Not even screenshots - Geez!

[MrDee]

This is getting a bit out of hand in my opinion, its obvious Apple is disappointed by Leopard so much they are willing to go the extra mile to keep it from the wider public even seeing parts of the OS through user screenshots.

 

I think the pooper in Apple's tea include the following:

 

They claimed Vista was not gonna be released on time

Vista has covered the entire Mac OS X active user base in 3 months and probably doubled it since

They said it would be here early 2007, didn't happen

They said it would be here by spring, didn't happen

They recycled demos from WWDC 2006

The semi-translucent menu bar has become controversial

The new Dock is controversial

People are calling it a Vista rip-off

Its still buggy even at build 9a466, four months away from GM

 

Its obvious why Apple is so tight with this build of Leopard. If you search Flickr, you can see some glimpses of the OS. I notice the install screen has changed and looks similar to Vista's wizard based page screen.

[Neo0019]

This is getting a bit out of hand in my opinion, its obvious Apple is disappointed by Leopard so much they are willing to go the extra mile to keep it from the wider public even seeing parts of the OS through user screenshots.

 

I think the pooper in Apple's tea include the following:

 

They claimed Vista was not gonna be released on time

Vista has covered the entire Mac OS X active user base in 3 months and probably doubled it since

They said it would be here early 2007, didn't happen

They said it would be here by spring, didn't happen

They recycled demos from WWDC 2006

The semi-translucent menu bar has become controversial

The new Dock is controversial

People are calling it a Vista rip-off

Its still buggy even at build 9a466, four months away from GM

 

Its obvious why Apple is so tight with this build of Leopard. If you search Flickr, you can see some glimpses of the OS. I notice the install screen has changed and looks similar to Vista's wizard based page screen.

 

 

I don't get why this developers don't give to someone that will put it on the bay, I don't get it.

[Dantès]

...

They recycled demos from WWDC 2005 & WWDC 2006

...

 

 

Fixed it for you

 

 

 

Apple's hypocrisy grows daily. First, Intel was slow & IBM chips were faster

 

 

Now, Vista has X number of delays and it is buggy.... oh teh noes ! Apple,

look in teh mirror !

 

 

 

Next thing you know, they'll just remask BSD and sell it for 129.00... oh, wait,

that's what they're doing now.

 

 

 

Apple

[MrDee]

Fixed it for you

Apple's hypocrisy grows daily. First, Intel was slow & IBM chips were faster

Now, Vista has X number of delays and it is buggy.... oh teh noes ! Apple,

look in teh mirror !

 

 

 

Next thing you know, they'll just remask BSD and sell it for 129.00... oh, wait,

that's what they're doing now.

Apple

 

 

No demos of Leopard were shown at WWDC 2005, it was announced there. The big thing at WWDC 2005 was the Intel transition. The thing is, the reason they said they were keeping it secret was because of Vista and that RTMed November 2006. Still, I can understand that the Intel transition did take a toll on them and they shouldn't be afraid to admit that. Porting 90 million lines of code is not an easy thing. But the silence and secrecy on Leopard should stop, I want to see what "ALL" of it looks like now. I want to see the Leopard DVD contents, I want to see the install process, I want to see the Dock animations.

[Neo0019]

No demos of Leopard were shown at WWDC 2005, it was announced there. The big thing at WWDC 2005 was the Intel transition. The thing is, the reason they said they were keeping it secret was because of Vista and that RTMed November 2006. Still, I can understand that the Intel transition did take a toll on them and they shouldn't be afraid to admit that. Porting 90 million lines of code is not an easy thing. But the silence and secrecy on Leopard should stop, I want to see what "ALL" of it looks like now. I want to see the Leopard DVD contents, I want to see the install process, I want to see the Dock animations.

 

 

Dee, You are not alone on that everone is looking to see what the big deal is all about, but leppy has been pretty tough to take, no where to be found. If you see him let him know we're after him that sooner or later we'll take him down.

