OryHara Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Are you a real Christian, or a false one? Do you believe in torture, death, war, murder, theft of oil, all to serve a man, and his agenda, that "says" god put him there? If you believe in that, then you should re evaluate yourself, and start asking yourself what would JESUS do if he were president? Would he do those things? I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabr Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Are you a real or "false" Christian? (or just not a Christian at all) :mellow: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erbic Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Proud atheist here. One of the reasons I hate that man you referred to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OryHara Posted April 9, 2007 Author Share Posted April 9, 2007 Proud atheist here. One of the reasons I hate that man you referred to. I hate fat green glass men, Indian men that roll on the ground, gene pools, and people that can't speak mother {censored} ing English. Your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erbic Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 all to serve a man, and his agenda, that "says" god put him there? Specific enough? LOL. Considering the number of topics you've made tonight, I guess I should have specified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabr Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Proud atheist here. One of the reasons I hate that man you referred to. Do you have a reason to hate him? I take it we're talking about Jesus Christ, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embio Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 I'm a reformed Christian. In the same way someone could be a reformed alchoholic. OryHara - what the {censored} are you on man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostgame Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Proud atheist here. One of the reasons I hate that man you referred to. "I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and find out that there isn't, then live life as if there is no God, and find out there is." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwprod12 Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 So, what you're saying is that you believe in God because you fear being sent to hell? Great motive =] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollcage Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Do you have a reason to hate him? I take it we're talking about Jesus Christ, right? Actually, I believe the man he is referring to would be Bush. Or it could be the dude that can't speak english (wait, that's still Bush...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabr Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Actually, I believe the man he is referring to would be Bush. Or it could be the dude that can't speak english (wait, that's still Bush...) Ahh yeah, I understand now. Didn't read the first post properly. In that case, i retract my 2nd post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbmkgd Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 what would JESUS do if he were president?Hmmm... let me see... according to christian mythology, he's god already.Do you mean that being president of the USA he could do more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwprod12 Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Uh. That wasnt the question. Not what COULD Jesus do if he were president. But what WOULD Jesus do if he were president. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbmkgd Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Ok then: what WOULD the j-guy do more as the prez, if he's already a god (!) according to christians' beliefs? Isn't being a god a bit above that position? Would he do more than he is already allegedly doing, as "god of all" rather than "president of few"? Would he have to accept there being the two other branches as (supposedly) equals? Sheesh... so many questions could underline the pointlessness of that hypothetical situation... There's so much things that omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience give you that a mere presidency from a democratic vote just wouldn't cut it. This somewhat reminds me of a Gary Larson Far Side cartoon were there's a guy on a tv game show, with 0 points, playing against "God", who has something like 10 000 000 points... Anyway, if the question makes sense to some or many, well, good for them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwprod12 Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 oh wow... i thought the question was simple. But it's clearly not being understood. Let me draw a diagram. If Jesus had been elected president, what would his policies be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbmkgd Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Heh... The question was understood, it's the senselessness of the premise that's mind boggling. Only on South Park would it make any sense (and I hope to see such an episode one day!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwprod12 Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 How is it senseless? That makes no sense. If Jesus were president, what would he do? There are a thousand books and schools of thought about "What would Jesus do?", why are his possible policies as a leader so rediculous? Would he make war? Would he privatize social security? Stuff like that. If you dont know what Jesus would do (based apon his sermons), then admit it. Or, if you cant wrap your head around that, take a person who behaves exactly as Jesus supposedly did, make him president, then answer the question. I think what OryHara is getting at is if someone cant comprehend how Jesus would behave if he was the leader, then they arent much of a Christian, no matter what they believe in. An example might be... 9/11. If Jesus were president, what would his response have been? