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Israel and Palestine


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#581
mnissan

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I am a fromer israeli infantry soldier, not long out of the service in the o.c.'s
90% of all palastiniens i've encouterd were wounderfull people.
10% ruin it for the rest of them...

it seems palastine has the same problem as most arab nations had or are still having, depends on which one.
while israel in 50 years bloomed and created technology, strong economy, water food and employment for everyone in a god-forsakend desert. arabs here did, well, nothing in their thousands of years...
who was here first? no one can really tell, who has claim? probably both sides...
one nation accepts that and is making room and WAS making efforts for the other nation to rise and to be a peacefull nation that would co-exist with it. one doesn't.
one nation targets civillians justifying it in all kinds of ways, only acting against military targets when they have to, meaning when a full blockade is in affect - which is the very reason the blockade exists.
one nation took two weeks to astablish a goverment and to start building itself while its being attacked by six arab nations and has very limited resources, the other has had two years, funds from israel (yes that happend, look it up), free water and electricity from israel and was even provided with small arms for inner peacekeeping. the first prosperd, the other turned against itself and is killing its own civillians at a rate israel never would have done no matter what would happen, simply because of inner conflicts over power.
an entire culture that relies on power and oppression with no leader is bound to fall - or not to rise in the first place...
as for israel's blame in all the killing, hipothetically if palastinians were to be removed - again HIPOTHETICALLY, i belive there would be peace, israelies dont usually kill each other... then again if israel was taken out of the equation arabs would keep on butchering each other, just as they are doing today in lebanon, seria, iraq, iran, pakistan, kordistan and other developing arab nations - that not being on the news doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
right now, at this very day and age, there are about a doesn ethnical cleansings taking place, about eight in africa and another six in those nations mentioned above. shiay vrs suni for the most part (the two major arab-muslim factions).
hizbollah is shiay and palatine is suni (or was it the other way around) and one side hates the other, the only thing that united them was they're mutual fanaticisem for being "conqured" or deprived of their land, if they had won, which really couldn't have been an option in the first place, hizbollah would then continue to fight palastinians to rule over them - deny it all you want, you know its true, pick up a history book.

why do we study history?
so we would stop killing each other.
and a an israeli jew, ma'a salam'e, my muslim brothers, there is a future for all of us.

Edited by mnissan, 01 February 2007 - 08:09 PM.


#582
gwprod12

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The majority of people want food, shelter, peace and prosperity. That's the key to anyone's heart.

#583
one_7

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@yossicl..explain why there are rabbis that don't support jews in palestine??

i read it before in a website..but would like to hear from your point of view..

Edited by hazwan, 03 February 2007 - 11:29 PM.


#584
steadybootleggin

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yo there is a documentry called " occupation 101 " and you ( anyone ) should watch it, then after that you'll see how that land was stollen.... i'm niether jew nor muslem ( or any other " bar from star wars type character " )... sorry but i live in nyc and it is getting to the point that you need a passport just to go into brooklyn!!!



oh yeah.... i'm a native staten islander.... my people stole/occupied this land a little while back.. and where are those we stole it from today??

#585
Krishna21

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Why should we even debate for this..why can't we all get along. All races are unique in their own way, they shouldn't be fighting..

why don't we all have a cup of coffee and just meet at one place and talk :P

#586
Generic George

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If you look at 3 major soures of terrorism in the world, you will find Northern Ireland, Israel/Pakestine, and India/Pakistan.

All three situations were caused by the UK (and USA with israel) splitting up existing countries due to religious differences. All three caused the main sources of terrorism we know today.


You really need to study some more history and stop listening to propaganda. But I've heard this particular rant several times before.

The Partition of India was not something forced by the British against the will of the population. Could it have been handled better, sure, the UK does tend to be rather ham handed with these things. But it was driven by forces in India. It was not a simple event and nobody has clean hands on it.

Northern Ireland hasn't been a major source of terrorism for nearly 20 yrs now and "The Troubles" (the main period of terrorism) only lasted for roughly 30 years to begin with.