[apowerr]

Dee, You are not alone on that everone is looking to see what the big deal is all about, but leppy has been pretty tough to take, no where to be found. If you see him let him know we're after him that sooner or later we'll take him down.

 

Huh? Where you referring to Steve Jobs there? And Apple kind of worked themselves into this. Software companies are going experience problems, that is inevitable. But because they make fun of MS all the time, when they start showing symptoms of what ails MS, they cant blow it off as nothing. I think Leopard looks a lot more solid than say, Panther to Tiger. I mean this in the sense that, I always thought Apple was selling upgrades too fast, and that the upgrades contained to little. Leopard on the other hand is a huge upgrade.

[MrDee]

Based on the pics I saw on Flickr, its definitely buggy, one of the install pics said the installation failed:

 

Leopard Install failure:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/grahamb/542099969/

 

From Gallery:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/grahamb/tags/wwdc2007/page3/

 

Another pick, not clear, but obvious:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mathoov/54199...57600324488175/

 

A bunch off kids installing Leopard <sigh>:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1104/541885...efa8eb6ba_s.jpg

 

From Gallery:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mathoov/sets/72157600324488175/

[Neo0019]

Huh? Where you referring to Steve Jobs there? And Apple kind of worked themselves into this. Software companies are going experience problems, that is inevitable. But because they make fun of MS all the time, when they start showing symptoms of what ails MS, they cant blow it off as nothing. I think Leopard looks a lot more solid than say, Panther to Tiger. I mean this in the sense that, I always thought Apple was selling upgrades too fast, and that the upgrades contained to little. Leopard on the other hand is a huge upgrade.

 

 

I just want to let you know That i'm talking about Leopard Build 9A466, Im one of the biggest apple fans there is, but, really think about it this is what apple is all about HYPE! That is what they do best, and if this isn't hype just for a beta Software, I don't know what HYPE is we're all after Build 9a466 and that is what I was trying to said.

[Shimms]

Porting 90 million lines of code is not an easy thing.

 

Yes that keeps cracking me up.

 

In one keynote, I think WWDC 2005 when Intel was announce, Jobs made a big song and dance about how the risk is low as "every version of OS X since the first public beta has been running a secret double life" (or something to that effect). As such they KNOW it works on Intel, and has worked on Intel since day one.

 

Then the next year he makes a huge song and dance about the amazing efforts of the engineering team who have ported 90 million lines of Tiger code to work on Intel.

 

Hang on Steve, didn't you say that it was already done last year? That every release has had an Intel counterpart? What was there to port? Sure it needs tweaking, it needs bug fixing, maintaining an Intel port of 10.1 probably didn't have as higher priority a releasing PPC 10.2 but either you've had OS X running on Intel for 7 years, or you've just pulled off a massive port in 9 months - which is it?

 

Oh thats right, which ever sounds best at the time.

[Neo0019]

Yes that keeps cracking me up.

 

In one keynote, I think WWDC 2005 when Intel was announce, Jobs made a big song and dance about how the risk is low as "every version of OS X since the first public beta has been running a secret double life" (or something to that effect). As such they KNOW it works on Intel, and has worked on Intel since day one.

 

Then the next year he makes a huge song and dance about the amazing efforts of the engineering team who have ported 90 million lines of Tiger code to work on Intel.

 

Hang on Steve, didn't you say that it was already done last year? That every release has had an Intel counterpart? What was there to port? Sure it needs tweaking, it needs bug fixing, maintaining an Intel port of 10.1 probably didn't have as higher priority a releasing PPC 10.2 but either you've had OS X running on Intel for 7 years, or you've just pulled off a massive port in 9 months - which is it?

 

Oh thats right, which ever sounds best at the time.

 

 

Are you OK

[Shimms]

Are you OK

 

Yes.

 

The RDF is pissing me off a bit of late.

 

Still love Apple, and their products (just bought a new MBP), but you've got to take a lot of the keynote's content with a grain of salt.

[MrDee]

Yes that keeps cracking me up.

