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#61
tomozj

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The only source of income I have now is people that give me money for my birthday ect. All of that money has been dumped into my car (mainly paint, and a body kit) and really Adobe, you most definately want me to have a nice car right?


I think Adobe would say "buy a car, and make it nice in PHOTOSHOP! :D"

P.S. After looking at Neo's post #53 I signed up for a free 15 day trial to the Urge music service from Microsoft, then I downloaded as much as I could, then I removed the DRMs. Sorry Microshaft.

O ya I then reformated and did it again.


Brilliant :P


I download software... it's so easy and you get to do so much more. If I had the money then I'd consider it, but I'm not sure. I'd like buying small apps like PSPWare and Acquisition, because they are made by developers who have worked hard. Adobe have a big team to make their applications. And Microsoft are a joke. Paying for beta testing?!!??!?! :(

-tj

#62
aldimeneira

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Why should one feel guilty when he "pirates" his own OEM copy of Windows XP to run it on his new shiny Macbook? As long as I know each OEM copy of Windows is legally bound to the system you bought it with, but why suold one pay for the same thing over and over again just because he decided to change the hardware it runs on?

Think of the difference in pricing between the various versions of Windows or Microsoft Office. Isn't that plain stolen money, considering that probably no real "different versions" exist until the developement process is almost over? Don't you feel you have the RIGHT to obtain the latest version of a particular software without paying for it, expecially when the only differences are bug corrections? Why should one pay an extra to have an error free app? If I buy something I expect it to work just as it is advertised to and in the majority of cases I know I can return it and have it changed with something functional if it isn't working out of the box. With software you often have to pay if you want buggy software to become functional... Doesn't it make you feel robbed of your money?


Yeah, software upgrades should be free (after spending $1000+ for Adobe CS upgrades shouldn't cost more than $50).

(...)

Obviously stealing from the first lot is great. Do it all the time. Everyday. And encourage everyone you know to do it as well. Burn this software onto CD's and DVD's and distribute it to all of your friends. It is your duty as a software pirate to share this software.

(...)


To preserve (near) monopolies?

#63
aldimeneira

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(...)
Children cant afford Final Cut Pro or the Adobe Creative studio...
(...)


But they don't need them. Photoshop is used by anyone and his/her dog without them being designers or artists. GIMP is much more apropiate for "light" use (or PS elements, or PSP). Although it shouldn't cost more than $400... even for biz

There is a definite irony. People want to use MS Office. Show them OpenOffice (which has probably 90% of the MS features) and they refuse to use it. Why? Because they feel like they absolutely need MS Office and will steal it if they can't afford it.

Same thing with Final Cut. A LOT of good things can be done with iMovie, which is only $79 and has an extensive plugin network (many of which cost additional $$$, but I digress here). NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, they want Final Cut...

People see the less expensive things as inferior (simply based on the price alone) and so don't even think of them as options. This fundamental thinking needs to change before software stealing even begins to slow down.

Let's not even go into games, which are mondo cheap compared to something like Office and are still stolen. Then they complain because their stolen game can't connect to the online arena. Or into music stealing, I MEAN SHARING...

Let's face it. Consumers just can't be trusted anymore.


You are right with more accesible/economical software being suitable for some users. But even if "consumers just can't be trusted anymore" neither does "producers can be trusted"... like root-kit Sony just to name one.

#64
arbitrarycode

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One thing I really can't stand is the asinine arguments from amoral corporations which try to use shaming tactics to deter piracy! WTF! In their world, "business is war", its the law of the jungle, etc, but they expect others to be beholden to "morality"?? {censored}.

