Are Mormons Christians?

[djet]

Silly and delusional? *laugh* No Mormon thinks that, I am sure... just like no Catholic thinks that of their church... and so on... but ask any Christian about someone else's religion and oh my hell. Don't you think there is enough division in the world? They aren't going to change to suit you and you aren't going to change to suit them. Why don't we call this a draw and move on already.

 

I agree with you here. We will always think other peoples religions very odd, however I don't agree with you on closing this topic just because you believe this an unwinable fight to the death. It's simply an argument. I don't believe I'm going to change anyone and I don't think the people on the other side of the argument will. If you are going to be that angered by an argument on a forum, you might need to reanalyze yourself.

[Maxintosh]

Don't you think there is enough division in the world?

Ironically history teaches us that most of the worlds division and pain is caused from religion.

 

When someone is brainwashed it is hard to get them to think with an open mind.

 

They aren't going to change to suit you and you aren't going to change to suit them. Why don't we call this a draw and move on already.

It's the human form of chasing your tail. This thread has no further usefulness.

[aduffbrew]

If you are going to be that angered by an argument on a forum, you might need to reanalyze yourself.

Angered? Nah... maybe baffled and a little confused. Why would you think I was angry?

 

Agreed... Mormons are not your version of Christian. Yea! We solved it. *laugh*

 

Seriously, this is like the Shia and the Sunni asking the question if the other is really muslim. As non-participants, you'd may well say, "Well, yeah! What a dumb question." To answer Are Mormons Christian, I would give the same response.

[djet]

Seriously, this is like the Shia and the Sunni asking the question if the other is really muslim. As non-participants, you'd may well say, "Well, yeah! What a dumb question." To answer Are Mormon's Christian, I would give the same response.

 

Have you heard the expression , "If you don't have anything good to say, then don't say anything."

[Maxintosh]

Have you heard the expression , "If you don't have anything good to say, then don't say anything."

Have you heard the expression "sometimes the truth hurts" 'cuss it appears that when people here speak the truth of the matter about this you seem to get nervous....

[djet]

Have you heard the expression "sometimes the truth hurts" 'cuss it appears that when people here speak the truth of the matter about this you seem to get nervous....

 

Forgive me for not seeing the truth. If only I could have been as enlightened as yourself! I can't believe I did not realize that not a single intelligent open-minded person has ever believed in Christianity.

 

Honestly, my faith has not been challenged in the least bit by any of your posts on any of the religious topics on this forum. Moreover, you have strengthened it. Now if you don't believe in what I do, that's your "beef" (/laugh @ shoe incident) but it's becoming increasingly frustrating when I specifically ask in a topic for people not to post about the validity of either religion and you cannot simply hold back the desire to show everyone how you "know how it really is." It is sad to see how you are posting about how I am "ignoring the truth" but you cannot even control your own desire for self-aggrandizement and thus are ignoring what I had asked you not to do...

[killbot1000]

Mormons are Mormons

 

There are no "Christians". There is no "Christian Church". Instead it is:

 

Catholic Church

Lutheran Church

Methodist Church

Evangelical Church

 

etc. etc. Take your pick on which of the one million denominations of "Christianity" you'd like to be a part of...or not.

 

Christian is merely an all encompassing word for common threads that all of these denominations share, I do not believe however that there is an official christian religion, only different forms of this one THING that we use to describe all forms of christianity. Being Mormon is a form of christianity, just as Catholocism is another FORM of christianity (common threads, some more emphasized than others).

 

This is why one can still be christian but also bend the bible to say anything that one desires. It literally says all points of view at once even though they contradict and conflict, so that people will literally read it, pick something they like out of it, and then try to tell others what the book is about, oh and at the same time, its "God"'s words, so its "perfect".

 

So at the end of the day who cares whether Mormons are Christians? I guess....Mormons and other forms of Christians.

 

If you ask me its a waste of time though, this dialogue doesn't do anything other than cause people to disagree. We should be talking about "The Big Issues" in our world and focus on real, tangible, common sense solutions to our problems. Time to throw this 1700 year old book out the window.

 

PS:

I don't claim to know "how it is" or "how it works" but I know enough to know that I don't know enough (the world, the afterlife, take your pick). Which is more than I can say for most Christians...

