Jump to content

Gateways EFI models with Windows XP... how did THEY do it?


  • Please log in to reply
89 replies to this topic

#21
mk14

mk14

    InsanelyMac Protégé

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 52 posts
  • Location:Germany

Would a bootable install dvd for the Gateway 600 series do us any good? I'm trying to think of what properties would be changed between that and a generic install. Would the DVD just use legacy BIOS support and install regularly or would it require some extra EFI components to boot? If so, would a patched [to eradicate the error msg that says "this will only work on 600 series" ] dvd work for this? I'm really novice, i'm just throwing ideas out there.

Unless Gateway modified Windows XP to support EFI, GPT and UGA (which is extremely unlikely), this DVD is pretty much like any other computer's recovery disk.

What we would need is an image of the hidden EFI partition (first FAT-partition on the main hard drive) and a ROM dump of the EFI chip (or maybe an EFI update file). From these, someone may be able to extract the CSM module and the BIOS image.

#22
crazymonkeypants

crazymonkeypants

    InsanelyMac Protégé

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 69 posts

Exactly.
We need a custom BIOS to be dual flashed.... It's the only way.
Modifying EFI is out really.. Leave the EFI be, focus on getting a BIOS layer in there... Need ASM editors though!


CG, I wish you would take a few seconds to read and understand the issues at hand.

There is no way that an "ASM editor" (whatever you actually mean by that) is going to help you "dual flash" (whatever you think you mean by that) firmware on the Intel Macintosh systems.

If a "BIOS layer" were written, you wouldn't flash it anyway; as you've finally gleaned, modifying the Apple firmware isn't realistic, meaning that the only practical way such a layer could be invoked is to boot it like an OS (effectively a mirroring of the sample EFI bootable image that people have been playing with).

Unless Gateway modified Windows XP to support EFI, GPT and UGA (which is extremely unlikely), this DVD is pretty much like any other computer's recovery disk.

What we would need is an image of the hidden EFI partition (first FAT-partition on the main hard drive) and a ROM dump of the EFI chip (or maybe an EFI update file). From these, someone may be able to extract the CSM module and the BIOS image.


Assuming you're referring to the Gateway system, what good do you expect this to do you? The Gateway firmware isn't going to work, in any useful fashion, on an Apple system.

#23
Computer Guru

Computer Guru

    InsanelyMac Geek

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 112 posts
  • Location:Teh Great Middle East
  • Interests:Coding, Hacking, Cracking
That is not true
It can be reflashed by using a working EPROM chip from another iMac to boot, then after booting switching the chips and fixing the old one.

#24
crazymonkeypants

crazymonkeypants

    InsanelyMac Protégé

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 69 posts
What isn't true?

It's certainly not possible to "switch" chips in the fashion that you describe without a substantial investment in surface-mount rework gear.

Typically you would pull the flash part, copy it with a suitable programming device, then replace it with a socket so that you could repeat the process.

However, none of this has any relevance to what I wrote. The process by which the flash contents might be altered is well understood; the problem is that you're using words and concepts that you don't understand, and mixing them up in ways that don't actually mean anything.

#25
Swad

Swad

    Founder.

  • Administrators
  • 3,709 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago
There's no need to be condescending, crazymonkeypants. This is all uncharted waters in a lot of ways, so if we make mistakes along the way, that's fine.

The important part is brainstorming ideas that may or may not work. It's the discussion that counts.

#26
Computer Guru

Computer Guru

    InsanelyMac Geek

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 112 posts
  • Location:Teh Great Middle East
  • Interests:Coding, Hacking, Cracking
OK crazymonkeypants. I will clarify my post for your highness:

I own two 865PE motherboards for desktops. After messing with a unsuccessful homemade BIOS and flashing it to the mobo, I switched chips, the PC started, switched chips back, and ran the reflash utility, restarted, and both were working.

BIOS is loaded into the Memory I believe... The EPROM chips is just where it is stored while there is no power coursing through the memory chips to keep the data.

#27
crazymonkeypants

crazymonkeypants

    InsanelyMac Protégé

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 69 posts

There's no need to be condescending, crazymonkeypants. This is all uncharted waters in a lot of ways, so if we make mistakes along the way, that's fine.


It's not a case of condescension so much as I'm just tired of listening to people without a clue blathering on about this issue.

This is not something that can be "solved" by wild speculation; it's a practical engineering problem that can only be resolved with a good understanding of the issues involved.

Making mistakes and asking questions is one thing; I'm all for the education process or I wouldn't be posting in these threads in the first place. I just wish that a few people would blather less and ask/listen a little more.

#28
crazymonkeypants

crazymonkeypants

    InsanelyMac Protégé

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 69 posts

BIOS is loaded into the Memory I believe... The EPROM chips is just where it is stored while there is no power coursing through the memory chips to keep the data.


An important first step in understanding where you're falling down here would be to examine the word "believe" in the sentence above.

