Plans for a (possible) new OSx86 utility

[00diabolic]

Holly &%$#!!!!!!!!!!! That was mean.. I have found Pcwiz apps to be helpful. Yes some needed to be done outside the app but some of the items covered in OSX86tools at first I DID NOT KNOW COULD BE DONE.

 

THAT IS THE POINT YOU JERKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Some people dont find every freaking fix available to make there hack run smoother. So an app that points to a lot of common fixes is really helpful.

 

Anyway PCWIZ please ignore the above posters PLEASE.....

 

I have an idea for the DSDT part. I know this is a hella big request but I really would like to see this done. In your DSDT patching part of the app include a option to not only pull your current DSDT but also a DSDT from

 

1. Either the closest matching real mac DSDT to your system. I have mine a macbook 4,1 and if you follow the king he has listed a lot (so a pop up box asking you to point to the mac DSDT of your choice)

 

2. From another users DSDT with similar machines to yours.

 

Then... offer a comparison to what your DSDT looks like and the way Apple has that section laid out in the matching mac model or how the similar machine has it laid out. There would have to be some smarts in the app to understand that the apple DSDT might be laid out differently.

 

From that offer suggestions for fixes. This could be part of a forum and the app would point to the differences so people could get the hang of deciphering there DSDT and known how to better ask questions that relate to patching.

 

We all know that DSDTs are different and thats because every pc bios is different & hardware on each is to but lets face facts here. There are only a few people that write bios code and it follows a pattern so all the app has to do is point out the pattern and compare and contrast that to the way apple writes that same code.

[Mushishi]

diabolic but you are also not the one that was present at irc helping all the people that we was flooded with that had borked there install....

 

So on the 3 biggest help channels osx86tools is just as much a ban reson as tonymac {censored} and distros are... because we know they are bad there is no point in supporting them (in the tonymac case it is more stealing from other osx86 devs and not give any credits back but posting as his own)

 

i am also guessing that you are one of the persons that think that QuatzGL is the sizzel because else it would not be there to enable...

[nawcom]

Thanks for 'tarding up the osx86 community pcwiz. We really love it.

[Mushishi]

Ohhh had to add this one from his own site about ipc...

 

 

Q: Why is this no longer posted on InsanelyMac?

 

A: I have stopped posting completely at InsanelyMac. There are a select few people there that ruined the sense of community for everyone through their discouraging comments and consistent trolling. Any attempt to post anything about this distro will probably be removed. And some claim that this distro causes more trouble than help. The reason for this? iPC is one of the (if not THE) most popular Leopard OSx86 distro to date. That means more users. That means more newbies. And that means more problems. The fact that people want to use the distro is not something I can control.

 

As i did say in the first post here... He blame his userbase and is calling them newbies... how lovely... i did always thing the tools and distros the experinced users did't want to use for a reson was build for the newbies...

 

And from that Q/A let me ask this...

 

~pcwiz why are you back after you did say it was ruined...

[PolishOX]

@pcwiz

 

Hi, bud. Remember me?

 

Everyday, I volunteer to help people with their hacks...my contribution to the scene.

Everyday, they ruin their installations and/or cost themselves endless #of hours fixing something your apps broke.

 

So today, I'm here to thank you. Instead of criticize you.

 

If you want to create more gui wrapped software for hackintosh users, feel free. But is the fame necessary?

Why would you actually require an audience or a debate to do such work?

Why do you NOT address the concerns and criticisms from other scene gurus?

 

Why do you feel you cannot gel with a scene full of dedicated people? What makes you so special?

What prevents you from citing sources of material properly and/or even asking permission prior to using their work?

 

Today, I want to thank you for attempting innovative strategies towards making osx86 dreams come true.

The biggest contribution you offer to our scene is you unify the people who don't support you.

You indirectly fuel the truly talented people to create and innovate on their own work and share it freely.

 

Keep up the good work -- I guess software wasn't your thing as you've moved on to music production?

And you've only recently gotten back into osx86 related stuff?

 

We didn't miss you, but we are glad you're back...at least I am. B/c I owe you 1 million thanks.

 

Since you've graduated -- have you become a man? B/c for once in your life I'd like to see you stand up for yourself and voice your opinion and your version of the story...would you do that just for me?