I'm new here, so forgive me for not reading the rest of this 30 page article! But as far as my views go, Israel shouldn't have been created in the first place. It was a massive mistake. What is then criminal is to let the essentially occupying force to be armed to the teeth and force the people living in the new israel into what can easily be likened to concentration camps of a lesser degree - with israel imposing crippling blockages on gaza.


Somehow these sorts of rants never seem to include the fact that the Palestinians outside Israel have been used and abused by all of the arab "patrons" to forge them into a weapon against Israel. They've never let the Palestinians assimilate or become citizens, they've been forced to live in squalid refugee camps by the arabs instead of living as part of the population.

None of this justifies what Israel has done, but there is nearly as much Palestinian blood on their arab "brothers" hands.

It also illustrates the essentially two faced nature of this sort of position. Anything the Israelis do is bad and awful, but the exact same kinds of actions and worse by the Palestinians or the arabs is never mentioned or is viewed as "legitimate". Israel killing a Hamas leader, someone who's a bloody handed terrorist and accidentally killing some civilians that these guys are using as human shields, is an intolerable outrage and a crime against humanity, but a palestinian suicide bomber deliberately killing israeli women and children for no other reason than to instill terror is NEVER condemned.

Israel is here to stay though, but they will likely never find peace through reasoning, due to their constant flouting of international law by continuing to operate and even increase the size of settlements.


And how scrupulous have the arabs and palestinians been about observing international laws? I seem to remember something about terrorism not being permissible. I never hear any complaints from people with this sort of position about the deliberate and continuous targeting of Israeli civilians. Hell, look at how Hamas and Fatah have acted towards each other.

Pot meet kettle.

Meanwhile, the palastinians have no right, as nobody does, to cause death and harm to innocent civilians, and they too are in the wrong.


Ah yes the obligatory token "and the Palestinians have done something bad", but you never go into any details of all the horrors they've committed over the years or their mad dog insistence on continuing to attack Israel instead of trying to work out a peace settlement. If you ever wondered why the Israelis don't trust the Palestinians, just try looking up the CHILDRENS SHOWS where they advocate suicide bombing and teach the children to hate/kill the Israelis.

Israel/Palastine could be solved within a week if it wern't for the Americans blind support for a country that operates secret nuclear weapons, flouts international laws, and uses disproportionate force in each of the recent wars. If Israel accepted they must share the land, share jerusalem, share resources, and that it cannot bully their neighbours, then the war and world terrorism would be over.


You are truly naive if you think this and not just because you think something like this can be "solved within a week". Or is the Arabs committing genocide against Israel what you had in mind when it comes to "solved within a week"?

For one thing they Palestinians have already been offered TWICE, what is essentially the only deal that is ever going to work (google the details of the proposal from the end of the Clinton administration). They've rejected it twice. They've rejected it because they weren't willing to give up things like the right of return that would amount to Israel being willing to commit suicide as a jewish state. Israel has permitted almost full access to the holy sites of Islam, while the arabs denied Israeli access to sites like the Wailing Wall when they had control over Jerusalem.

Israel has or perhaps had accepted the principle of land for peace, but 20 years of Palestinians going "Yes we will live together" in public and "Kill the jews" in private and to their own people. 20 years of continuing terrorist attacks against civilians, from people who were supposed to be at peace with them. 20 years of broken promises and continuing attacks have sapped a lot of the will to try and make peace. Worse it's fed the religious fanatics in Israel who are just as intolerant and inflexible as any Al Qaeda members and who aren't any more willing to make peace.

You mention disproportionate force, is that anything like everyone of Israel's neighbors attacking at once, with vast numerical supremacy to try and exterminate them?

As far as the nukes go, the Israeli's have tried to exterminate how many of their neighbors again vs how many of them have tried numerous time to exterminate them?

The bare fact that people like you always seem to gloss over is that Israel has been proven to be willing to make peace and keep that peace. The Arabs have repeatedly tried to commit genocide on them and it's still a wildly popular idea in the arab world. It's part of the wounded pride of the arabs that they aren't the kings of the world like they were back in the 12th century.

Frankly I'd love to see a bit more balance in US policy, but the basic fact is that we have on one side a staunch ally and the only real democracy in the Middle East on the other side we have people who support and applaud terrorism against the US and Israel.