[aduffbrew]

Merry Christmas!!!

 

Christendom is richly diverse... and that's a very good thing. While I may not share many of their doctrinal beliefs, I have a great love and appreciation for my Mormon friends. To know them, one wouldn't have the need to challenge their professed Christianity. All in all, they are a very generous and kind people working towards their ideal perfection. In this, we can find much in common.

 

"Oh, mankind, God could have made you one if He had willed, but He did not. He made you the separate nations and tribes so that you could know one another, cooperate with one another, and compete with one another in good works." ~ Qur'an 5:48

[iNoob]

When someone is brainwashed it is hard to get them to think with an open mind.

True. I have personally met many people that have been "brainwashed". They think that your ideas are wrong, and what they think is right is right and any other point of view is wrong. Religion is a thing people made to explain the unexplainable(oh irony), but it became a sort of brainwashing thing. Want examples? The Medieval Age's Catholic church. No, I'm not an Atheist, but there are people that sincerely, I prefer to not to comment.

[djet]

Okay the point about Christians' close-mindedness is very valid indeed. However I want to challenge you on a couple points. First, you consider Christians to be close-minded in general and once again I agree with you, but I must ask, are any of you (I'm using the plural form of you. This isn't directed solely at iNoob) guilty of the same crime? I've examined the Atheistic point of view many a time and have drawn the conclusion in favor of Christianity and I'm sure many of you have examined the Christian point of view.

 

Secondly, this point about brainwashing... I'm not exactly sure what you are going with here. Are you suggesting that Christians do not see evidence supporting both sides of the issue? Should at my next church meeting I go and demonstrate Atheistic evidence attempting to denounce Christianity I really don't understand what you are pointing to. Are you referring to Christian raising of children and are suggesting that parents should be sure to let their children hear both sides of the argument so they can decide for themselves? If so, then I find you do not understand a Christian's parents mindset towards their childs' future. If what we say is true, then their beliefs are not so simple as choosing Republican or Democrat, it's between Paradise and Damnation (cliché, I know, but it's all I got right now), thus the parent will want to make certain their child has every advantage towards achieving that goal... So could one of you explain to me what you mean by brainwashing? Generally people in the US aren't forced at gunpoint into a church and forced to accept Christ and spew it out of their mouth ignoring all other beliefs. Yes, iNoob, the Medieval Catholic Church could have been an example of brainwashing.... Peasants did not have access to the internet and people weren't free to argue against Priests about their views.... but is that really applicable anymore?

 

-

 

Killbot, as a member here for about 2 years I've grown to respect you on these forums, but I find it hard to argue with you with respect when you blatantly disrespect my beliefs. Please, you could simply leave out:

 

"Time to throw this 1700 year old book out the window."

"I don't claim to know "how it is" or "how it works" but I know enough to know that I don't know enough (the world, the afterlife, take your pick). Which is more than I can say for most Christians..."

 

Now your last quote... I may have misunderstood it but this is what I've got: -You are intelligent enough to be humble enough to not pretend to know everything. But you are definitely more intelligent than most Christians.

 

 

 

This topic is so far gone.... shall we continue?

[nebulOSX]

I just had a quick scan over this thread and thought it would be good to share my beliefs, just so you guys kinda know what direction many christians are coming from. First off, there are plenty of groups that claim to be "Christians". There are lots of people who I would think genuinely are, but there are also people who claim to be for many reasons such as going to church or their parents are christians but, in my opinion aren't. There is also the group who claim to be christian, but make me wonder how much they actually are, as their actions clearly don't show that. An example of these people, in my opinion are Westboro baptist church. Because of this there is a very wide spectrum of people claiming to be christian. This makes it very easy for non-Christians to generalize christians as a whole. Just because one group of people claiming to be christian say one thing doesn't mean we are all like that. In my opinion, a real christian isn't someone who is brainwashed and wants to go out and brainwash everyone else. I think a real christian genuinely think that what they have is a great thing and they just want to share how amazing it feels to have a personal relationship with the God who created the universe. discrimination against anyone or any group of people is WRONG. A christian wants to emulate Jesus as much as possible. Even you people who aren't christians must think that what he did was amazing? He reached out and helped people who were shunned and rejected from society and showed them love that no one else had given them. Even if you think it is all a story, Jesus is still an amazing person to try and be like. I try to ignore all the denominations, it seems these days there are too many barriers between different groups of christians. Instead we should all focus on trying to be more like Jesus and show people love and compassion. Something that todays society seems to sorely lack.

