djet Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 Well we all know what this topic is going to be. Us flaming each other and bashing each others heads claiming that we're right and everyone else is wrong. Let's hope not. I have not seen that in other topics in this forum and don't expect to. There are a lot of differing views on evolution. My view: evolution did happen, and since I know religion is going to make its way into this topic I'll go ahead and state my view with it. I believe that God used his evolution as a tool of creation. My evidence? The odds of evolution are very slim. That our planet was at the exact location in the solar system, got the right amount of oxygen, and life got to it. Sure there are gazillions of planets out there. Still very unlikely. Also, the likelihood that life evolved to the point that it is now is very bleak. Okay now questions for answering: Where did the original life form that got to our planet come from? Did a rock suddenly shape together in a way that worked as a bacterium? Things like eyes. How did an organism suddenly evolve a functioning eye randomly? LOoking at eyes, they are pretty complex. More to come probably. Now I wait for your answers and counter response or support. Remember, I and most others are taking this as a debate. I do not intend nor should anyone else intend to attack the other person, only the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paranoid Marvin Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 Surprise surprise, you have the completely wrong idea of evolution... Evolution is not something that 'happened', it is something that is still happening, has always happened and always will do. I don't have time to explain the basics of evolution (eg, natural selection, hereditary traits, survival of the fittest, etc, etc) because I have a flight to catch, but I suggest you do some reading and come back when you understand this rather simple yet fundamental parts of nature Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djet Posted April 1, 2008 Author Share Posted April 1, 2008 I understand what you're saying. Yes, evolution is still going on. I was referring to specific parts of evolution though. Like when life first arrived on this planet. Where did it come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apowerr Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 My view: evolution did happen, and since I know religion is going to make its way into this topic I'll go ahead and state my view with it. I believe that God used his evolution as a tool of creation. My evidence? The odds of evolution are very slim. That our planet was at the exact location in the solar system, got the right amount of oxygen, and life got to it. Sure there are gazillions of planets out there. Still very unlikely. Also, the likelihood that life evolved to the point that it is now is very bleak. First, it is very wise of you to accept evolution, as it has become quite clear that it is indeed legit. I am impressed that you don't allow yourself to be blind, and have the merit to say "Maybe I misinterpreted this scripture" or "God and Evolution do not cancel each other out in any way". Things like eyes. How did an organism suddenly evolve a functioning eye randomly? LOoking at eyes, they are pretty complex. Indeed they are. Wikipedia provides an article and diagram on this very subject. The earliest predecessors of the eye were photoreceptor proteins that sense light, found even in unicellular organisms, called "eyespots". Eyespots can only sense ambient brightness: they can distinguish light from dark, sufficient for photoperiodism and daily synchronization of circadian rhythms. They are insufficient for vision, as they can not distinguish shapes or determine the direction light is coming from. Eyespots are found in nearly all major animal groups, and are common among unicellular organisms, including euglena. The euglena's eyespot, called a stigma, is located at its anterior end. It is a small splotch of red pigment which shades a collection of light sensitive crystals. Together with the leading flagellum, the eyespot acts as a sort of directional eye, allowing the organism to move in response to light, often toward the light to assist in photosynthesis,[17][18] and to predict day and night, the primary function of circadian rhythms. Where did the original life form that got to our planet come from? Did a rock suddenly shape together in a way that worked as a bacterium? This is a tough question, and I believe that one day science will give us the answer. I consider myself agnostic, but I sort of believe that there may be some supreme being or force beyond ourselves that is responsible for the ability to live in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djet Posted April 1, 2008 Author Share Posted April 1, 2008 Anyways, yes I believe in some aspects of evolution. I find it very foolish of Christians to always come out saying evolution is false. Almost saying God couldn't have done it. This is a tough question, and I believe that one day science will give us the answer. I consider myself agnostic, but I sort of believe that there may be some supreme being or force beyond ourselves that is responsible for the ability to live in general. This is sorta going along the lines of the faith in science vs. faith in religion and which one takes more faith. That's sorta a weak point in evolution. Of all the gazillions of planets out there, how come ours got the right temperature and all that and just happened to get life too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killbot1000 Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 This is sorta going along the lines of the faith in science vs. faith in religion and which one takes more faith. That's sorta a weak point in evolution. Of all the gazillions of planets out there, how come ours got the right temperature and all that and just happened to get life too. Human beings have absolutely NO concept of the universe. We have no idea how far everything is away from us, and we have no concept of how many planets there really are. There are hundreds of billions of planets within our own galaxy (HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS). We are but one card in a deck of 100-200 billion cards. When one takes this number into account, being a certain distance from the sun for temperature doesn't seem so far fetched. As for the origins of life on earth, nobody is really sure, but we find out more and more about the universe every year. Think of how much we know now VS. even the 80's or 90's. It's insane. Also, it is not certain that we "got life". The origins of life are speculative at best. But just because we don't know the answer yet, doesn't mean we wont, we just simply need to do more research. Religion definitely takes more faith. If you had an accurate understanding of science, you would know that it has nothing to do with faith. Science is about process of elimination (throw 50 things out until all you have left is the most plausible answer). Why is that argument a weak point in evolution? Evolution is a theory, and it has a vast body of scientific evidence to back it up, what kind of evidence exists for the case of god? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dermatea Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 Evolution does have plenty of evidence for it, however, I still have difficulty finding answers to several of my questions, regarding, for example, unlimited potential for change. If you were to take God out of the equation, you would be left with: life formed from non-life, by pure chance, (the probability for which is so low even in ideal circumstances that I cannot even fathom) and continued to evolve to become the life we see today, including ourselves. Through genetics, we have discovered that DNA is what determines an organisms' traits. So there lies the problem. DNA only holds a certain amount of information, so in order for organisms to have unlimited potential for change as they apparently do according to the theory of evolution, information must somehow be added to the DNA. I was always curious as to how this happened, for if it didn't, evolution would not be able to adequately explain the diversity of life on our planet. So far, I haven't found an answer to this. Some have suggested that mutations added information to DNA, but upon further examination of mutations, information is found to be discarded rather than added, so mutations cannot add more information to DNA, and tbus, are not responsible for the theory of evolutions' concept of unlimited potential for change. Does anyone else have any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danerd100 Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I don't have a chance to start reading this topic today, but tomorrow, expect a response from me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollcage Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Anyways, yes I believe in some aspects of evolution. I find it very foolish of Christians to always come out saying evolution is false. Almost saying God couldn't have done it. This is sorta going along the lines of the faith in science vs. faith in religion and which one takes more faith. That's sorta a weak point in evolution. Of all the gazillions of planets out there, how come ours got the right temperature and all that and just happened to get life too. We're not even sure how big the universe is, we might only be able to actually observe a small fraction of it. Anyway, its estimated that in what we can observe, there are 3 to 7 × 10^22 stars organized into over 80 billion galaxies. Even if a small fraction of those stars have planets, less still with planets the right size and distance from that star, and a smaller fraction with the chemistry to support life, I'd guess there would still be plenty left for the accident of life to start. Maybe not all of those accidents lasted very long, but apparently at least one did. I just love thinking about this sort of thing, the debate of life brings with it the origins of the universe. If there is a "higher being", then it's safe to say they probably created the universe (but what created this "higher being"?). If not, then how did the universe get here? I always think of the universe as infinitely small to something else, kinda like a quark to the rest of this universe. Maybe the time of existence of our universe will only be a fraction of a millisecond to this larger universe. It boggles the mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxintosh Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Maybe not all of those accidents lasted very long, but apparently at least one did. There is a very famous scientific equation that was designed to approximate how much intelligent life should be among the planets. The result was that there should be at least 10,000 planets that contain intelligent life. Next year we start looking for them with NASA’s Kepler mission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djet Posted April 3, 2008 Author Share Posted April 3, 2008 If there is a "higher being", then it's safe to say they probably created the universe (but what created this "higher being"? Search this forum for "Cosmological Argument" and it should lead you to the "God botherers...." topic. I gave an explanation for this in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puckslinger Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 On evolution, it is happening has happened and will always happen. to say GOD or evolution not both, is wrong who says GOD hasnt set up evolution. No reason why not. As far as humans and the Galaxy, we are retards when it comes to that. I know we can only figure there being life by what we know. i.e. Carbon based life. but come on , why doe sit have to be 75* for ther to be life, what about say the moon titan, we know say there is water under the ice that covers the moon, why cant there be fish under there? Higher being has forever been around, he made the dinos and the planets such and such. when he gets bored there will be a 40 day flood, ice age, alien attack, and comet that hits our planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxintosh Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 who says GOD hasnt set up evolution. Ironically, that would be the christians why doe sit have to be 75* for ther to be life, what about say the moon titan, we know say there is water under the ice that covers the moon, why cant there be fish under there? We already know that life is NOT temperature dependent. Next year we will know more about Titan. The problem is that there really is no place to land, and the ice is several miles thick. That's a lot of ice to have to drill through. The 'drill bit' also needs to be able to take samples and readings. Not an easy task, but they have prototypes now built. A testament to mans creativity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuietOC Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 In defense of Christianity, the modern opposition to certain intellectual pursuits never had a firm grounding in careful thought. It is quite obvious that "creation scientist" or "intellegent design" advocates are more products of modern western culture than anything tracing itself to historical Christianity. Next year we will know more about Titan. The problem is that there really is no place to land, and the ice is several miles thick. That's a lot of ice to have to drill through. The 'drill bit' also needs to be able to take samples and readings. Not an easy task, but they have prototypes now built. A testament to mans creativity. Are you really an Obama supporter? The joy of discovery is a natural part of our being. The exploration of space-time will continue to be the proper business of humans to enjoy, and joy and wonder the proper response. NASA is too small and limited for what we should be accomplishing. Our government is too intent on throwing money away for votes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxintosh Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 NASA is too small and limited for what we should be accomplishing. They are not doing it alone, and haven't been for some time now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killbot1000 Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Sol System = 1 Star, 8 Planets, countless PlanetoidsOur Galaxy = 400 Billion Stars, 200 billion of those have planets, even MORE countless planetoidsOur VISIBLE universe = Over 80 BILLION Galaxies, Each with Hundreds of billions of stars, and hundreds of billions of planets.Our views of the universe continue to be Earth-Centric. What are the odds that Earth is the only planet in the entire universe capable of supporting complex life? I would bet on the odds of life forming over those odds any day of the week. On evolution, it is happening has happened and will always happen. to say GOD or evolution not both, is wrong who says GOD hasnt set up evolution.If this were to be true, I have no problem with it whatsoever, its just that in Christian Scripture, it says that human being came from pillars of dust, or something like that. The problem is that many Christians REALLY REALLY REALLY want to take the bible literally, rather than taking it metaphorically, the problem with this is that in order to hold onto their belief that the bible is literal, they must utterly reject evolution, or risk picking and choosing which parts of the bible are literal and which parts are metaphorical, and if they jump to that, EVERYTHING is up for debate. They don't want that, so they hold steadfast to their "belief" which is in actuality, a delusion. (again I am not bashing Christians, only people who take all of this scripture LITERALLY) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuietOC Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 If this were to be true, I have no problem with it whatsoever, its just that in Christian Scripture, it says that human being came from pillars of dust, or something like that. Yep, Genesis 2 states that one Man (=Adam) was formed from the dust of the earth.... Hey, wait a minute! Those damn atheistic evolutionists believe human life ultimately can be traced back to non-living substances here on earth. They somehow went back in time and added this to the Bible! Damn, time travel! What an abomination! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hecker Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Yep, Genesis 2 states that one Man (=Adam) was formed from the dust of the earth.... Hey, wait a minute! Those damn atheistic evolutionists believe human life ultimately can be traced back to non-living substances here on earth. They somehow went back in time and added this to the Bible! Damn, time travel! What an abomination!I blame the terminators for that. They have traveled back and time and screwed our destinies forever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxintosh Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Genesis 2 states that one Man (=Adam) was formed from the dust of the earth.... Hey, wait a minute! Those damn atheistic evolutionists believe human life ultimately can be traced back to non-living substances here on earth. The last time I looked dust was non-living... so what's the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuietOC Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 The last time I looked dust was non-living... so what's the difference? Yep. As an aside. In Genesis 2 Man doesn't become a living being until Yahwey breathes into his nostrils "the breath of life"--nostrils that evidently are already inhaling. That inventive nameless apostle, John, has the gall to have the man Jesus actually do this at the end of his gospel --as if these disciples of his weren't already living! Anyway, to summarize, God is still creating, and it involves human evolution to a new kind of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apowerr Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Anyway, to summarize, God is still creating, and it involves human evolution to a new kind of life. A very respectable and intelligent belief Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djet Posted April 8, 2008 Author Share Posted April 8, 2008 On the subject of Bible literalism, this is from Song of SOngs, in the first section (also called Song of Solomon) "How beautiful you are, my beloved, how beautiful you are! Your eyes are like doves behind your veil. ... Your hair is like a flock of goats... Your teeth are like a flock of newly shorn ewes... Your lips are like a scarlet thread, Your temples are like a slice of pomegranate... "...Your neck is like the tower of David built with rows of stones on which are hung a thousand shields... ... Your two breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle which feed among the lilies... "... Your lips, my bride, drip honey, Honey and milk are under your tongue... And the fragrance of your garments is like the fragrance of Lebanon. Your belly is like a heap of wheat... "... Your nose is like the tower of Lebanon, which faces towards Damascus..." Here's what that would look like.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxintosh Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 Here's what that would look like.... Gee thanks djet, I'll surely have nightmares tonight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djet Posted April 10, 2008 Author Share Posted April 10, 2008 Hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killbot1000 Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 Here's what that would look like.... Wow! hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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