#65
johnnytluxury

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Ok, heres my thing, Ive no shame in admitting Ive pirated well over 99% of my software fopr the last few years or so. I dont need an excuse as i feel it makes no difference to those that are well concerned. They see the black and white of it all. Cool. But Ive had a serious problem with large companies since way back in the day; a case in particular, not of the software variety but the points are the same, is one dealing with the old 56k modems. I remember when the hype was big about them and I of course wanted to squeeze all i could from my communications line, so i bought one. Of course i got home to find out that i could only connect at 38.5k, 41.2k, and on a good day, 48k. Huh? So I got with my ISP and we went on and on, it wasnt their fault of course, it was my modem, then it was my modems drivers, then it was my version of Windows. Mind you, this was before people had a good knowledge of the 56k limitations, this was when you could get 56k in ISA card format only! After a good year of this, I had it set in my mind to set up a class action lawsuit, because there wasnt just me, but hordes of others with the same issues, and we needed resolve! How can any company, hardware software, service providers, advertise something that wasnt true? They had legals behind them, thats how. And thats was the rub in the poeple vs the corporation. Their power in legal counsel alone made them the juggernaut we could go up against. What they pay their legal aide is destructive to all that all that oppose. Imagine your neighbor cutting your tree down because there was a discrepancy with the zoning agreement. If you were to take this to court, youd actually have a fighting chance, because you would have roughly the same legal strength of him. Now imagine if your neighbor was Donald Trump. Somehow the fight wouldnt be the same, no matter who was in the wrong or right.
I didnt mean to go on a tangent, but the idea is the same when it comes to how i feel about pirating. Software companies consistantly take us for rides; false advertising, unreturned rebates, shall i even mention customer support? But we have little to no recourse due to the fact that they have incredible legal standing. How often do you see class action suits that involve genral displeasure with a companines sales policy? Never. With this in mind, I can tell you i have no desire to play the BBB game with any company. Ive been made a number, and my dollars mean nothing more than revenue for the vast majority of those involved with software sales. Find me a mom and pop that gives a damn, and Ill show it right back. Until then, Ill make the hastiest of judgements and say almost all companies could care less about us, no matter how much money they donate to Red Cross, or fund inner city spelling bees. I work in a corporation right now, and I hate to shatter peoples ideals but there really aint a rosy side to life when theres mouths to feed and power to gain.

#66
johnnytluxury

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Add this to the lot. My boys a big fligt sim fan, so hesigns up for this Flight Sim X promo, where he gets the game, a 6 mo subs to a flight magazine, and some "flight sim Defrag" utility (dont ask..). All for the PRE SALE price of $70 (some $20 over the price of FSX alone...) While he waits and wait and waits, I happened to find FSX last mo and dl'd it, thinking Id give it to him. After a mo and a half of waiting he finally gets an email, MS telling him that the retailer they are doing this through is only gonna get 100 copies this mo, and that if he wants his money back he should call some special number (not toll free) and plead (???) his case. Kiddin me? And I got the damn game in hands? Piracy is really bad when you actually spend the money for a presale, and still dont get it in time! How can one refuse piracy at that point? Listen Im not saying the world should go to anarchy, but i will say this: if software companies really want piracy to diminish, they better start investing in their customers. Simple.

#67
aliquis

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Here's what i have to say, and by no means do i declare it ethical. I have never, will never, and hope no one else here shoplifts from stores. I do find it a lot worse to steal physically from stores for a couple reasons, which i don't have time to explain now. I find that stealing via torrent or whatever else is not exactly going out of your way and it is too tempting to pass up. Stealing in general is not right but I'd much rather be known as an internet pirate than a office max thief or something to that idea. As a young person without a job i do believe there is a bigger temtation to do this. I have told myself that once i have an actual full time job i will begin to stop piracy all together. All in all i don't feel good about torrenting stuff but there arent a whole lot of other options. It's hard to take a stance on something you disagree with but go ahead and do it.

But i do agree with small shareware stuff like dtm said.

EDIT: I do know one person who has bought CS2 and i personally have bought Adpbe Elements.

Well, the difference is obviously that when stealing over the Internet the media/disc/... isn't taken from someone so compared to a store the "box" would remain in the store and they could still sell it.

