American Democracy and Capitalism

[Swad]

This is to continue the discussion from the Blogging thread between bofors and me. Everyone is free to contribute!

 

I won't argue here that America doesn't have a lot to improve upon. What I will argue is that, on the whole, the American system of government (and capitalism) is one of the best - if not the best - in the world. I've traveled to almost every continent and many of these ideas are collected from those travels and my own studies.

 

1. To begin with, worldwide modern democracy owes much to the American founding. The US Constitution is the single greatest political document in the history of man. Period. No other paper has had as much influence or held up so well through time. It's 200 year lifespan is a testament to that. Does it have issues? Yes - the slavery clauses, although detested by many of the signers, are a shame (although it was necessary for the whole thing to be ratified) – but it’s still the best we’ve got.

 

2. I feel that the American separation of powers is vastly superior to any other set up. Britain has a parlimentary system that has its advantages, but if given the choice between the two I'd take the 3 distinct branches. As it stands right now, the President has little legal sway over congress, whereas in the UK system the PM has an effective fiat power (not the car).

 

3. Checks and balances. Following on the point above, a good separation is necessary to keeping the other groups in check. Again looking at the UK model, parliament is a tangled web of legislative, judicial, and executive, which leads to some issues (like the money-for-peerages scandal) that the US gov’t is less affected by (but not immune).

4. US Support. The US gives out billions of aid to countries in need. With the Marshall Plan it effectively bankrolled Europe after WWII to help it get back on its feet. Say what you will about the US government, but it is certainly generous. Sometimes to a fault.

 

5. Bill of Rights. Man, where do I get started with this one? It’s so vital to the wellbeing of a nation to have codified rights as opposed to vague and flexible ones. Again, this isn’t always used properly/correctly, but it’s important nonetheless. It’s one reason why America has been so successful – even though it is still intrusive in many ways (most of the time far too much).

 

I don’t want this thread to become a “Freedom of X? How can you say that when Bush did this!!!” kind of thread. I would really enjoy a thoughtful discussion on international perspectives of these American ideals though.

 

I’m obviously not saying America is the best nation on Earth. We have a ton of problems just like everyone. It is a great nation, however, and I do maintain that it’s governmental and economic system is still one of the greatest.

[williedigital]

With something so complex as the historical development of nations, it's a very tough thing to argue any point about "what made America great". While our constitution is a fine document, much of our success can likely be owed to such things as happy coincidence (wow, what an expanse of fertile farmland!), rather than rational deliberation and the correct choice of "first principles". America has prospered, but the USSR did remarkably well considering the shape it was in when it was founded, the natural resources it is blessed with, and being cut off from almost all trade during the cold war. Quite simply, the nation-state is too recent of an invention, with too many external factors determining its success, for us to make much of a normative claim about the "correct" form it should take.

 

The same argument holds for the "best state right now" argument. Japan and the asian tigers have done damn well for themselves if you look at recent history, and the US has seemingly done a good deal of squandering of both natural and social resources. And how to do we account for the failure of so many states (esp in Africa) that have formal proceedures very similar to our own?

 

The US is a pretty damn nice place to live, but I sometimes wonder if it's just because we're able to exploit weaker states and I reap at least a portion of the benefit of that.

[fOZf8]

Yeah, we definately squandor quite a bit here in the US...

 

I think conceptually our system could be great....any could by that means though. It would help alot if our government would simply admit that we're no longer a democracy but more of a quasi-socialistic war-mongering power-hungry behemoth of a nation.

 

Oh yeah, our president pretty much does what he wants to...he just waves his guns around a bit and half the nation chants in the blood with him, the other quivers in fear of losing their top dollar if they don't go along with him. Dudes really good at covering his tracks too...I'll spare the details though considering it's 4am here and I don't feel like having my post red flagged by the feds for further 'interpretations'.

[ampTK]

Mash I’m not sure where you’re going here, so I’m only going to share my thoughts of the matters you wrote about

 

“the American system of government (and capitalism) is one of the best - if not the best”

If you mean a presidential democracy with Montesquieu’s three powers, many countries have that.

