gwprod12 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 No one is claiming that Jesus didnt exist. Someone else claimed that there are thousands and thousands of historical references to Jesus as living. Unless you count every copy of the bible in existence as more than one source (which I dont), you have 4 sources, only one of them written contemporaneously by someone both alive at the time and interested in the situation. Josephus and his Antiquities. There is also no "proof" that Jesus existed at all. There is "evidence" and somewhat weak evidence. Josephus would have had no reason to lie, but Antiquities is thought to have been altered to support the Christian view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biped Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 you mean tiberius pantera doesn't have a son, maybe someone should tell him. ?! oh dear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinosx Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 gwprod12: my intent isn't to manufacture anything out of whole cloth, I went and googled and gave you the links, to help answer your questions. Ok, I guess it would be easier for us to agree and say that there is plenty of proof (by the manuscripts) that these writtings in the new testiment are from the authors they say (which the authors where desciples, all but two). The manuscripts have been dated to come about 32+ years after Jesus. You are trying to prove (or disprove) Jesus basically by trying to measure Him through the method of science, "gathering observable, empirical, measurable evidence, subject to the principles of reasoning" But the only way to prove his existance is by faith, faith requires belief outside of known fact. "Faith is a belief, trust, or confidence, not based merely on logic, reason, or empirical data, but based fundamentally on volition often associated with a transpersonal relationship with God, a higher power, a person, elements of nature, and/or a perception of the human race as a whole. Faith can be placed in a person, inanimate object, state of affairs, proposition or body of propositions such as a religious creed." So what we are doing is endless and pointless, there is no way to prove or disprove God/Jesus' existance! It's the age old dispute and will continue on forever (or as we believe, until He returns). What I know: I believe 100% in Jesus as my savior, why? I chose to have faith in Him by recognizing my weakness and sinfulness, and turning my life over to Him. and therefore has proved Himself 100% personally true to me. (keyword personally to me) It's a personal relationship with God Himself where He will prove his existance to you. I also believe that through 100's of stories spread out through 1000's of years of people all experiencing God's grace and love indicates something, I also know that everytime I look into the sky, see the intense detail in creation, see the beauty in this world that there must have been a designer and the bible points that designer to be God. If we were able to "prove" God existed then we would have no free will. and we would basically be robots. But God loved us enough to let us choose to believe in Him or not to. So good luck on trying to Disprove or Prove Jesus' existance, it's not possible by science. Science will just give you more evidence for what you believe once you believe. you mean tiberius pantera doesn't have a son, maybe someone should tell him. ?! oh dear And while you're at it let him know that there are secret codes in davinci's paintings!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biped Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 And while you're at it let him know that there are secret codes in davinci's paintings!! you can't really say, jesus' existance is a question of faith, and try introduce some empirical evidence to substantiate, via literary, archaelogical, or otherwise. Either it passes 100% the scrutiny of science, or it doesn't. Selective evidence ( and even selective 'style' of evidence ) is just not kosher scientifically. You can't use any empirical evidence whatsoever in support... unless you are willing to subject the question to 100% scientific determination. so back to faith. it seems like the concept of jesus having a human father vs jesus being divine are one and the same, a faith based belief, just they sorta oppose each other. so which you chose to believe is a matter of preference. yet you want me to accept your ( right to a ) faith based belief ( regarding creation, jesus, etc ), and you take the moment to ridicule mine ( jesus could have had a human papa ). quite ironic don't you think ? i rather enjoyed the davinci code as a work of fiction.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killbot1000 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 gwprod12: my intent isn't to manufacture anything out of whole cloth, I went and googled and gave you the links, to help answer your questions. Ok, I guess it would be easier for us to agree and say that there is plenty of proof (by the manuscripts) that these writtings in the new testiment are from the authors they say (which the authors where desciples, all but two). The manuscripts have been dated to come about 32+ years after Jesus. You are trying to prove (or disprove) Jesus basically by trying to measure Him through the method of science, "gathering observable, empirical, measurable evidence, subject to the principles of reasoning" But the only way to prove his existance is by faith, faith requires belief outside of known fact. "Faith is a belief, trust, or confidence, not based merely on logic, reason, or empirical data, but based fundamentally on volition often associated with a transpersonal relationship with God, a higher power, a person, elements of nature, and/or a perception of the human race as a whole. Faith can be placed in a person, inanimate object, state of affairs, proposition or body of propositions such as a religious creed." So what we are doing is endless and pointless, there is no way to prove or disprove God/Jesus' existance! It's the age old dispute and will continue on forever (or as we believe, until He returns). What I know: I believe 100% in Jesus as my savior, why? I chose to have faith in Him by recognizing my weakness and sinfulness, and turning my life over to Him. and therefore has proved Himself 100% personally true to me. (keyword personally to me) It's a personal relationship with God Himself where He will prove his existance to you. I also believe that through 100's of stories spread out through 1000's of years of people all experiencing God's grace and love indicates something, I also know that everytime I look into the sky, see the intense detail in creation, see the beauty in this