killbot1000 Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 I thought this would be an interesting topic. Many nations throughout history have had to battle it out between saftey of their citizens and freedom of their citizens, I just thought it would be an interesting question to ask, would you rather have security or freedom? Personally, id take a dangerous free life, over a safe contolled life any day, just my thoughts on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superhai Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 I want to be able to drive my car. Driving cars are the human activity that costs more lifes per year than anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
u1m2 Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 I chose security if it comes to choosing one over the other. I believe it is possible to achieve reasonable security without violation of people's rights though, including their freedom. Security is a must however, unsecure people are not 'free from fear and terror' therefore it's also a matter of freedom imho. Maybe this is me speaking as such because I have witnessed terror first hand when I was a kid and believe me you would rather give up some freedom not to face such a scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killbot1000 Posted August 11, 2006 Author Share Posted August 11, 2006 I chose security if it comes to choosing one over the other. I believe it is possible to achieve reasonable security without violation of people's rights though, including their freedom. Security is a must however, unsecure people are not 'free from fear and terror' therefore it's also a matter of freedom imho. Maybe this is me speaking as such because I have witnessed terror first hand when I was a kid and believe me you would rather give up some freedom not to face such a scene. understandable, but from what I understand, much of the time, the "threat" is kind of made up, and used as an excuse to take freedoms away, just the way I see it anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altaskier11 Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 You wouldn't have to make this distinction if all countries were concerned only about freedom, because then no country would have arms, and thus no country could arm/{censored} off certain terrorists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
u1m2 Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 understandable, but from what I understand, much of the time, the "threat" is kind of made up, and used as an excuse to take freedoms away, just the way I see it anyway Sure, terror doesn't only come from the actions of the terrorist groups but also from the governments in the form of hyped up fear through propaganda and so called counter-terror measures that hurt civilians more than it does terrorists. I'm sure nowadays many americans are avoiding getting a tan and growing a beard together... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user2 Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 "People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both" Benjamin Franklin (also cited to Thomas Jefferson) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killbot1000 Posted August 11, 2006 Author Share Posted August 11, 2006 "People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both" Benjamin Franklin (also cited to Thomas Jefferson) I couldnt agree more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcat69410 Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 Freedom without Security is Ludicrous. Just how free would we be if there was nothing to protect us, if anyone could stop and kill us, and there was nothing we could do about it. At the same time, one could say how free would we be if the Government could stop us and kill us and there was nothing we could do about it. The key is a balance of the two. Benjamin Franklin's famous words sound like truth, but his theory works on paper and no further. In times of war and military threats, certain measures must be taken to ensure security. If our government was destroyed because of a lack of security how free would we be? And if we died because of a lack of security, how much would we care about our freedom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killbot1000 Posted August 12, 2006 Author Share Posted August 12, 2006 Freedom without Security is Ludicrous. Just how free would we be if there was nothing to protect us, if anyone could stop and kill us, and there was nothing we could do about it. At the same time, one could say how free would we be if the Government could stop us and kill us and there was nothing we could do about it. The key is a balance of the two. Benjamin Franklin's famous words sound like truth, but his theory works on paper and no further. In times of war and military threats, certain measures must be taken to ensure security. If our government was destroyed because of a lack of security how free would we be? And if we died because of a lack of security, how much would we care about our freedom? I think the answer to your question is...too much freedom heheh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mebster Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 I'm sure nowadays many americans are avoiding getting a tan and growing a beard together... I'm sure a lot of people are. A: "Let's call the FBI." B: "Why?" A: "That guy looks dodgy." B: "What do you mean?" A: "Think he's a terrorist trying to plot something." B: "What? What gives you that idea?" A: "Daaaaaaa... the long beard and then dark skin." B: "Dude. They just found him lost on an Island for 9 months. And he's American." A: "{censored}. That's what they wants us to think" B: "He's American!!!" A: "Shut up..... Ring Ring 'FBI. I got a terrorist for you...'" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantalaimon Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 should be a balance, with a little more weight in freedom than security... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcat69410 Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 should be a balance, with a little more weight in freedom than security... Agreed, but that line is going to be hard to find. What some people call too much security, some find to be not enough. Personally, I find the level of security now is okay, if not a little overbearing at times. But if that means preventing something like another 9/11, then I'm all for it. I think the recent prevention of a really close call to that should wake America up and realize that we need a lot of the security that some people are saying we need to remove. I'm against unwarranted wiretapping, but if its warranted and there's an actual reasonable thought that this person could truly be a terrorist, then by all means wire tap the hell out of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killbot1000 Posted August 12, 2006 Author Share Posted August 12, 2006 Agreed, but that line is going to be hard to find. What some people call too much security, some find to be not enough. Personally, I find the level of security now is okay, if not a little overbearing at times. But if that means preventing something like another 9/11, then I'm all for it. I think the recent prevention of a really close call to that should wake America up and realize that we need a lot of the security that some people are saying we need to remove. I'm against unwarranted wiretapping, but if its warranted and there's an actual reasonable thought that this person could truly be a terrorist, then by all means wire tap the hell out of him. despite what people may think...9/11 wasnt very significant, it didnt change the world, if anything, it showed us how much the world hasnt changed...(the aftermath I mean) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcat69410 Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 9/11 wasnt very significant Try telling that to the people who lost their husbands, children, wives, etc... it didnt change the world The world already knew terrorists didn't like us yeah, but it changed our perception of safety and what we needed to be safe. Up to that point America had avoided a serious security problem. We felt pretty safe, but 9/11 taught us that we weren't, and that more often than not, higher security measures were necessary to prevent any further attacks. it showed us how much the world hasnt changed...(the aftermath I mean) Very true, I found it disconcerting in the least that so few Nations actually wanted to do something about 9/11. At first I tried to understand their point of view, but when some of the Nations started blaming the attacks on America, and stuff we did, I just got pissed off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killbot1000 Posted August 12, 2006 Author Share Posted August 12, 2006 Try telling that to the people who lost their husbands, children, wives, etc...The world already knew terrorists didn't like us yeah, but it changed our perception of safety and what we needed to be safe. Up to that point America had avoided a serious security problem. We felt pretty safe, but 9/11 taught us that we weren't, and that more often than not, higher security measures were necessary to prevent any further attacks. Very true, I found it disconcerting in the least that so few Nations actually wanted to do something about 9/11. At first I tried to understand their point of view, but when some of the Nations started blaming the attacks on America, and stuff we did, I just got pissed off. Well, what i meant was that nothing changed after 9/11. Not that I really care, I guess its easy for me not to care though, I live in seattle, I know nobody east of the missisippi, it really is like a different country to me, so I dont mean to sound coarse, but it just didnt really affect me, it didnt feel like I was being hurt on 9/11, it felt like "oh that really sucks for those new yorkers". For some reason I see myself as more of a washingtonian than an american, I know thats a little strange, but thats how I honestly feel about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwprod12 Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 I feel exactly the same way Killbot. I was over it after about a week. It drives me crazy how people harp on it constantly. I like living in a place where for the most part, no one wants to blow up. (Seattle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swad Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 I love how the Ben Franklin quotation is brought up in EVERY discussion on this topic. It cracks me up. Frankly, I think he was totally wrong when he said that - it sounds nice and makes for good rhetoric, but in practical application it has to occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killbot1000 Posted August 12, 2006 Author Share Posted August 12, 2006 I feel exactly the same way Killbot. I was over it after about a week. It drives me crazy how people harp on it constantly. I like living in a place where for the most part, no one wants to blow up. (Seattle) Its a good city to live in (well I live in bellingham now, but used to live in