[Grav3Mind]

My post clearly stayed away from showing how they are valid, in-fact it proved how they are invalid. Funny how that worked out

 

Pro Troll. you dont care about any of this, you only care about getting people pissed off. Go to 4chan or something.

[Konami®]

I find it ironic that while Mormons are asking to be considered to be Christians, their very founder said this:

 

""all wrong ... all their creeds were an admonition in his sight, and that those professors (Christians) were all corrupt"

 

I just wonder why there wasn't anything in the Bible about Joseph Smith... I mean Christ was prophesied extensively throughout the Old Testament, why wouldn't there be one word about how the whole faith would be totally remade. I guess you could argue the same for the Reformation....

 

I agree with you, I was in the mormon church years ago, but I decided to stay in the catholic church because it pissed me up when I was trying to understand why Joseph Smith was so privilege in found the books covered in gold and today there are not information about where are these books covered in gold? give me a {censored} break, you can tell that there is not true in this religion and everything was wrote by the imagination of Joseph Smith.

[A Nonny Moose]

Yet if Joseph Smith lived 2,000 years ago and wrote this myth down...

 

As for the question at hand, Mormons believe in the Jesus myth, which makes them Christians.

[martin15s]

Yet if Joseph Smith lived 2,000 years ago and wrote this myth down...

 

As for the question at hand, Mormons believe in the Jesus myth, which makes them Christians.

 

It is always so easy to knock something that you cannot or do not wish to understand. I choose to believe in Jesus just as you choose not. You can no more prove that Jesus was a myth more than I can prove that he IS the Son of God. I find your signature particularly offensive,but it seems to fit in with your beliefs. Once again it is easy to take things out of context. Many people continuously quote a particular passage of scripture to suit what they want it to mean instead of delving in to the true meaning. No one can be a true Christian without accepting the unerring truth of God's Word as recorded in the Bible, and professing that Jesus Christ is his Lord and Saviour, and repenting of their sins. When w econfesss with our mouths and believe with our hearts then we are said to be born again in Christ.

[A Nonny Moose]

It is always so easy to knock something that you cannot or do not wish to understand.

 

No, it's always easy to knock something that is so blatantly wrong. Similar cases can be made with the Book of Mormon. There are many errors in there also, which South Park so lovingly pointed out.

 

I choose to believe in Jesus just as you choose not. You can no more prove that Jesus was a myth more than I can prove that he IS the Son of God.

 

Actually, outside of the Bible and one source proven to be a hoax, there is absolutely no historical proof of Jesus' existence. For starters, check this out that makes a good case for Jesus never existing. It's not that we're unable to prove he didn't exist; we are making the case that he didn't exist.

 

I find your signature particularly offensive,but it seems to fit in with your beliefs. Once again it is easy to take things out of context. Many people continuously quote a particular passage of scripture to suit what they want it to mean instead of delving in to the true meaning.

 

How is following a story to its logical conclusion taking something out of context? Seriously, how on earth can he save your soul if he can't even cure a man without trying to make pigs an extinct species? I mean, Jesus could have just said "get out" or called forth magical lightning or envelop the poor guy in magical winds or something like that.

 

As another example, you seriously need to stop wearing cotton/poly blends or you're going to Hell, as this violates Leviticus 19:19. People should seriously take a look at some of these biblical laws. Plus, I wouldn't have sex with a woman on her period if I were you (Leviticus 20:18)...

 

No one can be a true Christian without accepting the unerring truth of God's Word as recorded in the Bible, and professing that Jesus Christ is his Lord and Saviour, and repenting of their sins. When w econfesss with our mouths and believe with our hearts then we are said to be born again in Christ.

 

And let's not even get into Contradictions in the Bible. Let's not even get into how the Bible receives an F in science class.

