97 replies to this topic

[johan]

Well a nice try.

But educate yourself, homosexuality is common in the animal world.

But , why should your argument( lets call so) be relevant.

In the animal world their are no blond females with big tits, so you are agains females with blond hair and big tits?

Is that your logic?

The facts are, brains can be more or less female/male. The part called hypothalamus determends your sexual drive, beining hetero, gay, bi

a lot of people are bi by default, but nurture makes them behave hetero or gay.

still i thing there are also al lot people who are very straight and very gay people.. even with strong nurture influences

explaining someones sexuality is very complex

[djet]

Darn! My attempts at starting a flame war have failed.....

Anyways, my point was that I don't feel that homosexuality is natural. Not that homosexuals are the devil's personal servents and that they personally choose to ruin people's lives (not saying that they do.)

[johan]

djet, on Mar 20 2008, 08:10 AM, said:

Darn! My attempts at starting a flame war have failed.....

Anyways, my point was that I don't feel that homosexuality is natural. Not that homosexuals are the devil's personal servents and that they personally choose to ruin people's lives (not saying that they do.)

Well sure, your feelings are very important. But that aside. The facts are that homosexuality is very common in nature. Just look at apes, a species very close to us.
Even more from a Darwin point of view homosexual behavior makes a lot of sense.
The error a lot of straight people make is reflecting ones own feelings to other people.
I mean, sure. you are straight. So you like girls. But for a gay person, it feels natural  to like boys.  Don’t be so judgmental. Accept that other people have different feeling then you.

[djet]

STill not trying to start a flame war but.....

How would homosexuality make sense with evolution? It does not benefit the species in any way. Does not increase food consumption, reproduction, or anything beneficial.

[killbot1000]

djet, on Mar 20 2008, 03:27 PM, said:

STill not trying to start a flame war but.....

How would homosexuality make sense with evolution? It does not benefit the species in any way. Does not increase food consumption, reproduction, or anything beneficial.

Homosexuality has nothing to do with reproduction. One can be homosexual and still reproduce. It makes even more sense with human beings because we KNOW how to reproduce, most animals in the wild just do it with anything that emits the right pharamones.

Evolution isn't perfect, not by a long shot. But that's sort of the point.

Vast amounts of variation exist within every species, this is why some members of a species are immune to diseases while others are not.

When it comes to homosexuality, if one were gay, but the society encouraged them to still have children and to be with the opposite sex, then a child can still be produced in spite of one being gay. It's not really that surprising at all to see gay people walking around today

[Alessandro17]

djet, on Mar 20 2008, 11:27 PM, said:

How would homosexuality make sense with evolution? It does not benefit the species in any way. Does not increase food consumption, reproduction, or anything beneficial.

One should ask nature why bonobos are the way they are:

http://en.wikipedia....social_behavior

http://www.unl.edu/r...nobo/bonobo.htm

And yes, their sexual behaviour seems to be beneficial to their society.

[johan]

djet, on Mar 20 2008, 11:27 PM, said:

STill not trying to start a flame war but.....

How would homosexuality make sense with evolution? It does not benefit the species in any way. Does not increase food consumption, reproduction, or anything beneficial.

Plato, Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo, Alexander the Great, Sir Isaac Newton,
Leonard Bernstein , James Baldwin, Oscar Wilde, Jodi Foster, Freddie Mercury etc.
All famous gay’s
Don’t you think, they contributed a lot of positive things to society?

So maybe evolution, made them gay, in order to enable them to focus on science, arts, music etc
In stead of just producing children

[socal swimmer]

johan, on Mar 21 2008, 12:54 AM, said:

Plato, Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo, Alexander the Great, Sir Isaac Newton,
Leonard Bernstein , James Baldwin, Oscar Wilde, Jodi Foster, Freddie Mercury etc.
All famous gay’s
Don’t you think, they contributed a lot of positive things to society?

So maybe evolution, made them gay, in order to enable them to focus on science, arts, music etc
In stead of just producing children

no. If that were true, most succesful people would be gay. While that list is impressive, it is but a small fraction of all famous inventors/artists/contributors to society.

Though I do find that extremely interesting.

I think homosexuality is irrelevant (but it may help with art/design..).

[superstition]

socal swimmer said:

I think homosexuality is irrelevant.

This is at the heart of anti-gay prejudice.

Consider the ramifications of your statement. What you're saying is that homosexuals are irrelevant. Irrelevant things are censored, shunned, and ultimately, eliminated. Why? Because they don't matter. What's more... they are an intrusion - a problem.

The other aspects of anti-gay prejudice are:

1. I fear retaliation due to identification as homosexual, for myself or others.
2. I can profit from anti-gay prejudice.

Fear, ignorance, and greed are the cornerstones of anti-gay prejudice. Gay invisibility rhetoric is designed to force gay people to disappear. I created a topic called "Homosexuality is never relevant" to discuss this in another forum. It disappeared after some time and was deemed irrelevant before it did.

If homosexuality were truly irrelevant, this topic wouldn't exist and you wouldn't have posted in it, eh?