 

In one keynote, I think WWDC 2005 when Intel was announce, Jobs made a big song and dance about how the risk is low as "every version of OS X since the first public beta has been running a secret double life" (or something to that effect). As such they KNOW it works on Intel, and has worked on Intel since day one.

 

Then the next year he makes a huge song and dance about the amazing efforts of the engineering team who have ported 90 million lines of Tiger code to work on Intel.

 

Hang on Steve, didn't you say that it was already done last year? That every release has had an Intel counterpart? What was there to port? Sure it needs tweaking, it needs bug fixing, maintaining an Intel port of 10.1 probably didn't have as higher priority a releasing PPC 10.2 but either you've had OS X running on Intel for 7 years, or you've just pulled off a massive port in 9 months - which is it?

 

Oh thats right, which ever sounds best at the time.

 

When he said 90 million I believe he also meant other Apple software such as iLife, Final Cut Studio, Shake, Aperture, iWork including Tiger/Xcode itself. John Sircusa pointed out back in '99 that the OS X DP2 build had an option to compile software for Intel and PPC, which he suspected could mean that Apple also was doing an Intel build of OS X at the time.

 

If OS X (Tiger) itself was 90 million lines of code, then it would be larger than Vista at 50 million which critics have ridiculed as being too large and difficult to probably keep secure. Linux is said to be 5 million, with Apples Aqua UI and other proprietary technologies, I suspect OS X is about 15 to 20 million lines of code.

[t3mur]

I like to move it move it, I like to move it move it, you like to MOVE IT!

[Shimms]

When he said 90 million I believe he also meant other Apple software such as iLife, Final Cut Studio, Shake, Aperture, iWork including Tiger/Xcode itself. John Sircusa pointed out back in '99 that the OS X DP2 build had an option to compile software for Intel and PPC, which he suspected could mean that Apple also was doing an Intel build of OS X at the time.

 

If OS X (Tiger) itself was 90 million lines of code, then it would be larger than Vista at 50 million which critics have ridiculed as being too large and difficult to probably keep secure. Linux is said to be 5 million, with Apples Aqua UI and other proprietary technologies, I suspect OS X is about 15 to 20 million lines of code.

 

Well thats fair enough then, I'd not considered their other apps, which now that you mention it of course would have needed work too.

[Neo0019]

Yes.

 

The RDF is pissing me off a bit of late.

 

Still love Apple, and their products (just bought a new MBP), but you've got to take a lot of the keynote's content with a grain of salt.

 

 

I know i'm with you I don't get what, they're been so uptied with this Beta Build, I mean I would honestly understand if it was the main OS but is Beta C'mon.

[iDarbert]

No offence, but this must be one of the dumbest threads I've ever seen around.

I understand it is so cool to bash Apple and anything related but please, try to make sense.

 

This is getting a bit out of hand in my opinion, its obvious Apple is disappointed by Leopard so much they are willing to go the extra mile to keep it from the wider public even seeing parts of the OS through user screenshots.

Uh... no.

It has ALWAYS been like this, any pre-relase screenshot and leak has been chased to death - ever tried hunting for the Tiger alphas and betas? Ever noticed how many times the screenshots were taken down as requested by the Apple legal team?

 

They claimed Vista was not gonna be released on time

So it was, it was delayed two or three times I think.

 

Vista has covered the entire Mac OS X active user base in 3 months and probably doubled it since

Excuse me, but what data do you have to prove this?

 

They said it would be here early 2007, didn't happen

They did not.

 

They said it would be here by spring, didn't happen

So it was delayed, now what? Want to crucify them? Or perhaps you wanted them to release the damn thing so you could bash it because of how buggy it is?

 

They recycled demos from WWDC 2006

It must be hard for Apple to please non-developers who think new cool stuff will be demoed, buy seriously - the DC stands for Developer Conference.

Why does everybody ignore that?

 

The semi-translucent menu bar has become controversial

The new Dock is controversial

Because you don't like them?

 

People are calling it a Vista rip-off

People say Vista is the same as OSX because it has eye-candy, do you think people is right?