 

I'm looking forward to your acceptance speech. You win the Thank You Award of 2010 from the OSx86 Scene!

[FKA]

Holly &%$#!!!!!!!!!!! That was mean.. I have found Pcwiz apps to be helpful. Yes some needed to be done outside the app but some of the items covered in OSX86tools at first I DID NOT KNOW COULD BE DONE.

 

I'm sure the politics here are going righ over my head - However

 

I used OSX86tools when I first started out here, not so long ago - and as a newb I found it very useful, not only to get me up and running but also to understand a little more.

 

For that I owe thanks to pcwiz

 

That means more users. That means more newbies. And that means more problems. The fact that people want to use the distro is not something I can control.

 

It's a fair point - there are a lot of people out there that expect a simple method to install OSX and don't expect to have to think for themselves. As far as I can see such a simple, universal install method still does not exist!

 

We see it every day - users not searching, not reading, not trying - expecting everything on a plate!

 

D

[PolishOX]

Says the guy who conveniently asks pcwiz for 2 new features to be added to a software gui...

[FKA]

Says the guy who conveniently asks pcwiz for 2 new features to be added to a software gui...

 

What ?

 

"Asks" ... you surely mean "sugests" !

 

EDIT - and I bet you've used OSX86tools at some point in your hackintosh life time?

 

Come on be honest!

[nawcom]

What ?

 

"Asks" ... you surely mean "sugests" !

 

EDIT - and I bet you've used OSX86tools at some point in your hackintosh life time?

 

Come on be honest!

 

Using it is equivalent to huffing propane; all it does is kill brain cells.

 

There's nothing in there that was needed, other than clicking buttons, and in return, killing any chance of understanding anything.

 

Now you can go ahead and say that that's what you want. That's not what I, and many other people want. We want people to gain knowledge, not cluelessly freeride their way into hacking with OS X. And this doesn't mean anti-GUI at all, so don't take it that way. The main reason is when the freerider runs into issues, he or she doesn't know jack from {censored}.

 

That's where osx86tools and other similar apps come into play. In my opinion when a GUI promotes the idea that a person doesn't need to know what a kernel extension is, where it goes, what it's for, and how it applies to their hardware, and how to manage it, then the GUI is bad. Same goes for GUIs covering EFI strings, bootloaders, etc. A situation where a GUI comes into play for something that a user understands is completely different.

[FKA]

Using it is equivalent to huffing propane; all it does is kill brain cells.

 

There's nothing in there that was needed, other than clicking buttons, and in return, killing any chance of understanding anything.

 

Now you can go ahead and say that that's what you want. That's not what I, and many other people want. We want people to gain knowledge, not cluelessly freeride their way into hacking with OS X. And this doesn't mean anti-GUI at all, so don't take it that way. The main reason is when the freerider runs into issues, he or she doesn't know jack from {censored}.

 

That's where osx86tools and other similar apps come into play. In my opinion when a GUI promotes the idea that a person doesn't need to know what a kernel extension is, where it goes, what it's for, and how it applies to their hardware, and how to manage it, then the GUI is bad. Same goes for GUIs covering EFI strings, bootloaders, etc. A situation where a GUI comes into play for something that a user understands is completely different.

 

It's funny because it was OSX86tools that helped me move into DSDT editing (at which I am now very proficient - IMHO) by looking at EFI strings and how that reads as a plist then translating that to ACPI code!

 

You are also forgetting there are many sound engineers and video editors etc .. out there that don't give two hoots about the ins and outs of hacking code and want an easy method of install.

 

Dont get me wrong I'm as guilty as the next at flaming people who don't try to help themselves. But the plain fact is some people either don't have the time or the skills but know they would benefit from having a hack.

 

So are hacks to be the preserve of the IT elite? ~ so to speak! or is the aim to make the hack more main stream?!

 

I've not said OSX86tools was perfect in any way but I did use it and it did help me.

Something similar/ better/ more up-to-date would help people.

 

Now if you want to discourage somebody from trying to further the scene by offering help for FREE, however (delete as appropriate) rude/arrogant/self serving/limelight grabbing/useless - you may think they are - then in my opinion you are a complete fool.

