Muhammad cartoons...

[bofors]

 

Support Denmark

 

"I am totally shocked and find it unacceptable that - because there have been caricatures in the West - extremists can burn flags or take fundamentalist or extremist positions which would prove the cartoonists right," Philippe Douste-Blazy, French foreign minister.

[DrJägermeister]

 

Support Denmark

My support for the Denmark: I'm just drinking a cold Carlsberg beer

[ripoflive]

Thats so messed up man......I dont understand why people have to be haters all the time.....the only explanation is ignorance....

[teeching]

LOOK THIS IS SOMETHING PROVOCATING ... THIS BOARD IS FOR OSX AND SOME REALTED STUFF AND ALSO HERE AS I AM THERE ARE MANY MUSLIMS IF YOU ARE REALLY FEELING ITCHY GO FIND A WALL OR SOME KINDA THORN ...DO NOT PLAY WITH PEOPLE'S BELIEF ...

 

IN ISLAM IT IS NOT ALLOWED TO COMMENT ON THE SIGHT OF HOLY PEOPLE .. JUST AS HZ.MOHAMMED PBUH . AS YOU ARE NON MUSLIM ..YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND THIS ...

 

SHOWING REACTION TO SOMETHING THAT YOU DO NOT BELIVE IS NOT BEING DEMOCTRATIC BUT ONLY BEING PROVOCATIVE ... IF YOU ARE NOT MUSLIMS WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO GET INVOLVED INTO SUCH STUFF ?

 

WHAT IS YOUR AIM ?

 

AM I COMMENTING EVER ON MOSES OR JESUS ?

 

WE MUSLIMS DO BELIEVE THEM AND WONT ALSO LET ANYONE TO MAKE BAD COMMENTS ON THEM ? WHO IS MORE HUMANISTICA AND EQUALISING IN THIS STATE ?

 

LOOK !!!

 

THIS IS REALLY ANNOYING FOR A MUSLIM !!! TRY TO UNDERSTAND AND MOVE THIS CARTOONS ASP !!! PLEASE ; PLEASE ; PLEASE !

[DrJägermeister]

THIS IS REALLY ANNOYING FOR A MUSLIM !!! TRY TO UNDERSTAND AND MOVE THIS CARTOONS ASP !!! PLEASE ; PLEASE ; PLEASE !

Calm down, that's just some cartoons.

I know many moslems witch are more tolerant and can smile about this. So just be more cool and smile

[teeching]

hey ..this is not something to smile...you cannot really foresee what this will cost anyhow...

 

a real muslim cannot accept this....

 

really..i swear they cannot ..even from their heart they must be feeling bad...this hurts the senses...and no one should accept such things..

 

i am not being tolerant about my thoughts..tolerance has the border till you are hurt...

[Swad]

Ok, I deleted the cartoons that bofors had posted(by the request of a Mulsim forum member), but I really like this thread because it's good for discussion! I took them down because they are highly offensive to our muslim friends on this board... and we can have a good discussion without them.

 

I think there are pictures that someone would put up that would be highly offensive to all of us, and that's not something we really want on this board.

 

Discussion without offense is the key. Thanks for starting this thread, though, bofors.

 

While I can understand how something may be offensive to someone else in another country, it's no excuse for flag burning and violence. What do the Muslims here think of all this?

[johan]

I support the Danes too.

 

 

This is about freedom of speech

 

I also find it disturbing that when some people in the name of Allah fly a plane to a building, or cut of heads of people. I see no demonstrating Muslims against it.

 

But when a Danish newspaper shows some innocent cartoons. Some Muslims go wild.

 

This is a disgrace to all humanity and Muslims.

 

So lets support freedom of speech and support the Danes.

 

And to all the Muslims demonstrating against the Danes, please show some humour and put things in perspective.

 

I also know that there are a lot of Muslims who think that this boycott agains the Danes is ridiculous. So not all Muslims are the same. There are also moderate Muslims.

 

 

Johan from the Netherlands

 

 

Ok, I deleted the cartoons, but I actually like this thread because it's a good discussion!

 

I took the cartoons down because it is highly offensive to our muslim friends on this board... and we can have a good discussion without them.

 

I think there are pictures that someone would put up that would be highly offensive to all of us, and that's not something we really want on this board.

 

Discussion without offense is the key.

 

Thanks for starting this thread, though, bofors. While I can understand how something may be offensive to someone else in another country, it's no excuse for flag burning and violence.