 

Its still buggy even at build 9a466, four months away from GM

I suppose you are already running it and are ready to say the opposite some developers already said (it is fairly fast and stable already according to a first-hand report).

 

Its obvious why Apple is so tight with this build of Leopard. If you search Flickr, you can see some glimpses of the OS. I notice the install screen has changed and looks similar to Vista's wizard based page screen.

You must be kidding, Apple's being used a simplified installation process for OSX since what? Jaguar? Even before?

They got rid of the window because it really doesn't make sense to move it around during the install, so what? Is it a crime now?

 

Seriosuly, people NEED to get over the "OSX copied Vista now" thing, it's stupid and really immature... what exactly is the new setup borrowing from Vista?

 

You may think it's the opposite instead, because the new Install process for Vista has a (fake) window (with a nice fake translucency) inside of which the install process takes place, something that OSX had (exept for the fact it's a real Apple Installer window) until Leopard.

Now they went for a window-free installer, something like XP and older systems.

 

Seriously, there's no progress bar at the bottom, there's no asking for a CD-key, what exactly is Apple borrowing from Vista's installer?

 

It's just the same installer from Tiger with no window and a couple more panels like the "backup with time machine" and a slightly redesigned "where to install".

 

Plus, if you despise Leopard some much, why are you so angry it doesn't leak to the public yet?

[Takuro]

So it was delayed, now what? Want to crucify them? Or perhaps you wanted them to release the damn thing so you could bash it because of how buggy it is?

Hey, what goes around comes around. You might be talking about having infinite patience for Leopard, but Jobs jabbed so hard at Vista's delays that I think he deserves his fair share of jabs too. The rule of thumb: "If you can't do it better than the next guy, don't point fingers."

 

It's not only OS X thats been stagnant, but their entire Mac computer line. The last significant hardware or software-related change was either the release of the Mac Mini or of Tiger. Periodic CPU upgrades to existing models can only stretch interest in these products so long.

 

I would've been happy with the way Leopard was before the WWDC. Slight GUI changes, Time Machine, Quicklook, and the few things demoed at the last WWDC are enough to constitute an upgrade. Panther to Tiger wasn't a huge jump, and Leopard doesn't have to be either. Apple's being very experimental, and I think they're risking a large part of their pickier users. I think we'd all like to see a few darn screenshots, even if they're removed later.

 

Oh, the bitter, ironic truth. (J/k) (Or am I?)

[hecker]

Oh my god the sun is so hot and water is so wet. I think the sun sucks and should have been release on a later date. Water in my opinion, is totally overrated and should be replaced by something that doesn't get you so wet.

 

hecker

[Xenctuary]

Such as a leopard.

[Neo0019]

Now this thread got a bit pointless.

[iDarbert]

Hey, what goes around comes around. You might be talking about having infinite patience for Leopard, but Jobs jabbed so hard at Vista's delays that I think he deserves his fair share of jabs too. The rule of thumb: "If you can't do it better than the next guy, don't point fingers."

 

It's not only OS X thats been stagnant, but their entire Mac computer line. The last significant hardware or software-related change was either the release of the Mac Mini or of Tiger. Periodic CPU upgrades to existing models can only stretch interest in these products so long.

 

I would've been happy with the way Leopard was before the WWDC. Slight GUI changes, Time Machine, Quicklook, and the few things demoed at the last WWDC are enough to constitute an upgrade. Panther to Tiger wasn't a huge jump, and Leopard doesn't have to be either. Apple's being very experimental, and I think they're risking a large part of their pickier users. I think we'd all like to see a few darn screenshots, even if they're removed later.

 

Oh, the bitter, ironic truth. (J/k) (Or am I?)

Wow, you have a great point there, aside from the fact that I never said Apple shouldn't be critisized for mocking Vista for the delay when Leopard is late too.

