossil that shows a creature midway through its evolutionary journey to become another species!

 

Not only that, but there are many instances where a multitude of species appear, virtually out of nowhere, with no evolutionary predecessors at all. Plus if we look at the theory of Evolution, it is just plain ludicrous. For example, if creatures were continually evolving, wouldn't we have more species today than we would thousands of years ago? Even counting in the ones we humans drove to extinction, we should have hundreds more new species of birds, fish, and mammals. Instead it has done the opposite, and has deteriorated!

 

All we've gotten out of evolution is microevolution. All Darwin's Finches did were change the shape of their beaks in corrospondence with their food source. That's as far as proveable evolution goes. Darwin even estimated that after a few hundred years of the weather conditions changing that we'd have a new species of Finch on the island. Well, it's been 160 years and we're not even close.

 

Nothing has ever been concretely proved in a scientific sense...

 

Hmm, how about Gravity? I think I'm pretty safe in saying that Gravity has been proved concretely in a scientific sense.

[gwprod12]

I disagree with a lot of people, and a lot of people disagree with me. But I cant argue with someone who doesnt understand what an argument is.

 

Next.