But the price of a dvd in a paperbox or a movie in a case in a store, the production cost for each additional one that is, is probably near to none so you could almost just as good steal the product from a store instead.

What you do pay for is the information on the media, whatever it's software, music or movies. If noone pays a lot of developers/artists/actors will stop with their work and there won't be so much software, music or movies.

So I would say if you really want the product and think it would be worth something for you, buy it, atleast if the price is reasonable.

I can understand if someone who just wanna resize images installes Photoshop CS2 without paying thought, the task they will do with it isn't advanced enough/worth paying $1000.

In the case for Windows atleast I don't wanna run it, all I need it for is running some apps which might not be available in another OS I use, and in the end that is all Microsofts monopoly fault so :2cents:

I wanna pay for OS X since it will give me a UNIX without all the trouble, and that is worth plenty to me.

I'm less torn than others, but there is a little tear. I dislike it period and wish it just wouldn't happen. There are many kinds of software piracy (and this came from Micrososft's pages):

End-User Copying: When users copy software without appropriate licensing for each copy. I think we've all been guilty of this at some time or another. Most of the time, though, companies don't want to try and find someone who made a copy for the desktop and one for the laptop (it's only when you install like 23895670245 copies that someone will find you). This is one of the biggest arguments that will present itself here in terms of how much is really tolerable to the software industry and to end users.

Hard-Disk Loading: Practiced by dishonest computer system builders who sell PCs with illicit software preinstalled. Dealers use one legally acquired copy illegally for installation on many machines. Much worse than End-User, and I think we can all agree this shouldn't be tolerated.

Counterfeiting: Software piracy on a grand scale, in which software and its packaging is illegally duplicated, often by organized crime rings, then redistributed as supposedly legal products. Again, bad bad bad, and I think we can all agree on this one too.

Online: This form of piracy occurs when copyrighted software is downloaded by a user connected via a modem to the Internet without the express permission of the copyright owner. This would cover warez sites also, and it presents itself with a problem also. As we all know full screen in QuickTime is only available as a Pro ($29.95) option. Most users only want that one feature, as video editing is done in iMovie or Final Cut. Why pay for just one feature when poor, innocent Dawn M. Fredette gave away her QuickTime Pro serial number for everyone to use? This is especially sticky when you're only using one feature of said software.

License Misuse: Software distributed under special discount licenses, either to high-volume customers, computer manufacturers, or academic institutions, that is then redistributed to others who do not hold or qualify for these licenses. This one has a lot of subsets and is well opened to debate also.

If I am allowed to say what I think about all those cases I would say:

End-User Copying:
Ok enough, atleast you have bought the software, you probably doesn't use both machines at the same time, and so on.

Hard-Disk Loading:
Stealing someone else work and profiting from it! Bad!

Counterfeiting:
Look above, bad!

Online:
I have a harder time with this one, as I said before if you only have "limited intrest", would never buy the software if there was no copy available, only do it because you can, and so on, I think it's reasonable ok.
So if there are some game which cost $100 which you will probably only play for 2 hours, then I think it's quite ok. If it's stuff like Final Cut and you will just add a title for your digital camera video, I to think it's ok.
But if you work professionally with FC or are a dedicated gamer or really want to run OS X I think you should show your support and pay for it.

License Misuse:
As bad as 2 and 3.

#68
lane

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Software Piracy actually helps Adobe and Microsoft maintain a strong user base by allowing young people to educate themselves and become users for life, at one time or another its likely they will recommend that those products be purchased or be the purchaser themselves.

#69
aliquis

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Software Piracy actually helps Adobe and Microsoft maintain a strong user base by allowing young people to educate themselves and become users for life, at one time or another its likely they will recommend that those products be purchased or be the purchaser themselves.

True, without people pirating Windows and Office many wouldn't be able to afford them and would look for alternatives, Microsofts market share would drop and if it droped enough schools/governments/.. could make the switch aswell, then there would be no reason for students/... to get the product in the first place, and well. We would have a healthy market where the best product win instead of the most used one.