 

This scene runs on peoples good will and their free time. And regardless of any politcs that have obviously passed me by, it frankly upsets me to see somebody who has obviously put in a lot of effort be attacked like this.

 

Peace out

D

[PolishOX]

When FormerlyKnownAs can tie the help laden boot strings of a guy like me or nawcom, his opinion will matter...

 

Until that time, defend this guy as he is your champion -- but he speaks not for he knows his place.

[FKA]

When FormerlyKnownAs can tie the help laden boot strings of a guy like me or nawcom, his opinion will matter...

 

Until that time, defend this guy as he is your champion -- but he speaks not for he knows his place.

 

I didnt post here to fight with you - however I took some time to read through some of your posts earlier and fail to see what support and help you offer! Maybe you can show me some examples?

 

or are you too BS ladened to do anything but {censored} and squeal?

[Hagar]

Well, I've been meaning to say a piece on the state of things in the community for some time now, and this appears the perfect opportunity.

 

First off, Pcwiz, we've talked at length in the past, and I'll limit my response to your proposal to 2 words: Please Don't.

 

As for the rest of this thread, it warrants a warning about flaming, so please consider it given.

 

Most of all however, this illustrates the vast schism that has occurred in the osx86 world in the last year or so. The gap between the developers and those who understand the inner workings of os x on the one hand, and those who don't on the other.

 

Currently we're seeing a degeneration back to the bad old ways of people posting "will my hardware work" and "what method for me" and information being increasingly inaccurate and harder to find, as "helpful" people respond with wrong advice to those with no clue, and no-one reacts by moderating them. This makes it very difficult for the beginner to progress, and the temptation to plump for the easiest-looking solution with the most popularity is great. These solutions are often distros which attempt to install 10.6 with techniques more suited to 10.4, or slightly better, retail methods appropriate to 10.5 with join-the-dots guides. Both of these techniques attempt to separate the user from the underlying knowledge which they will in any case need to keep their hack happy & healthy.

 

In the meantime, there is an ever-smaller group of dedicated people working with ever more advanced techniques far removed from the stuff the "masses" are using, but due to their technical nature, these techniques don't get the huge boost that comes from large numbers of knowledgeable eyes.

 

The missing link IS NOT more gui tools & wrappers around 2008 techniques (which essentially just make it look easier, but doesn't make it any easier in reality) The missing link is teaching.

 

Yes, teaching. Look at the guides posted, all aimed at "easiest possible" installation step-by step, don't look down. Hardly any attempt to instill any kind of learning in the newcomer.

 

The easiest installation method is knowing your stuff. It makes installing, maintaining, tweaking and using os x on unsupported hardware fun & rewarding. The real problem is that those doing the developing don't have the time & inclination to write manuals for the average computer geek to get up to speed with what goes on under the hood with os x. The classic example is DSDT patching, where most requests for explanation are answered by a link to the ACPI specs. This is fine for the dedicated enthusiast, but very dry & tough going for the novice.

 

So to everyone out there who wants to make a difference, and has enough knowledge to understand what the devs are doing, and enough literacy to make it understandable to the average *computer enthusiast*:

 

WRITE A GUIDE.

 

NOT a hardware specific installation guide, & NOT another useless utility, but a readable piece on your favourite bit of internals and post it somewhere it won't drown in noob posts.

To reply to some of the opinions voiced in this thread: 00diabolic, the suggestion you have for DSDT is the exact opposite of what needs doing when a machine is patched, namely custom tailoring to the machine in question, not trying to get a "template" table to fit.

 

FormerlyKnownAs brings up the spectre of elitism. As the state of the art stands today, an install needs properly tailoring & tweaking to the individual machine to work properly. This can only be done by hand with proper skills and knowledge. This is not matter of opinion or policy, but a matter of fact. Those who do not have the time or inclination to do this suffer the consequences with setups that run poorly or not at all. The perceived "Elitism" is just a tough truth, and the only solution is in bold above. It's not rocket science, it's just poorly documented.

 

As for those who "put in a lot of effort", this is worthless to downright harmful on its own, it is most often these people who spread incorrect information and give poor advice. Those who have both knowledge and enthusiasm are extremely rare and precious, and usually burn out quite fast.