 

All of those contradictions and issues come from just one site! Imagine if I would really take the time to look it up, or decided to pull from Zeitgeist...

[martin15s]

No, it's always easy to knock something that is so blatantly wrong. Similar cases can be made with the Book of Mormon. There are many errors in there also, which South Park so lovingly pointed out.

 

 

 

Actually, outside of the Bible and one source proven to be a hoax, there is absolutely no historical proof of Jesus' existence. For starters, check this out that makes a good case for Jesus never existing. It's not that we're unable to prove he didn't exist; we are making the case that he didn't exist.

 

 

 

How is following a story to its logical conclusion taking something out of context? Seriously, how on earth can he save your soul if he can't even cure a man without trying to make pigs an extinct species? I mean, Jesus could have just said "get out" or called forth magical lightning or envelop the poor guy in magical winds or something like that.

 

As another example, you seriously need to stop wearing cotton/poly blends or you're going to Hell, as this violates Leviticus 19:19. People should seriously take a look at some of these biblical laws. Plus, I wouldn't have sex with a woman on her period if I were you (Leviticus 20:18)...

 

 

 

And let's not even get into Contradictions in the Bible. Let's not even get into how the Bible receives an F in science class.

 

All of those contradictions and issues come from just one site! Imagine if I would really take the time to look it up, or decided to pull from Zeitgeist...

 

It's not about logic, contradictions or science - it is just a simple matter of faith. If and when Jesus chooses to reveal Himself to you through His Holy Spirit then you will have faith.

[A Nonny Moose]

It's not about logic, contradictions or science - it is just a simple matter of faith. If and when Jesus chooses to reveal Himself to you through His Holy Spirit then you will have faith.

 

Quoted before you can edit.

 

No, it's absolutely about logic and contradictions. Christianity isn't a logical religion because of the contradictions, and now that it's been called out, you're just stating the Bible isn't relevant because the Bible contradicts yourself.

[Maxintosh]

you dont care about any of this

I care only about the truth, which is what you should care about. Unfortunately the fear that is detected in your response only proves what you can't back your beliefs up with scientifically documented facts. Name calling won't help you. Repeating the same religious dogma, rhetoric and psychobabble won't help you. Only the truth will help you. The sooner you become open minded, the sooner you will be able to learn the truth with any topic matter.

 

Actually, outside of the Bible and one source proven to be a hoax, there is absolutely no historical proof of Jesus' existence

THANK YOU Nonny Moose for injecting some common sense and logic into this debate! I only ask that you try to understand that most of these people literally can't help themselves. They cannot construe the facts and are quite literally programed from toddler-ship to think the way that they do. Some were punished if they disagreed with their religious parents, and fear, especially to a child, is a powerful influencer. So thank you for defending the facts and the truth, but please try and understand why they are like they are

[tomtefar]

To nebulOSX (see post 36) as a comment on the question "Even you people who aren't Christians must think that what he did was amazing?":

 

Yes, I do agree, being "good" and doing "good deeds" is something to strive for in life. I have this to say on the topic of "being good":

 

1) I'm an atheist (that is, I lack a supernatural/religious belief/faith) and to me there just seems to be so many other stories that are based on the same theme (of being good that is). To me there is basically no difference between the story of Jesus being good or the story of Superman doing good deeds. To explain it a bit lets take me and my wife as an example. I'm a bit of a sci-fi nerd whereas she is not. In fact she has never really watched any sci-fi. I have tried to explain things to her, how the center-piece story of basically every Star Trek (original and Next Gen at least) episode/movie centers on what it means to be human/moral/good, how some sci-fi is just techno-babble and how some is scientifically inspiring (I'm also a PhD in engineering, go figure). But to her all sci-fi remains just a big mix of the same thing: bad shows set in a rainy dark future/space with a lot of techno-babble (this we do agree upon ). This is how I view religious stories and the story of Superman. They are just stories (I can't deny one's had a bigger impact on human history though). I do however recognize the need in humanity to have "carriers of cultural history, morals and ethics", and as such again a lot of stories are good to have (e.g. the bible and Superman). So when you write "Even you people who aren't Christians must think that what he did was amazing?" my answer is not "yes", but rather "yes, it is a story about a good man" (since I don't think he did it).