So piracy is good for Microsoft and Adobe in that it make sure the alternatives will be given less of a chance and someone will make sure to buy their products.

In the same way pirating OS X could lead to more OS X users, and if those actually buy some software, or even better develop some, more third party applications, which means more value in OS X, which means more sales, which ..
On the other hand a copy of OS X doesn't bring as much money to Apple as a legal version would, and it doesn't support future development as much.

#70
kjur

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Hi all!
Very interesting discussion.
I realized a few years ago that most of application I can replace with other freeware software. Since that time I really use lots of freeware. Now also on OS X (which by the way is illegal.... :D ).
Actually only professional software like Photoshop (if you use at least 50% of its features) or Pro Audio software cannot be replaced by freeware.
Obviously you can download everything, but if you use it to teach or train yourself that's not too bad. But I guess if you earn money on that this is not good (I mean if webmaster design websites and makes them on stolen software).
Normlly for private use you don't need Pro versions, usually Lite version are OK for most things we do.
That's my point of view.

#71
aliquis

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Hi all!
Very interesting discussion.
I realized a few years ago that most of application I can replace with other freeware software. Since that time I really use lots of freeware. Now also on OS X (which by the way is illegal.... :D ).
Actually only professional software like Photoshop (if you use at least 50% of its features) or Pro Audio software cannot be replaced by freeware.
Obviously you can download everything, but if you use it to teach or train yourself that's not too bad. But I guess if you earn money on that this is not good (I mean if webmaster design websites and makes them on stolen software).
Normlly for private use you don't need Pro versions, usually Lite version are OK for most things we do.
That's my point of view.

Yeah, but free software seem to succeed best when it is products which everyone use, say window manager, shell, terminal, browser, e-mailclient, IM, editors, mp3- and video-players but when you start to look for more professional applications they are almost only there for programming and network administration. You won't find really good programs for making movies, sound, graphics, dvds, websites. I haven't even found a single good image browser, there are quite a few which are "decent", but none as good as picasa and if iPhoto is as good as picasa iPhoto (I have never used iPhoto since I don't own a mac, yet.)

#72
kjur

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maybe is better to use something 'descent' than steal something (i.e. software). i know you have own habits, keyboard shortcuts, but it can be changed, like i did.
that's exactly the same like with cars - if you don't have money for mercedes you buy something cheaper.

#73
br0adband

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Software Piracy actually helps Adobe and Microsoft maintain a strong user base by allowing young people to educate themselves and become users for life, at one time or another its likely they will recommend that those products be purchased or be the purchaser themselves.



/me giggles himself into a fit over that statement.

Talk about tangential rationalization, good lord. "Let my kids smoke dope at an early age to see how it messes them up so that later on they'll be good parents... sure. Hell, my son already said he wants to become a Chemical Engineer, ain't that a hoot? Guess I'll have to become a distributor to pay for his education, though..."

The lengths people will go to when it comes to justifying doing stuff that is just wrong is astonishing. I'm not saying anything about the legality here, because as we all know the Intarweb is an international worldwide thing soooo, it'll get into the whole "it's not illegal here to copy software and download it" idiotic debate.

Common sense seems to have just taken a break from this reality, and morals went along as a castaway in a handbag with it.

bb

#74
Jacob Seaton

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If developers / corporations priced software reasonably... I would MAYBE buy software. But, as of now, I don't have a good enough reason to justify spending that kind of money for software I could just spend a little time to get for free.

#75
Metrogirl

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Good grief, is this debate still going on? The arguments are getting kind of circular, though, aren't they?

Seems we've got three basic views - "it's wrong, period", "it's wrong but it's ok because...", and "it's fine, what's the fuss about?". And probably more than a few hypocrites who subscribe to one view but practice another.

I'm tempted to close this thread because I think everything that can be said has been, but I'll be nice and leave it open a little longer in case there is some stunning new revelation that no-one has thought of yet.

