superstition Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 This is more than a homosexual identity issue. There are many heterosexual women who don't feel the need to paint themselves and look artificial. Women aren't born with earrings, big hair, lipstick, eyeliner, eyeshadow, stockings, and long painted nails. There was a Malcolm in the Middle episode about this, where Lois was told by her boss that she has to "look more feminine" to the point where she was assumed to be a prostitute by strangers. Comment: ENDA only protects straight-acting people5th October 2007 10:56 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/20...; After many years working as a bartender for Harrah's Casino, Darlene Jespersen was fired for failing to conform to the Casino's new 'personal best' grooming policy. As a female bartender, Jesperson was required to have her hair "teased, curled, or styled," and to wear stockings. Jesperson was also suddenly required to put on makeup everyday: lipstick and nail polish mandatory. It was a regimen she found burdensome and demeaning, and while sexual orientation was not an issue in her case, I know quite a few lesbians who might feel the same way. This kind of discrimination happens all the time. Darlene Jespersen lost her job because she did not live up to the female-specific requirements of her new dress code. And when she fought her termination in court, she lost. The US Congress is now looking at two different versions of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA). One would make this type of discrimination illegal. The other would not. Congressman Barney Frank has chosen to introduce a straight-acting-only version of ENDA which bans employment discrimination based on sexual orientation but not gender identity and expression. Make no mistake, a straight-acting-only ENDA is a hollow victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazasaurusu Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 This is more than a homosexual identity issue. There are many heterosexual women who don't feel the need to paint themselves and look artificial. Women aren't born with earrings, big hair, lipstick, eyeliner, eyeshadow, stockings, and long painted nails. There was a Malcolm in the Middle episode about this, where Lois was told by her boss that she has to "look more feminine" to the point where she was assumed to be a prostitute by strangers. Tough bloody luck, men have to wear suits n ties, just as bad, truth is, no one gives a {censored}, if you want to be an arse and protest about the clothes you have to wear at work, then get a different job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superstition Posted February 1, 2008 Author Share Posted February 1, 2008 Tough bloody luck, men have to wear suits n ties, just as bad, truth is, no one gives a {censored}, if you want to be an arse and protest about the clothes you have to wear at work, then get a different job. Clothing isn't the main issue. You're changing the subject. Painting oneself up with a plethora of stuff is a lot different than putting on a suit. Have you ever had to put on eyeliner and take it off? What about curling your eyelashes? And eyeshadow? And lipstick? And nailpolish? And earrings? And eyebrow tweezing? Etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazasaurusu Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Clothing isn't the main issue. You're changing the subject. Painting oneself up with a plethora of stuff is a lot different than putting on a suit. Have you ever had to put on eyeliner and take it off? What about curling your eyelashes? And eyeshadow? And lipstick? And nailpolish? And earrings? And eyebrow tweezing? Etc. Its no different, its wearing something you don't want to, you're a hypocrite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clutchuser Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 theres lots of jobs out there. i think she needs to start looking. That business can ask her to paint her face how ever they want and she has every right to walk right out the door....If i thought adding clowns to my painting company would make me more money and the employees said they would not paint in clown makeup then i need to start looking for people who will.....Adios mthrfkrs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superstition Posted February 2, 2008 Author Share Posted February 2, 2008 Its no different, its wearing something you don't want to, you're a hypocrite. Flaming won't help your point. Clothing is not the same thing as mascara. f i thought adding clowns to my painting company would make me more money and the employees said they would not paint in clown makeup then i need to start looking for people who will That's not a good comparison. There is no "clown" gender role. What we're actually talking about is women being told they have to look more "feminine", not people being told they have to role play as clowns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clutchuser Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 ok ill give you that one, how about the hooters (resturant handbook) says that you must have a " barbie doll like apperance". Can the management ask them to lose weight or add makeup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazasaurusu Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 (edited) Flaming won't help your point. Clothing is not the same thing as mascara.That's not a good comparison. There is no "clown" gender role. What we're actually talking about is women being told they have to look more "feminine", not people being told they have to role play as clowns. Well you couldn't be more wrong. Clothing such as a suit is decorative, its there to reinforce a preconceived role, that the wearer is supposed to adhere to, its the same, get your head out of your arse. Edited February 2, 2008 by Mebster Post has been edit to remove foul language. Watch it from now on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aduffbrew Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 Flaming won't help your point. Clothing is not the same thing as mascara.That's not a good comparison. There is no "clown" gender role. What we're actually talking about is women being told they have to look more "feminine", not people being told they have to role play as clowns. Hmmm... So because some aspect of grooming and appearance can be arbitrarily assigned to a gender role, it should be considered discriminatory if it is required or forbidden by an employer? Are you implying if it isn't assigned to a gender role, it's not discriminatory? Who makes the call on what is or isn't? Bar-tending is more than just the proficient mixing of drinks. They are also a salesperson. Salespeople need to project the required persona to elicit the maximum volume of sales from their target consumer base. Who has the right to dictate what the required persona should be? The government? The employee? How about the one with the most vested interest, the employer? I think Barney Frank has it right for not going over board on intrusive legislation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwhsh8r Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 Well you couldn't be more wrong. Clothing such as a suit is decorative, its there to reinforce a preconceived role, that the wearer is supposed to adhere to, its the same, get your head out of your arse. yep pretty much.... if you dont like make up dont wear make up, if your employer says to wear makeup and you really care that much about a little issue just for makeup or anything then quit. you have to do somethings you dont want to in the job industry. so does everyone else, male or female... put up and shut up or get a different job, unless