Belief is not useful in this context. What is required is knowledge.

I would encourage you to study closely the pictures of the iMac logic board that were posted some weeks back by a certain Japanese site. Pay close attention to anything that looks like an "EPROM" that might be conveniently removed from the board. You might also consider looking at any other board that Apple has designed in the last decade or so, to get a feel for how they feel about socketed firmware devices.

Since research isn't your strong point, I'll help you out with this and this.

A further step would be for you to search Apple's website for any signs of a firmware update tool that you might use in this endeavour.

Once you have armed yourself with a few facts in this fashion, you will be in a much better position to make statements about the relevance of your hypothesis. In general it's good to amass this sort of thing before rushing into print, as it gives you something to respond to all this pesky criticism with.

#29
bartron

bartron

    InsanelyMac Protégé

  • Just Joined
  • Pip
  • 3 posts
This is just me but I say all the dscussion and working out of how to get XP to boot will be moot soon enough. Now that Apple has cut the ties to BIOS the rest of the PC industry will follow and MS will eiter patch XP to boot on EFI mobos or Vista will be out...in the meantime, enjoy your shiny new mac running OS X as it should.

I find it amusing to witness so many people eager to get their PC's running intel OS X (hence this site was spawned) then as soon as the intel macs are out you want to run XP. Odd (or is it a case of 'because we can'?)

Bartron

#30
scousi

scousi

    InsanelyMac Sage

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 308 posts

This is just me but I say all the dscussion and working out of how to get XP to boot will be moot soon enough. Now that Apple has cut the ties to BIOS the rest of the PC industry will follow and MS will eiter patch XP to boot on EFI mobos or Vista will be out...in the meantime, enjoy your shiny new mac running OS X as it should.

I find it amusing to witness so many people eager to get their PC's running intel OS X (hence this site was spawned) then as soon as the intel macs are out you want to run XP. Odd (or is it a case of 'because we can'?)

Bartron

Wild rumor from this site:

www.macintouch.com

11:02 EST And finally, for what it's worth, this entertaining rumor from a friend:

For whatever this sketchy rumor is worth, I happened to be sitting at the same table of someone in the Macworld speaker's lounge who, with apparent authority, assured his rapt listeners that there would be an announcement from MicroSoft in 'early February' that Windows is running native on the Intel Macs.

#31
Swad

Swad

    Founder.

  • Administrators
  • 3,709 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago

This is just me but I say all the dscussion and working out of how to get XP to boot will be moot soon enough. Now that Apple has cut the ties to BIOS the rest of the PC industry will follow and MS will eiter patch XP to boot on EFI mobos or Vista will be out...in the meantime, enjoy your shiny new mac running OS X as it should.

I find it amusing to witness so many people eager to get their PC's running intel OS X (hence this site was spawned) then as soon as the intel macs are out you want to run XP. Odd (or is it a case of 'because we can'?)

Bartron


I think it's that a lot of people who originally hacked it for fun are actually planning on buying a Macintel.

But that's off topic. :)

#32
mk14

mk14

    InsanelyMac Protégé

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 52 posts
  • Location:Germany

Assuming you're referring to the Gateway system, what good do you expect this to do you? The Gateway firmware isn't going to work, in any useful fashion, on an Apple system.

It might work. Unlike BIOS, EFI is mostly the same on any system.
Flashing the Gateway's firmware onto the iMac might not work, but loading the Gateway's CSM module for EFI on the iMac may work.

#33
DeathChill

DeathChill

    InsanelyMac Sage

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 254 posts

No. The Apple and Gateway systems are completely different machines; neither the PEI component (early hardware initialisation) nor the drivers (the bulk of the interesting parts of DXE) would be cross-compatible.

On top of that, the EFI that Gateway used is a third-party effort which may or may not be based on the Tiano nee Intel codebase, so there may be even less in the way of architectural similarity.

It's like asking if you could put the engine out of a helicopter into a balloon. Sure, they're both flying machines, but the similarity stops right there.

Uh, every EFI thing would be based off of Tiano. Apple's is based off it, and if the CSM is a .efi module then it'd be easy to extract it (we've already extracted all 107 modules from Apple's EFI implementation) and possibly load it, but it'd probably take a bit of work.

#34
mk14

mk14

    InsanelyMac Protégé

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 52 posts
  • Location:Germany

if the CSM is a .efi module then it'd be easy to extract it

I don't know for sure that this is so, but I believe TianoCore's EFI package has a legacyboot.efi file.

If someone has access to one of those Gateway PCs: could you please extract all EFI modules and post a list of them?

we've already extracted all 107 modules from Apple's EFI implementation

Could you please post a list of these EFI modules in the forum?