The US has very little cause to love anyone in the Middle East. Not that we've given them much of any reason to love us either.

I'd really like to see the US stop supporting petty dictators for life as well and back some real democratic change in the Middle east. Unfortunately that's probably not happening anytime soon.

INot to mention that Israel is the only country in the world that now operates and ethnic cleansing policy buy deporting non-jewish people, the world needs to stop supporting such acts.


Sudan (arab genocide), China and Tibet, Rwanda, the former Yugoslavia. The arabs have tried several times to commit genocide against Israel. Are you really this ignorant of recent history? Have you been taught anything other than propaganda?

Let me put it this way. If the power position of Israel and the Palestinians or the arabs was reversed. Can you tell me with a straight face that they would wait even 24 hours before completely exterminating the Israelis?

I am in no way fond of a LOT of what Israel has done. Their religious fanatics are almost as bad as the Arab ones and the Israeli fanatic who assassinated Yitzhak Rabin, probably got his wish when he put Bumbling Numskulledyahoo (Benjamin Netanyahu) into office and quite possibly killed off the best chance for peace, but your little rant is a classic example of "They are so utterly bad and evil that we're blameless by comparison". Frankly I'm inclined to say "A plague on both your houses".

#587
yossicl

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Why is the Middle East Problem so intractable? Dennis Prager, nationally syndicated talk show host and best-selling author, answers that question in this thought-provoking video course.
Watch this and maybe you will learn something...



#588
yossicl

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jewish torah vs muslim Quran...
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

#589
Generic George

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Why is the Middle East Problem so intractable? Dennis Prager, nationally syndicated talk show host and best-selling author, answers that question in this thought-provoking video course.
Watch this and maybe you will learn something...


So why exactly do you think a right wing nut job who threw a hissy fit because a muslim member of congress was sworn in using a Koran instead of a Bible, has something useful to say about this issue?

<Edit>
Actually to amplify just how nutty this guy is, it was basically a publicity foto op that he got his knickers in a twist about. After all there IS NO bible used for swearing in congress people, since as numerous people have pointed out the US Constitution specifically forbids any sort of religious test for office, so there is no requirement that a bible or any other religious text be used.
<end Edit>

I mean it's not exactly a mystery why it's been an intractable problem to anyone who's been paying attention for the past 60 odd years and guys like Prager are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Perhaps you could also try telling us what is in the videos for those of us who don't care to waste a couple hours of our life on your say so.

#590
yossicl

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So why exactly do you think a right wing nut job who threw a hissy fit because a muslim member of congress was sworn in using a Koran instead of a Bible, has something useful to say about this issue?

<Edit>
Actually to amplify just how nutty this guy is, it was basically a publicity foto op that he got his knickers in a twist about. After all there IS NO bible used for swearing in congress people, since as numerous people have pointed out the US Constitution specifically forbids any sort of religious test for office, so there is no requirement that a bible or any other religious text be used.
<end Edit>

I mean it's not exactly a mystery why it's been an intractable problem to anyone who's been paying attention for the past 60 odd years and guys like Prager are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Perhaps you could also try telling us what is in the videos for those of us who don't care to waste a couple hours of our life on your say so.


I am really sorry but I do not understand your meaning...
The video will not waste a couple hours of your life it's only six minuets...

#591
Generic George

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I am really sorry but I do not understand your meaning...
The video will not waste a couple hours of your life it's only six minuets...


in this thought-provoking video course.


You said "course" in your initial post, that usually means it's something extensive and in depth. At collage the classes you take are referred to as "courses". They would typically have 2-5 hrs of class per week for several months. As a result course also tends to imply something with more than one part. So a "video course" might well consist of several half hour segments.

If it is only 6 min long you should just refer to it as a video.

You have not explained why it's worth spending even 6 minutes to watch it though. Knowing it's by Prager, makes me less inclined to watch it since he has shown himself to be a demagogue and that he deliberately tells lies.