its ridiculous.... which makeup is not by any standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mifki Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 they say i have to have a shower every day when i come into work, but i dont like having a shower and i dont want to. Should i sue them for wanting to keep their company with a positive, clean image instead of a unshaven, stoned and grubby image? They are your boss, you do what they say, or get the {censored} out of the building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macgirl Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 Flaming won't help your point. Clothing is not the same thing as mascara.That's not a good comparison. There is no "clown" gender role. What we're actually talking about is women being told they have to look more "feminine", not people being told they have to role play as clowns. I think that "makeup" is more tribal thing, look the ancient egyptians, in some cultures earings and other "jewlery" are for men, gender is a construct, in one african culture the women are who build the houses, if a man does it is "wrong". In "western" culture the believe is that those things make more femenine, but is just an "idea", there are women who are very femenine without that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mifki Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 yes but do you want a receptionist to look like a {censored}?, no thankyou, i would be scared by that. the receptionist should look good, and what looks good is what the boss thinks looks good, he isnt making her wear bikinis, just put some concealer on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macgirl Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 Yeah, it's a shame that people judge from appearance, but they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mebster Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 gazasaurusu, if you are to continue in this discussion then do so with some manners. Foul language isn't tolerated. True at times things can get heated and words can be said in anger. But in your case above it was just plain simply unnecessary. Just don't do it again. I haven't read into this topic much but Kiko it isn't about what the boss thinks looks good but what "society" thinks looks good/right. As in the case of a business if society is happy and accepting then the boss will be too. So if we all accepted that receptionist maybe should wear bikinis in the summer then bosses would be more ok with that (an extreme argument there). In Japan business cultures are different from say the US's because the culture of the countries are different. Just wanted to add that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numberzz Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 gazasaurusu, if you are to continue in this discussion then do so with some manners. Foul language isn't tolerated. True at times things can get heated and words can be said in anger. But in your case above it was just plain simply unnecessary. Just don't do it again. I haven't read into this topic much but Kiko it isn't about what the boss thinks looks good but what "society" thinks looks good/right. As in the case of a business if society is happy and accepting then the boss will be too. So if we all accepted that receptionist maybe should wear bikinis in the summer then bosses would be more ok with that (an extreme argument there). In Japan business cultures are different from say the US's because the culture of the countries are different. Just wanted to add that. Wow Mebster, what's up your butt today? But on with the conversation...why are we even discussing this. The original question was whether women should be forced to wear makeup, to which the direct answer is no. Free world....remember? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwhsh8r Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 The original question was whether women should be forced to wear makeup, to which the direct answer is no. Free world....remember? lol, in that case...... you cant be "forced" to unless the boss ties you down and puts the make up on while you resist............. otherwise you just dont like company policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mifki Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 its everything to do with the boss. He can want her to wear a dead fox around her neck cause they work in a hunting store, if he wants it, she either does it, or gets the {censored} out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazasaurusu Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 Wow Mebster, what's up your butt today? But on with the conversation...why are we even discussing this. The original question was whether women should be forced to wear makeup, to which the direct answer is no. Free world....remember? Its a free world because she's free to go get a different job, free world doesn't mean freedom to do whatever you want. The business owner is free to set the dress code he chooses, make up is covered by that dress code. The bottom line is she's not being forced to do anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiegoCJ Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 It's the same for men I guess... we don't need makeup but we do need to be shaved... If the girl looks sloppy then it really hurts the establishments image... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
U.C. Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 Men have to shave everyday, wear suits, make sure their hair is cut. Do we complain about it....No. Neither should a women about makeup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superhai Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 I would believe this is a border case. But for me I work for an airline and we have very strict "grooming"/"appearance" regulations. And they are different for males and females. But it is also a part of my contract with the company, and I would hope that other employers add these things to the contract in which their employees sign. And of course freedom is just illusionary. If you use your "freedom" to quit your job, your status will decrease when you want to get a new job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socal swimmer Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 Employers have the right to set rules so that their establishment maintains a good image. Men must shave, shower, wear suits, cut their hair, and keep themselves properly groomed. They always have, and nobody debates this. Women must do their part as well to ensure that they are presentable. This includes wearing makeup. she has the freedom to quit, as others have said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superstition Posted February 3, 2008 Author Share Posted February 3, 2008 Women must do their part as well to ensure that they are presentable. This includes wearing makeup. she has the freedom to quit, as others have said. Oh brother. Why can men work without makeup and women have to have it? It's totally arbitrary. And, having competent employees be kept out of the workforce due to arbitrary dress codes is hardly ideal. Any dress code should apply equally to both sexes, unless there is a special reason why an employer requires special things, like makeup. Men and women wear makeup in certain professions, like TV anchors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
U.C. Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 Sure so from next time you goto work, try having a short man haircut, short cut nails, Suit/Tie for men. I dare you to try this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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