#35
Computer Guru

Computer Guru

    InsanelyMac Geek

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 112 posts
  • Location:Teh Great Middle East
  • Interests:Coding, Hacking, Cracking
Am I the only one getting tired of all the flame?
This is an important topic :)

#36
crazymonkeypants

crazymonkeypants

    InsanelyMac Protégé

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 69 posts

Uh, every EFI thing would be based off of Tiano. Apple's is based off it, and if the CSM is a .efi module then it'd be easy to extract it (we've already extracted all 107 modules from Apple's EFI implementation) and possibly load it, but it'd probably take a bit of work.


Tiano is in a non-shipping state; it is unlikely that it will be product-ready for a long time to come.

As I pointed out in this thread, CSM is not just a "module" that you can load. It comprises an interface to existing, legacy BIOS code and that code.

There is no legacy BIOS code for the Apple Intel platforms. In addition, the interfaces to that code are not something that can be loaded at runtime; again, I encourage folks with the ability to look at the code that is present in the TianoCore EDK to get a better understanding of this.

I don't know for sure that this is so, but I believe TianoCore's EFI package has a legacyboot.efi file.


Here's this "belief" thing again. Why don't you go *look* ?

Here's a hint. The TianoCore folks do not distribute compiled objects; they distribute source code. The .efi suffix identifies a PE32+ binary compiled to run under EFI. Ergo, your chances of finding a "legacyboot.efi" file are pretty slim.

#37
mk14

mk14

    InsanelyMac Protégé

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 52 posts
  • Location:Germany

As I pointed out in this thread, CSM is not just a "module" that you can load. It comprises an interface to existing, legacy BIOS code and that code.

Hmm, if that's true, I guess there is no way to re-integrate CSM into EFI.
Flashing another Intel 945 motherboard's firmware to the Intel iMac might work??? If not, we'll have to wait for Windows Vista.

Apple Intel platforms

Just plain Intel platform. The iMac uses a standard Intel motherbord.

Here's a hint. The TianoCore folks do not distribute compiled objects; they distribute source code. The .efi suffix identifies a PE32+ binary compiled to run under EFI. Ergo, your chances of finding a "legacyboot.efi" file are pretty slim.

Actually, there is a file legacyboot.efi in the TianoCore package! Go see yourself.

#38
crazymonkeypants

crazymonkeypants

    InsanelyMac Protégé

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 69 posts

Hmm, if that's true, I guess there is no way to re-integrate CSM into EFI.
Flashing another Intel 945 motherboard's firmware to the Intel iMac might work??? If not, we'll have to wait for Windows Vista.


For the n-th time, no, it will not work.

Just plain Intel platform. The iMac uses a standard Intel motherbord.


No, it does not. Go look at the images I linked above. Does that look like a "standard Intel motherboard" to you?

Actually, there is a file legacyboot.efi in the TianoCore package! Go see yourself.


I believe that I've downloaded everything the TianoCore folks have to offer; would you mind posting a link to the download in which you saw this?

Regardless, the points I've made previously regarding the integration issues with CSM stand; it's not a practical undertaking.

#39
lofiunico

lofiunico

    InsanelyMac Protégé

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 19 posts
I have access to one of those machines. I get the feeling they're semi-rare considering the place I found them used to have 6 and 5 blew up.

I'm pretty much a novice when it comes to this type of stuff, but i suppose i could back up the EFI partition to something. It couldn't be that big, most BIOS were only a couple of MB, right? I didn't even know EFI ran off of a "partition" if that gives you much of a concept of how much I know.

Would anyone know how to do a ROM dump for an EFI system? (I could handle BIOS, but I would imagine EFI is different). I can't even seem to find a shell in the EFI configuration. Wasn't that supposed to one of the bigger advantages? What would be the best way to do this?

If someone walks me through this I can share any information necessary. I'm willing to do what I can to make this project successful. Please stop flaming. I am not making any kind of speculation about how this would be done, just willing to offer my resources to anyone who wants to give this a shot.

#40
BlueTrance

BlueTrance

    InsanelyMac Protégé

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 10 posts
Hi again,
I've been surfing a little bit and I have found something that I don't remember if you have talked about it already (so if you have, sorry, don't flame me)
http://support.gatew...3&uid=113110586

That's a download link for a Gateway 610 BIOS Update. Are there Gateway 610 computers without EFI but only BIOS? Or they just call them all BIOS?
Well, anyway that's the link and I hope we can get something from it.

There are also chipset drivers, but they aren't very useful:
http://support.gatew...2&uid=113110966


By the way... ;) Is there some sort of IRC room of OSX86project? That way it might be useful have some encounters between those who own a new iMac (mine is coming next week, I guess) and those who want to help. Just my :)

Well, that's all, tell me if can we get something from the BIOS dump





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

© 2014 InsanelyMac  |   News  |   Forum  |   Downloads  |   OSx86 Wiki  |   Mac Netbook  |   PHP hosting by CatN  |   Designed by Ed Gain  |   Logo by irfan  |   Privacy Policy