In Democracy political freedom and economical freedom are always present. So in Democratic countries you will always have a free market, but those have always some regulations, because a purely capitalist (without any kind of regulation) state (nation) will result in chaos, and could never be accomplished. No country on earth exists without even the tiniest amount of regulation in the economies, so the only difference between democratic states in this realm is the amount of their regulation, but in all the capitalism exists to some extent.

(political freedom is one of it’s pillars, economical freedom it’s highly linked with the political one, in practice you can’t have political freedom without economical)

 

I believe that modern democracy owes more than anything to Montesquieu, Rousseau, Locke and company for the creation it’s principles without those, modern democracy probably wouldn’t exist.

 

“I feel that the American separation of powers is vastly superior to any other set up”

Do you mean a setup of a presidential system with an Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branch? Well there is no need to repeat my self, isn’t it?

There are countries were they have that setup (or similar) with power separation (on the legislation), but in practice the separation isn’t there or is weak, but those aren’t truly democratic states or with weakened democracies (there could me any factors for that, but I’m not going to get into that now).

 

Nobody is saying the Marshall Plan was bad. And most industrialized countries give help to disaster areas, developing and undeveloped countries.

 

And most democratic (all as far as I know) states have human rights in their legislation, built-in their constitution or otherwise. And of curse is vital, it is simply essential. But as I said I’m not sure where you’re going.

[OryHara]

The ideal society. There are some flaws however in the end of the storyline, such as the chips, which i disagree with. If anyone is interested in my ideal society check out Manna by Marshal Brain. Baed on the TRUE, and ORIGINAL ideas of Karl Marx. It is 7 chapters long, and is a free, and open book. This is the type of idea that free and open software is based on, and the GPL.

 

It talks about the fall of capitolism, greed, and the reign of innovation. I encourage everyone to read it. This is what heaven on earth would be like.

 

http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

[username931]

I think conceptually our system could be great....any could by that means though. It would help alot if our government would simply admit that we're no longer a democracy but more of a quasi-socialistic war-mongering power-hungry behemoth of a nation.

 

I agree that our nation has great foundations and the system better than most, however our country is plauged by ignorance. The media helps direct this with shallow and biased coverage of issues. I used to think the same way as fOZf8, but America is a democracy its just many of its people are fooled too easily. It feels like people are gradually beoming concious of reality, and this will eliminate many politicians. Congress has neglected its checks and balances due to the fact that it is majority republican. Just remember that this situation in Iraq is not over yet, and we may have our day. The suppression of things like the 9/11 conspiracy could disapear with a new congress, and the media due to competition from blogs and the internet may be forced to be less biased.

 

"Have no fear for atomic energy, because none of them can stop the times." - Bob Marley

[jgrimes80]

I just got home from giving a speech about "American Imperialism" alongside many other consultants to an extrodinarily leftist group at a local JC. Needless to say, I fear that because we were all talking about the negatives of this country, their negative views were simply reinterated. It's important to note the positives as well. This country could have the biggest problems in the world... but of all the places I've visited, this country is by far superior (with a few exceptions)...

 

The fact the most who "come here; stay" is sufficient enough for me to think that I'm in, at the very least, a good example of civilization.

 

For those who challenge the current system, I encourage you to do so; without citizens asking questions, this government (largely controlled by "Corporate America") will break from the principles that make this country great. Ignorance is "bliss" in the realm of governed... dangerous in maintaining a stable society. The media isn't any help in this matter...

 

For those who say this is a democracy... WE'RE NOT, and never were. The USA is a representative republic. sorry...

 

And I wouldn't say "modern democracy" has anything to do with the founding of America... but ancient Greece. :censored2:

[u1m2]

Yea you have an amazing democratic system, election in FLORIDA is one great example of your fine american democracy too. Also all presidential systems suck and us of a is just another example to it. I truly hope you understand now why nations like Iraq refuse your kind of "democracy"...

 

keep on deceiving yourselves that you have something reselmbling to a democracy, your country is ruled by rich, fat people and people who vote are too stupid to understand the actions of your government and who truly benefits from them at the end.

[gwprod12]

Democracy is all about stupid voters. If the voters were responsible and informed, it would be a technocracy.

 

There will always be stupid people. There will always be people of all stripe. When you start determining who has value and who doesnt, who's worthy of voting and who isnt... that's when you enter into Nazism.