seattle) Yeah, same as you, after about a week, it wasnt really on my mind anymore, I think us fixating on it is what the terrorists want, I just dont give them the satisfaction of changing my life, freedom over security in its most effective form! I disagree with people who say that security should be chosen over freedom, because if you think about it, freedom will lead to security, think about it, terrorists...if they attack us and we arent really phased by it, if we dont really react, if we kind of put on the face of "we dont really care" even if we do, there will be no point in attacking us, because "we wont care". atleast thats the way I see it, I mean, I do care, to an extent, but its not like I can change anything, so I live my life as I always have, and I dont see a problem with that at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwprod12 Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 I love how the Ben Franklin quotation is brought up in EVERY discussion on this topic. It cracks me up. Frankly, I think he was totally wrong when he said that - it sounds nice and makes for good rhetoric, but in practical application it has to occur. Mash. Please indicate how you think he's wrong. I think the historical evidence of peoples who are cajoled into giving up their freedom in order to create greater harmony have come to regret that decision. Nazism and Italian Fascism are two good examples of how giving up individuality and freedom to gain a common purpose has led to the downfall of those social orders, with much tearing of hair in both. (working on other examples) One of the things about freedom is that it's hard to recognize what it is until it's gone. Then it's too late to get it back. http://www.cato.org/current/terrorism/pubs/pena-010917.html Good Article from a decidedly "neo-conservative" bent, so no "Liberal Bias" nonsense ;-p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killbot1000 Posted August 12, 2006 Author Share Posted August 12, 2006 ben franklin was a really cool guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcat69410 Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 I disagree with people who say that security should be chosen over freedom, because if you think about it, freedom will lead to security, think about it, terrorists...if they attack us and we arent really phased by it, if we dont really react, if we kind of put on the face of "we dont really care" even if we do, there will be no point in attacking us, because "we wont care". atleast thats the way I see it, I mean, I do care, to an extent, but its not like I can change anything, so I live my life as I always have, and I dont see a problem with that at all. Not reacting to it won't stop them. Their goal isn't to change the way we live, their goal is to destroy America and the ideals it is founded upon. Ignoring them will just make their job a hell of a lot easier. Terrorists aren't the kind of people who'll stop just because it has no immediate effect. Mash. Please indicate how you think he's wrong. I think the historical evidence of peoples who are cajoled into giving up their freedom in order to create greater harmony have come to regret that decision. I'm no Mash, but I'll do what I can. Obviously people giving up all of their freedoms for security never works, but how many times has having no security worked? Benjamin Franklin's quote may sound nice, but it will only lead to more problems. The examples you mentioned were 100% tradeoff's, lose virtually all freedoms for virtually infallible security. Obviously that would never work, there is a balance that we need to achieve. In another time, in another place, I believe freedom without security could work. But in today's world with today's ideals, security is an absolute necessity if we are to keep the freedom that we so fought for over two centuries ago. And yes, Ben Franklin is a really cool guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwprod12 Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 Terrorists do have the goal of changing the way we live... and they're doing exactly that. Everyone living in fear, giving up their freedom, being suspicious of everyone else, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcat69410 Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 Terrorists do have the goal of changing the way we live... and they're doing exactly that. Everyone living in fear, giving up their freedom, being suspicious of everyone else, etc. Terrorists in general do have a goal of changing the way we live. But if you look at Bin Laden tapes, and if you look at the terrorists who are trying to attack America, they have a different goal entirely. They want to destroy America. Whether or not we change the way we live, the Terrorists will continue to attack, not because of our reaction to their attack, but because they hate us. Nothing we do will be able to change that, short of subduing to their will. In my opinion, we should be prepared for their attack, not pretending it never happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Nonny Moose Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 "People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both" Benjamin Franklin (also cited to Thomas Jefferson) So Franklin was an anarchist? I mean security comes in many forms. I mean, if we go with Franklin here, we'd be legally committing mass murder and there isn't a thing we can do about it (I mean, it's pure freedom, man!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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