#592
Cyrus the Great

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just for clarification :
1-iranian is muslim country not arab nation .we are persian (arab is Semitic persian is aryan)
1-I am iranian and can say to you that palestine and israel is not important for iranian people (we are hate both of theme jew and arab)
2-mollah in iran can not attack israel because that have trouble time in inside of iran and Sooner or later be overthrown by the people.
3-palestine and other arab country Belonging to iran Territory and we will get it back soon.so please don't fight with together for iranian territory .

#593
Generic George

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3-palestine and other arab country Belonging to iran Territory and we will get it back soon.so please don't fight with together for iranian territory .


Alexander the Great, the Parthans, Umayyad Caliphate in Damascus, Temujin (Genghis Khan) and Tamurlane (Timur) telephoned to remind you that you are STILL a part of their empires.

Every part of the world belonged to someone else, at some point in time. Iran is no exception.

Let me know when you plan on submitting to Mongolia's rule. They've got as much claim to Iran as you do to anything on the Mediterranean sea coast.

#594
Cyrus the Great

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Every part of the world belonged to someone else, at some point in time. Iran is no exception.

yes you are right.for about 1500 years the middle eastern has been a iran trittory before islam come to iran and destroy the all of thing that this nation getting for 1500 years.now islam is leaving iran and most of iranian peoples are hate from islam.this the time that iranian must leaving the islam.we have the power now .and upcoming war between iran and america in persian golf is best chance to getting our land back.so america must fight in our country and this success factor for iran
but can you say where is the mogol or greek now- where is nation of alexander the Stupid now .they dont have any power and they they are join to legends.but the Iranian are here the nation of great cyrus .We've made so many nulear bombs that can destroy all of the world.
and a question :
are you a mogols ?
that so funny.Miserable son of wild Genghis :hysterical:

#595
Generic George

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yes you are right.for about 1500 years the middle eastern has been a iran trittory before islam come to iran and destroy the all of thing that this nation getting for 1500 years.now islam is leaving iran and most of iranian peoples are hate from islam.


You are kidding yourself if you think Iran is going to completely get rid of Islam, regardless of how corrupt and ineffectual the clerics running things are. Iran may well stop being an islamic republic, but Islam isn't going anywhere.

Ironically for all of your flag waving and US bashing, if you did dump the fanatics in power, you'd actually drastically improve the relationship with the US.

this the time that iranian must leaving the islam.we have the power now .and upcoming war between iran and america in persian golf is best chance to getting our land back.so america must fight in our country and this success factor for iran


Yes, I'm sure you will crush the US forces, like you crushed Iraq's in the 80s. I mean look at how the US failed to overcome Saddam.

Oh wait, sorry I have that reversed.

You couldn't manage to beat Iraq back then, you were barely functioning at a WWI technology level and your military has only gotten weaker in the past 30 yrs. While Saddam was little more than a speed bump to US forces.

National pride is a good thing, but I really hope you are just trolling and don't seriously believe Iran has got any chance vs the US military. You are an idiot if you really believe what you said.

The US spends more on the military than most of the rest of the planet put together, we ARE the cutting edge of military technology and we've got more combat experience than anyone short of the Israelis and maybe even more than them now days.

but can you say where is the mogol or greek now- where is nation of alexander the Stupid now .they dont have any power and they they are join to legends.


That is actually a good point and you really should pay more attention to what you are saying there, because it is also very relevant to your country.

Yes, Iran WAS one of the great civilizations and military powers of the ancient world, but you've been a bad joke for the past couple of hundred years. You're only somewhat more impressive than the mongols are now. If it wasn't for oil, you'd be at about the same level as the mongols or afghans.

but the Iranian are here the nation of great cyrus .


Civilizations do decay and fall and your country has been doing that for a long time now. You might want to go and take a good hard long look in the mirror before you spend too much time patting yourself on the back for how great your country was...

We've made so many nulear bombs that can destroy all of the world.
and a question :
are you a mogols ?
that so funny.Miserable son of wild Genghis B)


Sorry, you don't have any yet, remember the Stuxnet virus. You also need to work on your delivery systems, right now you are only a real threat to your neighbors.

#596
Alessandro17

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We normally give plenty of leeway in this section of the forum,but enough is enough. Topic closed.





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