 

Another fact is that os x on pc will never be understandable to other than the enthusiast, hence those wishing to get a "cheap mac" for purposes other than the machine itself, in particular those looking for a cheap way into iphone dev, or a means to run their pirated apple pro apps really should steer clear, both for their own good and for the sanity of the community as a whole. "Popularising" osx86 might have been a laudable goal back in the days of tiger, but today it is just impractical & misguided. So yes: hacks are to be "the preserve of the IT elite", but lets make that an elite that is easy to join: Better to make it easy for people to learn and become enthusiasts than to try to eliminate the need for skills. When all is said and done, for all the fine work of the devs, this is still a hacked OS on unsupported hardware and as such, not suitable for mainstream users.

[booger_sniffer5000]

I complete agree with Hagar.

[Krishna21]

Bold:

 

I would DEFINITELY help make it, I really even love the Central Theme Repo idea!

[PolishOX]

@FormerlyKnownAs

 

If you think IM is the only place to get help with your hackintosh...you're the prime example of what hagar speaks about above.

 

You won't find me in these forums writing page upon page of supportive and helpful guides.

 

I do most of my helping live and in person on irc. So please don't try to challenge me, you'll lose.

 

Additionally, part of what I do for this community is behind the scenes -- uniting the talent that makes all this possible.

 

@hagar

 

I understand you want to keep order here @ IM but pcwiz did leave an open ended question in his original post.

Perhaps it's time after so long to hear it directly from his peers that his contributions are his.

But open ended questions lend themselves to the opinions of others and maybe that's what he's after...

[Atomic999]

Reading to some of this threads messages bottom line seems to be:

 

- As a newbie, never ask anything in this forum. Stay away until you're a specialist.

- Search through ~100000 posts to find your answers yourself.

- Never build anything which potentially eases OSX86 installation.

 

Folks, thats not helpful. The forum is great, but it is not the proper way to find fixes for specific HW in an easy way. And there are tons of suggestions and wrong infos. Sticky posts are starting points, not more. For this, there exist Wikis like osx86project.org and install guides to bring people to osx (and thats the main point - In my opinion, every new osx86 user is a potential new Apple customer, but thats another story.)

 

 

BTW: Just saying "{censored} off" to one who wants to contribute is more than rude and very nosy.

[FKA]

@ PolishOX - I've never needed help on irc so our paths have never crossed.

I've always found my solutions here by reading existing posts and educating myself! And if you'd read even a few of my post you will have seen I say over and over to people asking basic questions, to search and read.

 

Also I'd not enter into a flaming game with anybody about who's done more for the community. I find that kind of attitude very crass, immature and a bit needy

 

As you say Hagar the people writing accurate, comprehensive, followable (is that a even a word?) guides are few and far between. And I think half the problem with the scene moving so fast is that guides become out of date very quickly and need continual updates - not everyone has the time for this.

 

Saying that I think it is also quite possible to glean good information from the "none-guide" threads. The ATI 5770 thread is a good current example. The problem is these threads a.) become quickly bloated with useless information b.) become fragmented with users starting irrelevant side threads that just make it harder for people to search and find the thread with the answers.

 

Edumacation is the key but I do still think a good GUI has a place, even in the learning process. As I've said, I've obviously missed some deeper issue with OSX86tools and pcwiz but I stand by the fact that at the time of making my first Leopard retail install, it did play a part in helping me and helping me learn.

 

Especially for more complicated techniques, like DSDT patching - Koalala's ACPI patcher (allbeit windows based.) was at the time a very good tool (for some BIOS). But as soon as Koalala ran out of free time to keep offering support and keep the development up, it becomes less and less useful - as any unsupported guide would become.

But again as an introduction to a subject it served as a good tool for many users.

 

anywhos ...

 

D

[Hagar]

Oh lordy..