 

 

2) It is quite common among religious people to say that atheists can't be moral. Paraphrasing: "How can they be, if they have no moral code (i.e. holy scripture)???" I live in a country where people pay between 33 and 50% income tax, where we have organized our society to care for everyone with free education (up to and including university, including foreigners), free dental care (up to 20 and there after it is subsidized quite heavily), free care in hospitals for everyone, a social safety net that gives you up to 80% of your previous salary should you run out of a job, and a governmental pension system so you do not run the risk of your old company going bankrupt and you ending up having nothing to live off of at the end of your life. This is what the most non-believing country (80% non-believers I think I read somewhere) in the world chooses to do with it's combined pool of money: taking care of each other. And not just each other, we have now roughly 11% of our population being made up of refugees that we willingly let in to our country. On top of this I have since for the last 15 years been giving money monthly to Amnesty international, UN's save the children, Greenpeace and various other organizations less regularly. Just the other month I met this African guy at the airport that lost his wallet/tickets/passport as he was flying to Africa (sorry, can't remember the specific country at the moment). He really needed to get in touch with his bank to block his credit cards etc. I gave him roughly 40 USD to make the phone calls and my sandwich since he was hungry.

 

Ok, sorry about the rant, my point is: humans do not need a religious faith or religious stories to be good. In fact "goodness" arises in all ordered societies on its own accord just because people understand that you can get more out of life by cooperating (and that it feels good to see a smile on someones face). If you study some anthropology you will see that social rules, ethics and morals have been around (in various formats, as is the case around the world even today) since long before any modern day religion (modern? well lets say 4000 years). In fact in biology, when higher functioning (i.e. not ants and such) animal societies are studied, it is often found that there is a certain percentage of "hawks" (those who do not follow the established social rules and instead pray on others) and of "doves" (those who do play by the established rules, i.e. are "moral"). If there are too many "hawks" the society of the animals becomes instable. It seems it is somewhat self-regulatory since there is a maximum of work/stuff/food that can be stolen (it naturally has to be lower than what is produced through "real honest work").

 

However you are correct in that stories has been, and still are, a primary tool for how we humans relay information (on social rules etc) between us and over generations. Stories are important in that sense.

 

My

 

 

P.S.

Oh yeah, if you live in the US, you should take a look at the percentage of atheists in the society and compare it to the percentage of atheists in your jails. You will find a somewhat skewed distribution. Does not really fit with the "atheist aren't moral" rant.

P.P.S

If you choose to believe in something or nothing, that is entirely up to you. However if you choose to have that supernatural belief pour over into the political arena and have beliefs not founded in things that can be methodically supported by independent people be a basis for laws that will have an impact on my life I will make it my case to criticize your arguments and try to tear it apart. This is however not the topic here today.

P.P.P.S Thank you all, I've found this thread to be quite educational.

[martin15s]

Quoted before you can edit.

 

No, it's absolutely about logic and contradictions. Christianity isn't a logical religion because of the contradictions, and now that it's been called out, you're just stating the Bible isn't relevant because the Bible contradicts yourself.

 

Please do not misquote me. I did not say that the Bible was irrelevant because of contradictions -I said that it all comes down to a simple matter of faith. God gave mankind freewill - to be able to think for ourselves - I just know that when day of judgement arrives I will have nothing to fear.

[siliconpie]

Well, personally, yes, I think Mormons are Christians. They've got the same God as all of you, and the same saviour.

But then again, I'm atheist and count Jews as being almost Christian. You've also got the same god, and half your holy book is the same...

[A Nonny Moose]

Please do not misquote me. I did not say that the Bible was irrelevant because of contradictions -I said that it all comes down to a simple matter of faith. God gave mankind freewill - to be able to think for ourselves - I just know that when day of judgement arrives I will have nothing to fear.

 

You said:

 

It's not about logic, contradictions or science - it is just a simple matter of faith.

 

Which means the Bible doesn't matter since it's full of contradictions--only your faith does. Your entire faith, though, is based upon a book that is supposedly "infallible" yet full of contradictions. So in quoting you, I made sure you couldn't pull a ninja edit there and say the Bible does matter, even with its contradictions.