[apowerr]

I would've been happy with the way Leopard was before the WWDC. Slight GUI changes, Time Machine, Quicklook, and the few things demoed at the last WWDC are enough to constitute an upgrade. Panther to Tiger wasn't a huge jump, and Leopard doesn't have to be either. Apple's being very experimental, and I think they're risking a large part of their pickier users. I think we'd all like to see a few darn screenshots, even if they're removed later.

 

Oh, the bitter, ironic truth. (J/k) (Or am I?)

Takuro, I agreed with pretty much everything you said in your post except for the bold part. One thing I always despised about Apple was how often they came out with 125$ upgrades that didnt add that much. Im glad Steve seems to be really pushing this 300+ feature Leopard. The delays dont bother me that much either, Id rather 5 years for a terrific OS that meets all my needs than get new upgrades every year and a half that dont do that much. I dont think Mac OS X 10.5 is copying Vista, I just think they have encountered some of the same problems Microsoft did and since they made fun of MS its ironic.

It's not only OS X thats been stagnant, but their entire Mac computer line. The last significant hardware or software-related change was either the release of the Mac Mini or of Tiger. Periodic CPU upgrades to existing models can only stretch interest in these products so long.

I disagree here too. The only issues I have with the Macintosh line are: A) Video Cards- come on 8 series on evert mac! iMac- has always sucked, always will suck (oh and 512 MB RAM on the 17 inch is too low) C) Mac Mini- Really needs a processor update and RAM update (512 for minimum is to low). I think the Macintosh desktops need a lot of work, but the laptops are perfect! If I was going to buy a laptop in the $1000-$3000 range I would only buy a MB or MBP.

[Colonel]

Wow, you have a great point there, aside from the fact that I never said Apple shouldn't be critisized for mocking Vista for the delay when Leopard is late too.

They're not laughing AT Vista, they're laughing WITH Vista!

[iDarbert]

They're not laughing AT Vista, they're laughing WITH Vista!

Yes but the others wouldn't agree if I were to say to Apple's jokes are not supposed to be serious, everything coming out from Steve's mouth is to be taken as what Apple truly thinks.

 

Everyone thinking Apple sees Microsoft as the enemy should watch Jobs and Gates talking side to side at All Things Digital (it's on iTunes too), but well... that would be too much of an argument for a single post.

[MrDee]

'iDarbert' date='Jun 19 2007, 07:25 AM' post='389129'

No offence, but this must be one of the dumbest threads I've ever seen around.

I understand it is so cool to bash Apple and anything related but please, try to make sense.

Uh... no.

 

Thanks for replying to the "dumbest thread"

 

It has ALWAYS been like this, any pre-relase screenshot and leak has been chased to death - ever tried hunting for the Tiger alphas and betas? Ever noticed how many times the screenshots were taken down as requested by the Apple legal team?

 

You do an amazing job at contradicting yourself, so why didn't they pursue a lock down as aggressively as they are now with 9A466 on previous builds of Leopard: 9A241, 9A241e 9A383, 9A303, 9A321, 9A343, 9A377a, 9A410 all which have leaked successfully with screenshots all over this forum and the web, check Flickr a ton of Leopard screenshots, especially 9A410.

 

So it was, it was delayed two or three times I think.

 

Yes, it was delayed, and they bragged and swayed the audience at two WWDC ('05 and '06) it would be here way before Vista even RTMed. I understand they are human, but they should be able to admit that and stop bashing the competition when they themselves can't meat their own dead lines. Also, the iPhone had a role to play in Leopards delay because they had to assign QA resources to that project, but did bashing Vista's development work out in the end? I am just saying, what goes around comes around, basically Karma bit them in the you know where.

 

Excuse me, but what data do you have to prove this?

 

Neowin.net - Vista Sales Near 40 Million, Gates Says at WinHEC - yeah, eat it up.

 

They did not.

 

Oh yeah? Well check this picture out on iLounge from WWDC '05:

http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/gallery/image_med/6902/

 

It clearly says "Late '06" early '07, early '07 could be assumed as January or Spring, but most folks even assumed they were going to beat Vista with a release by Fall '06. Vista ended up beating Apple instead, but I don't want to get into the semantics of this. But I'm just proving my points and proving you clearly wrong.