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbmkgd Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 I do understand what those "what would jesus do" questions try to do; they've already become so cliché. "What would Jesus use: Windows, a Linux distro or OSX, or a hackintosh?" When the question asked is: "What a real christian would do?", this makes sense, as a limited human (as we all are) having certain beliefs. But what would jesus do? Being a god, according to christians, and thus omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, the question about what j would do loses what it intends to be: he's supposed to already knows what really happened, what will happen, what everyone thinks, what everyone will do, so he is not limited by the uncertainties humans face. In fact (so to speak), whatever is done, is done with him knowing that it would happen, including the consequences for all eternity. Being supposedly the ruler of the universe, the king of kings, etc, he has already done and continue doing whatever is to be done. And whatever the president does, for good or ill, was already known to j, if what christians believe of him is true. So, what would jesus do? Well, if he's the all-powerful god that christians think he is, he's already doing it, whatever it is. So why would he act differently as president, general, tyrant, mulla, etc ? Whenever the question "What would jesus do?" arises, no matter the circumstances and subject, the answer can only be: he already does it. Whatever is done, it is because he permits it. An easy non-answer for a senseless question, pseudo-zen for the non-zen. It is left to the believers to try to understand why some of these things are permitted by their deity. Omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience impose limitations on what we can say about a character we give these attributes to. Unless of course one doesn't believe that character has one or more or all of these attributes. But that is another question (which has produced its share of torture and murder in the past...). Of course, if one believes jesus to be only a man, a prophet or philosopher with great teachings, THEN the question would make sense. But not if he's a limitless all-knowing all-powerful deity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwprod12 Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 God's omnipotence and omniscience do not extend to humans, because if they did, free-will would be false. And sinners and believers alike would be that way as the choice of God, not as their own choice. This negates all of JudeoChristian rationality. That being said, it does not matter if Jesus knows everything, including the future, because Jesus isnt in the traditional leadership position. If Jesus WAS in the leadership position, how Jesus would lead has nothing to do with how all-powerful or transcendental Jesus is. By your logic, there is no reason for Jesus to have been the teacher, because everything that happened was a function of Jesus, and those who Jesus wanted to know would have known already. It's inexplicable reason. I make the distinction between being a Christian and being Jesusy. OryHara makes the distinction between a Christian and a False Christian. So, what would a true Christian, who understands Jesus' teachings to the fullest extent do if it were his part to lead? Would a true Christian, who behaves as Jesus supposedly did, condone war? Give tax-breaks to large, inhuman corporations to finance their rape of the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbmkgd Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Again, I have no problems with questions such as "what would a true Christian, who understands Jesus' teachings to the fullest extent do if it were his part to lead?", or "Would a true Christian, who behaves according to Jesus' ethics, condone this or that?". Or if you took the jesus character, stripped him of all his alleged divine attributes, leaving only the man and his teachings, then again the question would make sense: if you make (temporary) abstraction of what doesn't makes him a mere human, I don't have a problem with that. But I still say asking "What would jesus do as the us president?", which is nothing less then "What would god do as the us president?", is nonsense as is. It's not fair to poor mortals who don't have omniscience, etc; and it's not up to scale to what deities are. Right now, I'm going to sleep. I think that's what Jesus would do. G'night. [P.S.: If our actions and decisions are already determined in the mind of an omniscient deity, it matters not whether we humans have this omniscience or not: the question of free-will under these premises has been debated for centuries before us, and will continue for centuries on. P.P.S.: btw, what's "being jesusy"?] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro17 Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 But I still say asking "What would jesus do as the us president?", which is nothing less then "What would god do as the us president?", is nonsense as is. One might wonder why the Christians pray "Thy kingdom come" Some creeds (among them the Jehovah witnesses) believe that it will literally happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwprod12 Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Who's the new Satan. Pope Benedict? (looks like) The ability to choose between right and wrong (free will) is fundamentally contradicted by a deterministic universe or divine interference. It just is. Apologists can claim that Joe has free will to decide to be good, even though God has decided Joe wont be good. But that's just intellectual dishonesty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro17 Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Who's the new Satan. Pope Benedict? (looks like) Indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OryHara Posted April 11, 2007 Author Share Posted April 11, 2007 Indeed Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro17 Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Agreed. We seem to share the same ideas about the really evil people on this planet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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