 

Your entire faith is based upon a man who we can't even prove existed. Now the Romans were very good historians and you would think that somebody with the sheer amount of miraculous feats of Jesus (Who is really just a retelling of Zoroaster, Horus, and many other gods and godlings before him) would make it into their records. Seriously, a guy who could walk on water and turn water into wine and replicate food DIDN'T MAKE IT INTO THE HISTORY BOOKS? Do you not see the inherent problem with this?

[djet]

So your point Nonny is that anyone who does not believe in what you say is ignorant? You are accusing martin of being simple-minded while you are taking the same opinion towards Mark 5. Yes Jesus could have very easily said, "Zap!" and knocked the demon out of the man, but he chose a method demonstrating the vileness of the demon and through his removal of it, his power to save. Now you have simply picked out a verse of the Bible, taken it down word for word without actually critically thinking, ironically what you expect us as Christians to do. For example, interpret the Song of Solomon Chapter 4 literally:

 

1 How beautiful you are, my darling!

Oh, how beautiful!

Your eyes behind your veil are doves.

Your hair is like a flock of goats

descending from Mount Gilead.

2 Your teeth are like a flock of sheep just shorn,

coming up from the washing.

Each has its twin;

not one of them is alone.

 

3 Your lips are like a scarlet ribbon;

your mouth is lovely.

Your temples behind your veil

are like the halves of a pomegranate.

 

4 Your neck is like the tower of David,

built with elegance [a] ;

on it hang a thousand shields,

all of them shields of warriors.

 

5 Your two breasts are like two fawns,

like twin fawns of a gazelle

that browse among the lilies.

 

6 Until the day breaks

and the shadows flee,

I will go to the mountain of myrrh

and to the hill of incense.

 

7 All beautiful you are, my darling;

there is no flaw in you.

 

8 Come with me from Lebanon, my bride,

come with me from Lebanon.

Descend from the crest of Amana,

from the top of Senir, the summit of Hermon,

from the lions' dens

and the mountain haunts of the leopards.

 

9 You have stolen my heart, my sister, my bride;

you have stolen my heart

with one glance of your eyes,

with one jewel of your necklace.

 

10 How delightful is your love, my sister, my bride!

How much more pleasing is your love than wine,

and the fragrance of your perfume than any spice!

 

11 Your lips drop sweetness as the honeycomb, my bride;

milk and honey are under your tongue.

The fragrance of your garments is like that of Lebanon.

 

12 You are a garden locked up, my sister, my bride;

you are a spring enclosed, a sealed fountain.

 

13 Your plants are an orchard of pomegranates

with choice fruits,

with henna and nard,

 

14 nard and saffron,

calamus and cinnamon,

with every kind of incense tree,

with myrrh and aloes

and all the finest spices.

 

15 You are a garden fountain,

a well of flowing water

streaming down from Lebanon.

 

If you do, it's not that pretty:

 

 

 

What we mean when we say "It's not about logic, it's about faith," is that we didn't sit down one day, make a pros and cons of Christianity and then BAM! decided that we're going to be Christian. Now I grew up in the Bible Belt of the South and went to church on sundays, and on and on. But personally, I believed it was a whole lot of bunk that older people did cause they were too stupid to have any real fun. It wasn't until I was in my mid-teens and my mother started a profound problem with alcoholism that I started to "wake up and smell the roses" as you might say. I was considering two options at the time. I was either going to kill myself or kill her. (Sounds kinda crazy in retrospect). At that time I truly realized how much of a mess I had become and it certainly wasn't the knowledge that I might be all alone in the universe that turned me around. Now I don't tell you this to try to make you feel sorry for me or to flaunt my own abilities of self-reparation. I tell you it to remind you that it's not a bunch of brain-washed idiots, as most anti-Christians members of this forum believe, it's people who have realized [insert random overused Christian cliché about having something more to life. It's hard to explain it in a forum post.]

 

Now I have a simple question: What do you believe happens when you die?

[Maxintosh]

That is like saying:

 

Logical person - "1+1=2"

 

Illogical person - "no it's not, it's 5"

 

Logical person - "Everyone educated in the matter knows it is 2"

 

Illogical person - "So your point is that anyone who does not believe in what you say is ignorant?"