Oh, and last week I grabbed a certain application complete with keygen from a torrent site, installed it, and I'm using it. And I could afford to buy it. Why did I go down the illegal route? Because a year or so ago I did the honest thing and paid for the previous version, but now the publishers have released an upgrade, dropped support for my version and seriously expect me to pay close on the full purchase price all over again. Not even a reasonable discount. That made me sufficiently annoyed to want to screw them over. Wrong? Yes. Feeling guilty? No. Nuff said.

#76
mac.nub

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Firstly, let me say that I am a Christian, and have very strong beliefs in the faith - for example I would not ever have sex outside of marriage - but could never be classed as an "extremist" Christian. A believer, and an extremist are very different things. My father is a police officer, and I have been a Christian for as long as I can remember. But anyway I'll get to the point before I get off topic.

Anyway, I share the views of a few other people here, basically - if you can afford it (at least to a certain extent) - buy it! I would especially be inclined to support small-scale developers and Open-Source projects.

I have a very strong morale sense or right and wrong. I would never go into a shop and steal something, I would never steal anything physically.

However, I have absolutely no problem in downloading programs from large corporations, that I can not afford.

Quite simply, I do not class it as "stealing", sure it may be violating copyright laws, but the copyright laws in the UK are quite simply ridiculous, I mean it's against the law to copy a CD to your computer, or an MP3 player period. In other words, replicating or downloading - for personal use - a load of expensive 1's and 0's that you can't afford is not stealing in my opinion.

Anyway, that's just how I see it. I fully accept that others have an opinion that it is wrong, but I am a student, will be 21,000 (Aproximately $39,660) in debt by the time I leave university or something around that amount, so a bit of software I can't afford but need doesn't come out top on the list of my purchases.

#77
icey-ice-ice

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it's like borrowin' a book from the library or showing movies in public.

#78
GBK.Xscape

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omg guys are we reallying trying to justify stealing? im not saying that i dont do it but gosh, just stop debating over a topic that really cant be argued, you can try to justify murder but it is still bad, and doing the same with stealing software isnt gonna make any difference.

#79
MacMoof

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I think people should be paid for their work.

If you like or use an application or OS, then you should pay for it.

I don't agree with some of the BS you sometimes find in the EULA.. for instance, if I have a laptop and a desktop, and only use one or the other (not both at the same time) I think it's {censored} they expect you to buy a copy for each machine.

I think if I buy a copy of OSX, I should be able to put it on whatever computer I want. Granted, I don't expect it to actually WORK on my TRS-80 or Kaypro, but hey.. I paid for the software. If I can manage to get it to work on a PC, and paid for a copy of the OS, how is that 'stealing'?

That's like buying a music CD from Sony/BMG that you're only 'allowed' to play in Sony branded CD players.

Then there is the 'professional' software, like Adobe CS that has a $1,000 price tag.

Those products are targeted twards people who make money using that software. If some kid downloads a bootleg version of CS2 and uses it to crop his face on some body builders body, or edit his message board Avitar, I say go for it.. but if he's doing work with the software that he/she is getting paid for, then it's only right to actually buy the software.

The truth is, most folks with bootleg software are using it only because they were able to get it for free. They either wouldn't (or couldn't afford to) buy it.. so their use of that software doesn't mean any financial loss to the publisher.

Just like the osX86 scene. The people messing with OSX on PC's are, for the most part, PC people. Most aren't about to go out and pay $600 for an iMac sight unseen, so when they get OSX running on their Dell, Apple really isn't short anything.. because it's not like they're loosing a sale.

In fact, many people find they like OSX so much, their next computer purchase IS a Mac.

#80
Zealot

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if have to pay for every software that i have used .i should have like 12.000 dollars .yes three zeros on that.
On the other hand i live in southamerica so its almost like i have to get it via torrent or wathever because software, movies,music they always release them delayed (like 4 months). So do i have choices to get what i cannot get legally?i really think not.

greetings.





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