 

While it is true that Karl Marx did not say that "Religion is the opiate of the masses", I'm sure he felt that it was.

[jgrimes80]

Yea you have an amazing democratic system, election in FLORIDA is one great example of your fine american democracy too. Also all presidential systems suck and us of a is just another example to it. I truly hope you understand now why nations like Iraq refuse your kind of "democracy"...

 

keep on deceiving yourselves that you have something reselmbling to a democracy, your country is ruled by rich, fat people and people who vote are too stupid to understand the actions of your government and who truly benefits from them at the end.

 

Houston, we have a winner... but compare the living conditions/oppression of the poor/lower classes in the US to that of most other nations though...

 

Iraq opposes "America" - not democracy... Our imperialistic position and emphasis on economic/political "security" coupled with the history of America and it's "promotion" of democracy which is obliviously dominating (on our part). In addition, promises to the Iraqi's aren't being met... hence the hostility. One could readily argue that the US is intentionally trying to influence the creation a weak democracy (or one largely beneficial to the US). Ever wonder why the USA put Saddam Hussein in a newly created dictatorship to begin with? Let's just say he was our "good friend" and good friends help one another out to say the least.

 

Unfortunately, most are not decieving themselves but rather a politically biased media owned by American corporations... not that I disagree with you...

 

Democracy is all about stupid voters. If the voters were responsible and informed, it would be a technocracy.

 

There will always be stupid people. There will always be people of all stripe. When you start determining who has value and who doesnt, who's worthy of voting and who isnt... that's when you enter into Nazism.

 

While it is true that Karl Marx did not say that "Religion is the opiate of the masses", I'm sure he felt that it was.

 

 

Capitalism is dependent upon a "free" labor that can be exploited (try exploiting a socially educated person) according to Karl Marx... Our government is dependent upon a majority of ill-formed socially unaware citizens. Only 25% of all high school graduates ever step foot in a college course in the US, less than 5% of that 25% recieve a Graduate's degree... so a good I'll say 60-70% of the people are pretty much qualify for that job.

[gwprod12]

Yeah, I just wish the college degree I'm working on would put me into the Elite.

 

The thing about our society is that the undereducated really only have themselves to blame. Anyone with a single wit and some drive can get through college. I know, I dont have two wits to rub together, and I can barely get out of bed in the morning. And my GPA is 3.9. LOL.

 

My political science professor said "Not everyone is as driven and intelligent as you, Derek. Not everyone can go to college. Not everyone can afford it". Drive? Intelligence? well, maybe Intelligence. But Drive? You've gotta be kidding me. And money? The federal and state governments have a vested interest in putting people through school. Anyone who wants to go, can. The money's there. And lots of people didnt do well in highschool... In my opinion, highschool is society's way of providing labor to fast food joints. But failure in highschool doesnt mean failure in college.

[cyrana]

Only 25% of Americans go to college? Really? I went to some redneck town with like 5000 people in it, and it had a 60% rate for that (which I thought was low). Maybe it's a Northern Illinois thing.

 

In response to gwprod... Most people don't have any drive and are perfectly happy to go through life not doing anything much.

 

It is true that the US has a lot of money to go to school, though. My parents had no money when I was a kid and the gov't paid for me to go to college. Lucky for me, as I'd not have been able to afford it otherwise.

 

I disagree with Mash a bit, but I still think the US has a good governmental system in place and better protection of rights -on average- than most countries. I wish they could do something about corporate ownership of government and how hard it is for a 3rd party, though. At least I don't have to worry about the US ever passing a blasphemy law like Europe is most likely going to get. (I'm moving to the UK soon, but I'm insane. )

[gwprod12]

According to the census bureau, only about 25% of everyone in the united states has finished college. Less than 80% of the people in the united states graduated from highschool. Bear in mind that these numbers are soft, the census bureau does not verify the information it is given. There's no reason to say you havent graduated highschool or college when you have, but there's plenty of reason to say you have when you havent.

[jgrimes80]

According to the census bureau, only about 25% of everyone in the united states has finished college. Less than 80% of the people in the united states graduated from highschool. Bear in mind that these numbers are soft, the census bureau does not verify the information it is given. There's no reason to say you havent graduated highschool or college when you have, but there's plenty of reason to say you have when you havent.