 

So it was delayed, now what? Want to crucify them? Or perhaps you wanted them to release the damn thing so you could bash it because of how buggy it is?

 

Did I ask for code??? I said I wanted to see user "screenshots", S.C.R.E.E.N.S.H.O.T.S. Have you read any previous complaints from me about previous builds of Leopard being buggy??? I just assumed the reason they are locking down so much on build 9A466 is because its more buggy than even 9A410. At this stage of development, 4 months from RTM, Vista was reaching preliminary RC1. I thought Apple said they were more efficient than Vista's development and more agile. They even showed off how quick they did the Intel transition without any hiccups.

 

It must be hard for Apple to please non-developers who think new cool stuff will be demoed, buy seriously - the DC stands for Developer Conference. Why does everybody ignore that?

 

Again, did I ask for code??? I said I wanted to see user "screenshots", S.C.R.E.E.N.S.H.O.T.S. BTW, the consumers are the ones who will make this thing a success, third party developers are in a corner just as much as Apple right now.

 

Because you don't like them?

 

I didn't say I don't like them, I said they have become controversial, the majority of comments on most blogs, websites and forums are iffy. There is even an article on http://tuaw.com about a "Developer" who has written code to turn off the menu bar semi-translucency when Leopard is released. Another "Developer" has argued that the new 3D dock use more screen real estate than the older Dock and the graphical animations might be too much for older G4 systems.

 

People say Vista is the same as OSX because it has eye-candy, do you think people is right?

 

Hey, Apple started the rip off controversy, not me, talk to Bertrand Serlet about his WWDC '06 comparison of Vista to Tiger. Again, Karma, Karma.

 

I suppose you are already running it and are ready to say the opposite some developers already said (it is fairly fast and stable already according to a first-hand report).

 

Right now, thats iffy, I have even provided proof its still not stable, the installation failed even on Apple certified hardware, check my previous post with the picture from Flickr. So once again, I have proved your assurance on Leopard being the best at this stage right now, WRONG.

 

You must be kidding, Apple's being used a simplified installation process for OSX since what? Jaguar? Even before?

They got rid of the window because it really doesn't make sense to move it around during the install, so what? Is it a crime now?

 

I didn't say that, read my response about Apple and Copy Cat plus Bertrand Serlets comparison between Vista and OS X. Apple is the one that started this, not me.

 

Seriosuly, people NEED to get over the "OSX copied Vista now" thing, it's stupid and really immature... what exactly is the new setup borrowing from Vista?

 

You may think it's the opposite instead, because the new Install process for Vista has a (fake) window (with a nice fake translucency) inside of which the install process takes place, something that OSX had (exept for the fact it's a real Apple Installer window) until Leopard.

Now they went for a window-free installer, something like XP and older systems.

 

Seriously, there's no progress bar at the bottom, there's no asking for a CD-key, what exactly is Apple borrowing from Vista's installer?

 

Actually, there is a progress bar in Leopard (at the bottom) - see screenshot in previous post from Flickr, even in previous versions of OS X there is a progress bar. - Do you even use OS X? There is no CD-Key yes, for the client but for the Server Not much, but there are similarities that Apple has borrowed from Windows, but there is no crime or penalty in it. Its just a cross pollination based upon where the industry is heading, taking advantage of powerful GPUs and user needs. I will give credit 100% for seeing this first with technologies like Quartz Extreme.

 

It's just the same installer from Tiger with no window and a couple more panels like the "backup with time machine" and a slightly redesigned "where to install".

 

Like I said, its not the same, SEE THE Flickr picture from my previous post.

 

Plus, if you despise Leopard some much, why are you so angry it doesn't leak to the public yet?

 

I think you have a hard time reading and understanding, I said I want to see user screenshots, I don't want code, I don't have a problem with them protecting their intellectual property, there might be stuff in the code that needs to be trade marked. I want to see user screenshots, this could mean developer's screenshots.

 

Well iDart, I hope that answers your questions.