 

ok.. problems with osx86tools: it probably destroyed more installs than it fixed because the big, shiny buttons appeared to promise automated heaven to the uninitiated, and a few clicks was all it took to royally hose your setup. It brought about the myth that qe/ci could be enabled on unsupported hardware because people couldn't tell that "quartzGL" wasn't the same as "quartz extreme" but the most crucial issue was this: those who knew what to do had no use for such a tool (osx86 tools did nothing that couldn't easily be achieved in terminal), and those who didn't shouldn't be messing with such settings. There is a reason such things are kept out of harms way in os x. Add to that the fact that it was a crude gui written in applescript and heavily overpromoted by pcwiz and it certainly did far more harm than good. I certainly became sick to death of people saying "I used osx86 tools and now I can't boot" because you could be damn sure that they didn't know what they'd done wrong, which makes it very hard to suggest a way to put it right, and even if you did have a procedure, they wouldn't understand, because, once again, the only reason to use osx86 tools is if you don't know how to do the same things by hand.

 

The real problem here is that an awful lot of you clearly believe that the "no-brainer" approach to hackintoshing is acceptable and even useful, whilst not seeing the bigger picture that it is at best holding back progress and at worst destroying the very foundations of the community that makes that which allows it to be installed in the first place. There is a reason the bleeding edge (which isn't represented on this forum because no-one wants 4000 posts of noobs going "will this maek my dell run MAC?" in their topic) is years ahead of the mainstream, and unless we address this, the whole project will die.

 

the 2 posts above this clearly show the paradox:

 

Reading to some of this threads messages bottom line seems to be:

 

- As a newbie, never ask anything in this forum. Stay away until you're a specialist.

- Search through ~100000 posts to find your answers yourself.

- Never build anything which potentially eases OSX86 installation.

 

The alternative to not asking is to post a question before you've fully researched your problem, which merely means that instead of searching through "~100000 posts" the next guy has "~100001 posts" to search through.. The ideal would be if each topic and subject had exactly one thread and for all extraneous posts to be removed, so that there would be no need to search through those posts and no need to ask questions as the answers would be easy to find. Every single person posting "will osx work on my hardware" makes it worse for the next one to come along. This ideal is impossible due to the volume of posts, but even attempting it is futile because this site now follows a policy of doing what is popular, not what is best for the users, and no-one likes having their posts removed.

As for building stuff that eases osx86 installation: what do you think all the kexts & bootloaders are? it is abundantly easy, but for some people easy is never enough, they want it to be a 1-click deal with a shiny interface that plays sweet music for them whilst it works, and god forbid that they should ever have to understand what is going on in the OS.

 

FormerlyKnownAs claims the scene is moving too fast to write proper documentation, If so, it is moving too fast to build pointless ego-boosting tools as well, yet somehow people find time for that, because it's shiny and has their name all over it. As an aside, nothing has been suggested that is even remotely up-to date; build a bootable uefi tool that autodetects hardware, dynamically patches DSDT, kernel and kexts and you *might* be onto something, but this is way beyond the skills of such as pcwiz, who is more into making simple guis and userland apps.

 

I disagree with the idea that the scene is moving too fast: IMO the mainstream has hardly moved since 2008, but the cutting edge has, and unless something is done to try to close this gap, by making the advanced stuff understandable on the one hand and by stopping the "dumbing down" and attempted commodification of this community project on the other, it's all over.

[FKA]

The method hasn't changed much but the hardware does - so don't lose the method.

Fair point.

[Alessandro17]

Reading to some of this threads messages bottom line seems to be:

 

1) As a newbie, never ask anything in this forum. Stay away until you're a specialist.

2) Search through ~100000 posts to find your answers yourself.

3) Never build anything which potentially eases OSX86 installation.

 

1) I wonder if you regularly read what newbies ask: question which have already been asked one million times and, worse, question which show a total lack of basic knowledge (not about OS X, but about PCs in general).

2)That is why search engines were invented a long time ago. The help many of us give is to show newbies how to search.

3)As Hagar said, a lot has been built to ease OS X installation, else it wouldn't be possible for 99% of users (only devs and gurus could do it).

 

In my opinion, every new osx86 user is a potential new Apple customer, but that's another story.

 

I strongly doubt it, and I have many reasons to believe that.

Do you know how many users write more than 10 posts? around 3%

And I don't know how many, but certainly an awful lot, ask between 1 (most of them) and 3 questions and then disappear:

the toy wasn't as funny as they expected.