[sxjthefirst]

You know what is unnatural ? CELIBACY.  Monogamy too has very little support in the wild. What's the evolutionary benefit of monogamy? The male is meant to produce as many offspring as possible with as many females as possible. People make so many unnatural stuff moral but single out a few to be immoral.

The father of modern computer science Alan Turing was gay ( http://en.wikipedia....ki/Alan_Turing) so we are all working on a technology that has a gay father

BTW Squirrels don't post in forums either so should we stop posting in forums?

[killbot1000]

sxjthefirst, on Apr 7 2008, 12:12 PM, said:

You know what is unnatural ? CELIBACY.  Monogamy too has very little support in the wild. What's the evolutionary benefit of monogamy? The male is meant to produce as many offspring as possible with as many females as possible. People make so many unnatural stuff moral but single out a few to be immoral.

Good Freakin' Point

[Software Updater]

sxjthefirst, on Apr 7 2008, 03:12 PM, said:

You know what is unnatural ? CELIBACY.  Monogamy too has very little support in the wild. What's the evolutionary benefit of monogamy? The male is meant to produce as many offspring as possible with as many females as possible. People make so many unnatural stuff moral but single out a few to be immoral.

The father of modern computer science Alan Turing was gay ( http://en.wikipedia....ki/Alan_Turing) so we are all working on a technology that has a gay father

BTW Squirrels don't post in forums either so should we stop posting in forums?

You made a really good point there. One the topic of not seeing two guy squirrels doing it in your sisters tree. How do you know? Do you set there and sex every squirrel you see and watch it to see if it does another male squirrel? If so then I think homosexuality is the least of your problems.

[homer007]

i saw someone said that homosexually is there from the start, it has not been there from the start, i think first known discovery was about 3000 years ago!!, i have seen many people change there sexually from homo to straight!! so i think people who are homosexuals is all in their head!!

[^_^]

djet, on Mar 20 2008, 10:27 PM, said:

Darn! My attempts at starting a flame war have failed.....Anyways, my point was that I don't feel that homosexuality is natural. Not that homosexuals are the devil's personal servents and that they personally choose to ruin people's lives (not saying that they do.)How would homosexuality make sense with evolution? It does not benefit the species in any way. Does not increase food consumption, reproduction, or anything beneficial.

ok see if this make sense,

Again i am changing from gay to African Americans

Darn! My attempts at starting a flame war have failed.....  Anyways, my point was that I don't feel that African Americans is natural. Not that African Americans are the devil's personal servents and that they personally choose to ruin people's lives (not saying that they do.)How would African Americans make sense with evolution? It does not benefit the species in any way. Does not increase food consumption, reproduction, or anything beneficial.

homer007, on Apr 25 2008, 10:00 AM, said:

i saw someone said that homosexually is there from the start, it has not been there from the start, i think first known discovery was about 3000 years ago!!, i have seen many people change there sexually from homo to straight!! so i think people who are homosexuals is all in their head!!

Japan used to be a homosexual country, it properly still is if the western haven't came and influence us.
I wonder how long have we been on this earth.

This is for those who thinks homo is not natural:http://www.sfgate.co...MNG3N4RAV41.DTL

[Alessandro17]

homer007, on Apr 25 2008, 10:00 AM, said:

i think people who are homosexuals is all in their head!!

http://www.yawningbr...005/imp-203.htm

http://news.national...gayscent_2.html

Quote

It's hard to see how a simple choice to be gay or lesbian would influence the production of body odor, he said.

[Paranoid Marvin]

Looks closely into Shakespeare's plays - there are a lot of inferences to homosexuality.
Shakespeare wasn't an idiot either, he was a smart man

[killbot1000]

On this subject I don't know why people care so much, why don't we all just mind our own damn business and stay out of other people's personal lives. We should let homosexuals have marriage if they want it, because theres no harm in allowing it, not one bit. We should have anti-discrimination laws on Homosexuality because its who one IS, not who one CHOOSES to be, and even if they did choose to be, we have anti-discrimination laws on religion (which is something one chooses to be).

We should simply be happy living our own lives and not living other people's lives for them. Who cares whether it makes sense through evolution or not (monogamy doesn't make sense through evolution either), who cares whether it's right or wrong.

When you add up the numbers at the end of the day, being gay never hurt anybody (except the people who ARE gay who have had other people who dislike them, harming them), so don't fight it, nobody is telling you that you have to be gay or anything, and that push will never come in the public so what are you really worried about?

It's my guess that these anti-gay people are just grossed out at the thought of two people of the same sex having sex. My advice is for these people to grow up and deal with it. For as long as people have been around, there have always been an "us" and a "them". I think it would be wise for us to pick our battles, and fight only what will destroy us in the end. Homosexuality is not a battle we should fight, its meaningless.

[Ravich]

killbot1000, on Apr 28 2008, 04:30 PM, said:

On this subject I don't know why people care so much, why don't we all just mind our own damn business and stay out of other people's personal lives.