 

25% (w/ at least a 2 year degree) and with < 2% of the population completing graduate work... hell it could be 49%, thats still a majority rules in favor of stupidity. aka WAY TOO LOW!

 

People also have to remember, a degree doesn't necessarily make a good indicator of "intellect." I know unemployed people with Ph.D that are just the biggest morons (outside their field of study) and then know people who never finished high school and can carry highly reputable conversations in things like politics, economics, engineerings etc and hold a prestigious job.

 

I blame the media for the ignorance of America... if they pledged to truly educate the public on issues and political affairs, this country would change almost overnight. Personally I don't think that would ever happen because the more who are familiar with the issue, the more questions the government has to answer. And the more scrutiny the government would be subjected to...

[gwprod12]

I agree that Formal Education isnt a good indicator of Intelligence or Know-how. It helps though.

[bwhsh8r]

Americas education system has a bad reputation because it was, it still is not the best system but it has been upgraded quite a bit from when my parents went to school (im in highschool) and the percent of people that goes to collage does not necicarly show how smart they are (some people cant afford it or just dont want to go) and the democracy has some fundamental flaws but it has worked so far and we have had good leaders (dont flame me for this, it its true, because if we elected a really bad leader then we wouldnt have a democracy anymore)

 

 

max

[BRP]

I blame the media for the ignorance of America... if they pledged to truly educate the public on issues and political affairs, this country would change almost overnight. Personally I don't think that would ever happen because the more who are familiar with the issue, the more questions the government has to answer. And the more scrutiny the government would be subjected to...

Well, media runs on money. Now picture here your average ANYONE just sitting at the TV or listening to the radio (instead of reading a book, or intently researching something on the Internet, or heck even reading a newspaper). Consider the two scenarios:

 

TV: "A baby fell down a well in Texas this morning. Local firemen are attempting to rescue blah blah blah..."

Viewer: OH MY GOD!

 

versus

 

TV: "Ten thousand kids died of starvation in Africa today, just like the ten thousand that die every day--

Viewer: *clicks remote and watches Fear Factor*

 

I guess it's not so easy for the media when people want to NOT care.

[gwprod12]

I agree. It's sensationalist television for a reason. The thing is, people think I'm the strange one. People think I'm unfeeling when I say "Oh, someone died in a mine. Big deal, people are dying all over the world from hunger" or "Columbia wasnt a tragedy. They got to space, that's pretty good. That's 7 people who died. How many people dont have food tonight?". It's not that I'm unfeeling or apathetic, it's that other people only know to feel something when they're TOLD to.

[killbot1000]

Yeah, I dont know if america has the best system, capitalizm certainly isnt the best system, I agree with democracy, but free trade and capitalizm is absolutely crazy, if that was allowed to go on unchecked companies would still be paying their workers pennies in deplorable working conditions, the sooner we stop putting on the fake image of "absolutely free trade" and start regulating the things that NEED to be regulated, we'll be roaring!

 

Also I dont agree that our system of government works with a horrible leader, no system of government really does, I mean look in recent years, our rights can arbitrarily be taken away slowly so that we dont notice because it feels gradual. Everybody just watch out, every US president who has pledged smaller government has made considerable steps in making the government much bigger.

 

I do think the media needs to be changed, I dont think the probelm with it is that its liberal, I think the problem with it is a focus on ratings and entertainment and not enough focus on informing the public on what needs to be heard whether people want to hear it or not.

[jgrimes80]

Yeah, I dont know if america has the best system, capitalizm certainly isnt the best system, I agree with democracy, but free trade and capitalizm is absolutely crazy, if that was allowed to go on unchecked companies would still be paying their workers pennies in deplorable working conditions, the sooner we stop putting on the fake image of "absolutely free trade" and start regulating the things that NEED to be regulated, we'll be roaring!

 

Also I dont agree that our system of government works with a horrible leader, no system of government really does, I mean look in recent years, our rights can arbitrarily be taken away slowly so that we dont notice because it feels gradual. Everybody just watch out, every US president who has pledged smaller government has made considerable steps in making the government much bigger.