world that there must have been a designer and the bible points that designer to be God. If we were able to "prove" God existed then we would have no free will. and we would basically be robots. But God loved us enough to let us choose to believe in Him or not to. So good luck on trying to Disprove or Prove Jesus' existance, it's not possible by science. Science will just give you more evidence for what you believe once you believe. And while you're at it let him know that there are secret codes in davinci's paintings!! I'm sorry...but I just cannot become somebody's {censored} (---from the above speaker---I chose to have faith in Him by recognizing my weakness and sinfulness, and turning my life over to Him---- "I mean this sounds like crazy cult language here"), not matter how great they are, I am my own person, and I am not willing to GIVE MYSELF OVER to anybody, that doesn't make me bad, it just makes me independent, and able to stand on my own, anybody with me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwprod12 Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 As far as I know, there is no evidence whatsoever that any manuscripts of the new testament exist and were written in the year 60. http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/papyrus/te...anuscripts.html Also, there is no physical evidence to indicate the authors. In fact, many critical readers of the books of the new testament disagree that any of the books were written by a desciple. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_ntb1.htm Anyone can believe that Jesus existed or didnt, and if he did, he was the son of god or wasnt. I think he probably existed, but I reject that he was divine. My problem is that people have this strange notion that there's significant evidence for his existence. Aside from the fact that there are stories concerning him, none were known to have been written by an observer, no Imperial records of the events in Judea exist, there are no known letters describing the scenario, and the known facts, supported by significant evidence, to a reasonable extent call the many aspects of the accounts of the new testament into question. One example might be that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great. But Herod the Great died in 4 BC, so Jesus could not have been born 2007 years ago. Or he wasnt born during the reign of herod the great, which would call the entire birth account into question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killbot1000 Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 All I'm saying is that it isn't fair to believe writing is false just because it is religious. Plenty of documentation is put into history books just because it was written down. But because the Bible is religious, it is left out. Other writings have been assumed to be fact even with no hard evidence, but just because there isn't a library of evidence for the bible doesn't mean its stories never happened. And about the "only 3" references to Jesus. They have to be reliable enough to make most scientists believe that he existed. Every single person I know does not doubt his existence, but some doubt his holiness. It is fair to believe a writing is false just because its religious because religion has a motive, it tries to tell us that Jesus WAS the son of god and that we SHOULD all follow what he says, you cant trust something like that to be objective when it comes to his existence, you must in turn throw it out, unless it can be corroborated by other NON religious sources. You can know something about history from religious sources, but it will NEVER be the whole truth, you must take it with a grain of salt. you can get the general events, but don't look too much into the details because they are almost always fabricated Lets take a nonreligious example: You are caesar's scribe during Roman times. He wins a battle, but only slightly, but you write down that he had a GLORIOUS VICTORY and the enemy fell very quickly, this is obviously false, it is obvious this is a tactic used to make Romans feel better, and will therefore have more morale in battle. The battle therefore DID happen, and caesar DID win, but the details are sorely misrecorded, religious texts are exactly the same, there WAS a guy named jesus, he DID die on the cross, but since its religious in nature, and since it has its own agenda, one can most likely conclude that the part about the resurrection from the dead, and dying for our sins is false, simply from understanding what real life is like compared to what was written down. So yes, I can believe its false and be perfectly justified, the details are most likely, ALL OUT OF WHACK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petie74 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Because some people don't believe in Jesus or that there's a Heaven and Hell does not mean that it does not exist! But we will all now at the day of JUDGEMENT! Have you accepted Jesus ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwprod12 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Or we we all know when the day of judgement doesnt come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dice7 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Or we we all know when the day of judgement doesnt come. With all of the post that I have seen, you sound like a person that likes to put peoples beliefs down, and then make jokes about it. Sounds like a person that is not happy with his own life. But i dont know your situation, hope everything is well for you. Dice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwprod12 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 I think that's funny. So, when someone says God definitely exists, is that not putting every atheists beliefs down? I would not make the assertion that God doesnt exist. I can never under any circumstances know that fact. I do not assert that those who believe in God are wrong. I do assert that those who believe in God do so for irrational reasons. There is no valid logical method that would "prove" the existance of God, therefore the belief in him is not rational. I concede that disbelieving in God is irrational as well. Obviously from the arrogant perspective of the slave to religion, those who are not slaves must hate themselves, so I understand why you say what you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinosx Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 I think an atheist believes that he is God, the one and only higherpower. gwprod12: Would you consider yourself to be a good person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rez. Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 I think that's funny. So, when someone says God definitely exists, is that not putting every atheists beliefs down? I think it's funny that the words Atheist and Belief got used in conjunction to one another in the same sentence. Isn't that a big no no ? Woopsie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conroe Mac Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 I believe in Jesus. Just not that he's God's son, or God, or whatever the weird idea is. I don't understand why people worship Jesus when he's God's son. Isn't God more important than Jesus? Secondly, isn't God kind of a player since he knocked up some guy's wife? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killbot1000 Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 I believe in Jesus. Just not that he's God's son, or God, or whatever the weird idea is. I don't understand why people worship Jesus when he's God's son. Isn't God more important than Jesus? Secondly, isn't God kind of a player since he knocked up some guy's wife? Actually, this was argued in christianity, there were two thoughts on the subject, one was from a guy named Arius, who thought that jesus was inferior to god (the reasoning: there was a god before jesus, therefore, jesus is subbordinate to god). There was another guy, Athenausis (I know I misspelled that). He believed that jesus and god were one in the same, that they were different representations of the same "essence" (holy trinity). Arius's view was seen as heresy, athenausus's view remains to this day, very simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ramm Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 (edited) Me = Yes Reason is, chances are the guy existed. This about him existing right? I don't believe all of the stuff that he could walk on water. If people could do it back then, why can't they do it now? OMG! Criss Angel! THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS OMG! And isn't atheism a belief? I mean I believe there is no god---which is atheism Edited February 17, 2007 by Ramm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killbot1000 Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 And isn't atheism a belief? I mean I believe there is no god---which is atheism NO! This is not right, everybody tries to say this, but all atheism means is a lack of belief, meaning that they just don't believe, not that they believe in nothing, there is a subtle difference. It is literally the lack of belief in any kind of god. The problem with society is that it is so set up for ASSUMING the existence of god, so when one says they don't believe, theists try to put that in terms of faith, but really faith doesn't even enter into the equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ramm Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Well it is and it isn't - to atheists it is and to religious folk it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthoughts Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 A lot of people I've known say worshipping Jesus makes them feel closer to him. To me, seeing Jesus as a human being who ate and slept like you and me helps me feel closer to him. He was a good guy who had some good things to say, and got screwed over pretty bad for it. Not a very uncommon scenario, even in today's age. Seeing Jesus as a human, not supernatural, me makes me want to go out and just be good to people like he was. Then again this is totally subjective, so I see no right or wrong. Just take some good from the things he had to say, however way you want to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killbot1000 Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 But aren't we kind of putting Jesus on a pedestal here? Even people who don't believe he's the son of god will say "listen to what he has to say" as if it has any more special meaning than plenty of other equally good people who have walked the earth. Just my take on it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthoughts Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 Plenty of other people have done plenty of good things. I try to see the good in all kinds of people, whether they're associated with religion or not. I just solely mention Jesus because he seems to the topic in here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted brain Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 *zips mouth* *just intends to read posts that's all* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retroz Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 *zips mouth* *just intends to read posts that's all* Hee, hee, I know huh, and most of the apostles where Jews so when you get the anti semites who are Christian, it makes no sense. Anyway, I look at it like this. 1) When they killed him, like us probably, they all (apostles) took off and hid. 2) When they saw him again, after being killed they where shouting from the rooftops regardless of the consequences. They did not care. Then, and I didn't learn this till much older, all the books where written years apart by people who never met or knew each other (the Bible) and then there was SAUL who became PAUL who was a CHRISTIAN killer, who God knocked off his horse, he became blind, then turned/converted to a Christian, so there is my few pennys and thoughts. Also, once last thing, I'm a science type of guy and heard this science guy who said that Jesus fullfilled all the prophecies and to get just one fullfilled (due to it being said years ago) the odds where very high, for Jesus to get them all is like 1 in 10 billion, or something crazy. Plus of course there is no link between neanderthal and present day man. The link (missing) is really missing on the evolution scale. Weird. Peace out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwprod12 Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 Neanderthals arent the ancestors of modern humans. That's why there's no "link". They were a collateral line of human-like creatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killbot1000 Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Also, once last thing, I'm a science type of guy and heard this science guy who said that Jesus fullfilled all the prophecies and to get just one fullfilled (due to it being said years ago) the odds where very high, for Jesus to get them all is like 1 in 10 billion, or something crazy. The fact that you heard this from another guy who says "Jesus DID fulfill all the prophecies" makes me laugh. There is no way to tell whether or not he DID fulfill all the prophecies, so maybe the chances were really 1 in 4 or something since he was able to fulfill one or two of the prophecies, just my take on it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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