 

 

Another fact is that os x on pc will never be understandable to other than the enthusiast, hence those wishing to get a "cheap mac" for purposes other than the machine itself, in particular those looking for a cheap way into iphone dev, or a means to run their pirated apple pro apps really should steer clear, both for their own good and for the sanity of the community as a whole. "Popularising" osx86 might have been a laudable goal back in the days of tiger, but today it is just impractical & misguided. So yes: hacks are to be "the preserve of the IT elite", but lets make that an elite that is easy to join: Better to make it easy for people to learn and become enthusiasts than to try to eliminate the need for skills. When all is said and done, for all the fine work of the devs, this is still a hacked OS on unsupported hardware and as such, not suitable for mainstream users.

 

These are some of the wisest words I have ever read about OSx86.

Most people come here because one of the following reasons:

1)Installing OS X on a PC is so fashionable and geeky and (they believe) it must be fun.

What do they do, normally? In the best case, they search for 5 minutes. But because they don't even know what to look for, next they ask one of the questions we have already seen one zillion times.

Sometimes they get an answer, sometime not, but as I already said, most disappear very quickly: it wasn't so funny after all.

2)As Hagar said, many want a cheap Mac. These might last longer, but the starting point is wrong: even if I have hardly ever had problems with my hackintoshes, if I needed a Mac professionally, I would have bought one.

 

 

What was this project when I arrived, at least for me?

You would definitely build a hackintosh and hardly ever try OS X on your existing hardware, also because the amount of supported hardware was extremely limited.

The OSx86 project was to be taken very seriously: you would devote a lot of money and time to it. And yet it was a challenge and a hobby, an important one, which would give you plenty of fulfilment.

 

What to do for the future? I believe we must strongly reinstate what this project is: installing OS X on a PC is in no way comparable to installing Windows or Ubuntu (I won't mention Slackware or FreeBSD, because such operating systems also require dedication). Possibly discourage user who refuse to understand or are unaware of this simple fact.

We created the New User Lounge, but its sole purpose was to keep the noise all in one place.

Should we consider a test, as Hagar did for his forum? I don't find it a bad idea at all, in principle. Maybe not quite as difficult, but at least show us that you know the basics of computers and that you realize the purpose of this project.

[Hagar]

Should we consider a test, as Hagar did for his forum?

 

I assume you're referring to projectosx.com and whilst I was involved in setting that up, it is a collaboration by the core staff from this site, the staff of osx86scene.com and osx86library.com, and is by no means "my forum". In fact I have done very little of the work that has gone into it, and many of those who have done the work have chosen to be credited as "the projectosx team" rather than individually. Conversely, last I checked I had still put more hours into IM than anyone else, although this may have changed in the last 6 months or so. Just to set the record straight and make sure credit is given where it is due.

[PolishOX]

I don't blame any staff on this site for giving up as easily as the developers who were here first and were later banned.suspended. or quit.

 

However, if you still work here -- that's cool it does have something to offer -- even if it's a unique history.

 

I admire guys like hagar who try hard to help people but I wish for 1 goddamn second pcwiz would chime in...

[Alessandro17]

I assume you're referring to projectosx.com and whilst I was involved in setting that up, it is a collaboration by the core staff from this site, the staff of osx86scene.com and osx86library.com, and is by no means "my forum".

 

Thanks Hagar. I guess I translated improperly a familiar Italian expression

[Hagar]

I don't blame any staff on this site for giving up as easily as the developers who were here first and were later banned.suspended. or quit.

 

However, if you still work here -- that's cool it does have something to offer -- even if it's a unique history.

 

I admire guys like hagar who try hard to help people but I wish for 1 goddamn second pcwiz would chime in...

 

The history of this site is summed up in my sig, and is a mite more dramatic & convoluted than you make out.

 

I don't work here; this site is run for the profit of the British hosting company that owns it and takes all the ad revenue and donations, hence the only person who works here is Ed. Everyone else is a volunteer for whatever reason. My primary motivation is damage control, particularly since the staff with a clue have long since abandoned the place.

 

Thanks Hagar. I guess I translated improperly a familiar Italian expression

 

Wow.. I'm surprised, since you're the only one of the Italian staff members who actually writes legible english. Would you refer to IM as "Your forum", or is there a difference between collective efforts and private companies?