 

I do think the media needs to be changed, I dont think the probelm with it is that its liberal, I think the problem with it is a focus on ratings and entertainment and not enough focus on informing the public on what needs to be heard whether people want to hear it or not.

 

Your understanding of capitalism isn't too complete. You claim that companies having people working for pennies is a problem... but if everyone is only making pennies then in order for those companies to sell those products, they have to sell it for pennies. In order for a business (capitalism abroad) to exist successfully, there has to be a comsumer and a supplier willing to find a "sweet spot." A long elaboration short, everything is relative.

 

This is why you'll hear many analysts refering to capatilism ability to adapt to any encounter or fill any necessary gap...

 

I'm partly with you on the government... you have to remember, these people are elected officials so technically, the people who American citizens decide to have represent themselve are agreeing (with majority) that these measures are in the interest of America. The best part, tommorrow Congress can pass a law revoking implementations of a disliked law... or a firm can build a case and try it in the US Supreme Court. Their is no such thing as a perfect government by nature because it's impossible to please everyone.

 

I'm right there with you on the media... they've opted for business rather than it's original purpose which was to purely educate the public. I wish anyone could write something up and have it printed like it was when it was still federally regulated. I've got books and books; dissertations upon dissertations I'd like the public to read.

[killbot1000]

Your understanding of capitalism isn't too complete. You claim that companies having people working for pennies is a problem... but if everyone is only making pennies then in order for those companies to sell those products, they have to sell it for pennies. In order for a business (capitalism abroad) to exist successfully, there has to be a comsumer and a supplier willing to find a "sweet spot." A long elaboration short, everything is relative.

 

This is why you'll hear many analysts refering to capatilism ability to adapt to any encounter or fill any necessary gap...

 

I'm partly with you on the government... you have to remember, these people are elected officials so technically, the people who American citizens decide to have represent themselve are agreeing (with majority) that these measures are in the interest of America. The best part, tommorrow Congress can pass a law revoking implementations of a disliked law... or a firm can build a case and try it in the US Supreme Court. Their is no such thing as a perfect government by nature because it's impossible to please everyone.

 

I'm right there with you on the media... they've opted for business rather than it's original purpose which was to purely educate the public. I wish anyone could write something up and have it printed like it was when it was still federally regulated. I've got books and books; dissertations upon dissertations I'd like the public to read.

 

 

I do understand capitalizm, I just dont agree with it, atleast the ideal of it. My problem is I have a little bit of socialism in me (not to be confused with communism, which is f***ed up too), I think healthcare is a right, not a privilidge, I also believe that businesses have an obligation to help the community in which they do business, some companies would get away with murder if they could (wal mart for example). I just think unregulated business is a very bad thing. It just leads to the companies taking advantage of poor people, widening the gap in rich and poor. I agree with laws like in in my own state of washington in which minimum wage has to be eqivalant to the standard of living, I think those laws are good, alot of people dont agree with me, and think its unnecessary regulation, but if the government didnt force companies to be honest, few would be.

[A Nonny Moose]

Mash, the United States of America isn't a democracy. It is a republic. There is a huge difference between those two terms.

[gwprod12]

The US is a "democracy" with a little d, and a representative Republic with a big R.

 

Athens was a Democracy with a big D.

[Swad]

Indeed. The D-word in the title is as in American-style Democracy.

 

Technically we're a Democratic Republic.

[OryHara]

Technically we're a Democratic Republic.

Not exactly. We are really an Fascist Republic. Democracy flew out the window over 100 years ago since the corps took over.

 

 

Its not a democracy. Can you find someone in congress / the senate that represents you? Ive looked everywhere, I can't find one. They all seem to eager to help Bellsouth turn a profit, rather than the people that put their sorry asses there.

 

I actually exchanged words with Trent Lott when I met him in the local grocery store. (He is a complete dumbass) I asked him why he is representing Bellsouth instead of the people that voted him into office. He had no answer, and started acting nervous. He tried to use his fake 'senator' personality, and defend himself saying that it was better for the people. When confronted on censorship issues in the matter, he couldn't answer, and walked away nervous with people staring at him wondering why he couldn't answer the (net neutrality) questions. When in line at the checkout counter, a small child about 3 or 4, that was with a tattooed woman threw a cabbage at him.