Because we are human beings. We interact with each other. As much as I'd like to applaud you for disagreeing with discrimination, this is extremely flawed thinking. It goes along with the state of mind that many people have where they claim support of equality, but their mindset is not so. The fact of the matter is that equality would bring homosexuality into same frame in which we view homosexuality. There are plenty of people out there that say there is nothing wrong with homosexuality when the idea of 2 men kissing in public is not quite right in their mind. Not saying you feel this way, but it's important to point out IMO.

But this is how we're conditioned. The media basically mind{censored}s society from age 0 until the day we die. Take a look at the stuff that's happening right now. Women are becoming more and more respected and on an equal level to men... at least from a legal standpoint. However look at image in the media. Over the past several decades, women have gotten smaller and smaller, to the point that it is considered "sexy" when a woman's ribs are showing (what the {censored}? seriously.) And then the body image of men over the past several decades: take a look at action figures from the 1970's and then today. Star Wars would be a good example, since they are the same characters. The arm and chest size proportions are absolutely absurd when you look at the difference.

Maybe it seem's irrelevant, but this is the root of the problem. Society conditions us in ways in which most people will go through their entire lives without knowing or acknowledging. It's improving, but men are hardly allowed to be real people by most standards. It's all tied into the same problems that both women and homosexual people have, because both are extremely threatening to the standard expectations of males in our society.



When you think about it, it's completely ridiculous. What on earth is it that really makes so many men SO uncomfortable about the idea of 2 men being together like that? Why is it that the thought of the possibility of being gay is terrifying to males going through their teens? What is the {censored} logic behind it? Even when men grow up in areas where it isnt acceptable to be anything but supportive of gay rights, it's still extremely common for lots of males to feel very uncomfortable about it, and only supportive on a very superficial level.

Can't really answer the question myself. Anyone want to think about it for a while and try explaining it to me? I have an idea of the main reason, but I'd like to hear someone else's opinion.

[killbot1000]

Ravich, on May 1 2008, 01:03 AM, said:

Because we are human beings. We interact with each other. As much as I'd like to applaud you for disagreeing with discrimination, this is extremely flawed thinking. It goes along with the state of mind that many people have where they claim support of equality, but their mindset is not so. The fact of the matter is that equality would bring homosexuality into same frame in which we view homosexuality. There are plenty of people out there that say there is nothing wrong with homosexuality when the idea of 2 men kissing in public is not quite right in their mind. Not saying you feel this way, but it's important to point out IMO.

But this is how we're conditioned. The media basically mind{censored}s society from age 0 until the day we die. Take a look at the stuff that's happening right now. Women are becoming more and more respected and on an equal level to men... at least from a legal standpoint. However look at image in the media. Over the past several decades, women have gotten smaller and smaller, to the point that it is considered "sexy" when a woman's ribs are showing (what the {censored}? seriously.) And then the body image of men over the past several decades: take a look at action figures from the 1970's and then today. Star Wars would be a good example, since they are the same characters. The arm and chest size proportions are absolutely absurd when you look at the difference.

Maybe it seem's irrelevant, but this is the root of the problem. Society conditions us in ways in which most people will go through their entire lives without knowing or acknowledging. It's improving, but men are hardly allowed to be real people by most standards. It's all tied into the same problems that both women and homosexual people have, because both are extremely threatening to the standard expectations of males in our society.
When you think about it, it's completely ridiculous. What on earth is it that really makes so many men SO uncomfortable about the idea of 2 men being together like that? Why is it that the thought of the possibility of being gay is terrifying to males going through their teens? What is the {censored} logic behind it? Even when men grow up in areas where it isnt acceptable to be anything but supportive of gay rights, it's still extremely common for lots of males to feel very uncomfortable about it, and only supportive on a very superficial level.

Can't really answer the question myself. Anyone want to think about it for a while and try explaining it to me? I have an idea of the main reason, but I'd like to hear someone else's opinion.

I understand your point, and there is a lot of validity to it. But not with me.

Watching two guys kiss neither excites me, or bothers me. I can say the same for heterosexual people. I was conditioned when I was younger, I would say things like "thats gay!" and crap like that.

But when Logic started to become my morality, that all...melted away slowly.

All I am saying is that other people should really learn some sociology coupled with logic, this will lead them to shrug off things that don't matter and to focus on the things that do. We will still have disagreements for sure, but nothing like we do today.

The problem is that most people aren't logical.

But...I practice what I preach, and I really do mind my own business, I have many friends who are gay, doesn't bother me one bit, in fact we still pretend to hit on each other in a joking way (like one does with their friends).

[aquanutz]

I have no problem with it. I think it all just boils down to preference rather than how a person was born. Of course, you can say your genetics play a part of what things you like, but so does your environment.

On the topic of homosexuality and evolution, it is a difficult thing to talk about because we, as humans, behave in different ways when compared to our ancestors (other species). You can not say that "Species A has had homosexual relations as part of their society for X amount of years" and make any correlation to humans because, even though we have evolved from them (key word being 'evolved'), we are able to rationalize things on a much higher level than they can. Evolution boils down to what benefits the entire species, not the individual and for humans, homosexuality does not benefit the (human) species in any form.

Just my two cents.