 

 

I think it is wrong to delete the cartoons, now nobody can see how innocent the cartoons are. This is a really bad thing. You should put the cartoons back. This is a disgrace to freedom of speech. please put it back. Don't give in too the pressure.

 

If you delete the cartoon now, than this is only the beginning.

 

Put it back... please.. this is wrong... don't give in to the pressure.

 

 

Some Muslims are offended by {censored} people, by women who speak out.. are you going to delete every message that is offending the extremist Mulims ?

 

No.. this is a disgrace... put it back.. now…. If you don’t put it back.. you are rewarding the extremist..

[teeching]

and also another thing ..No muslim can accepts whats done to innocent civilians ..in september 11..

 

you are generalising those cartoons as the leader of the muslims and also generalising all muslims as the schovenist killers...

[johan]

and also another thing ..No muslim can accepts whats done to innocent civilians ..in september 11..

 

you are generalising those cartoons as the leader of the muslims and also generalising all muslims as the schovenist killers...

 

 

cartoons like that have a long history in Western culture. Cartoons like that are not made to put down Muslims or to say gereralising things about them.

 

This is part of western culture. I think that we in the west should be able to live our lifes bij our own standaard and not by Mulsim standaards. You should really try too know Western culture and accept that it is different than yours.

 

If Muslism don't like Western culture.. don't read our newspapers. Nobody forces you to read them.

[Swad]

Wow, there's a lot going on in this thread!!!

 

First, teeching is right, the muslims who carried out 9/11 were extremists of the worst kind and don't speak for the majority of Muslims. It's like abortion clinic bombers in the US - a fringe majority.

 

Secondly, johan, I'm sure that there are things that someone could post here that would offend you as well. Pictures of bad things being done to Jesus or of partially aborted babies - you take your pick. It's not a freedom of speech issue, it's an issue of not offending someone if we have the chance. A simple google search will show you pictures bofors was talking about if you really want to see them. We took those pictures down for the same reason we take down porn that's posted or other highly offensive material - there's no point in seriously offending someone if it's just as easy not to.

 

I hate to censor anything, but I think this is one time where it is worth it. Sure, they're just cartoons, which mean nothing to those in the West. But they mean a great deal to those elsewhere.

 

If Muslism don't like Western culture.. don't read our newspapers. Nobody forces you to read them.

 

That's very true, and cartoons are a part of Western culture. However, there are a growing number of Muslims in Europe, which makes efforts like that more difficult.

 

Here's my question - I know that I've seen muslim paintings of the prophet before. Why are those allowed?

[johan]

Secondly, johan, I'm sure that there are things that someone could post here that would offend you as well. Pictures of bad things being done to Jesus or of partially aborted babies - you take your pick. It's not a freedom of speech issue, it's an issue of not offending someone if we have the chance. A simple google search will show you pictures bofors was talking about if you really want to see them.

 

I would never, or never have asked somebody too delete a message or picture. Even if it is offending to me.

 

My point is that , if you delete every message that is offending to someone.. well.. good luck then.

 

That is an attack on freedom of speech...

 

You have done a wrong thing.. sorry.. i am really pissed of... by this censorship. Now the extremist have won.

 

Now I am frightened for the future. This is only the beginning. You should never give in too request like that. I am sorry , but I really disagree. Totally

 

 

http://www.petitiononline.com/danmark/petition.html

http://skender.be/supportdenmark/more2.html#NL

 

 

[quixos]

to teecher, or any other muslim forum member, a question.

 

it is well known that the Danish people are among the most tolerant in the world. their government provides protection to religion and from religion. (more than 40% of muslims, and the percentage is higher including their children born, are refugees, guests, with the same legal rights as citizens.)

 

freedom of expression is legally protected there, the government has no right or legal power to control actions such as the drawing or publishing of the cartoons.

 

it also has no right to make the people offended by those cartoons read them, or buy from the companies that publish them, or impede lawful expressions of anger in print or speech.

 

so my question is, and i know you are not the entire muslim world.

 

why the hatred, anger, and most importantly, the incitement to violence directed at the government of Denmark, as it is known they have no power to stop publications such as these?

[Swad]

johan-

 

I totally respect your position - I stand up for free speech as much as anyone. I won't whitewash everything from this forum, but I'm also very wary of religious offense. The newspapers might have had a purpose for publishing the cartoons, but it serves no pupose to keep them here, ya know?

[Ouch]

I think it's clear that the primary goal of the cartoonist was to cause offense to muslims and to promote the ever more pervasive stereotype that all muslims are extremists just itching to blow themselves up in the name of God. How can europe and america claim to be tolerant societies while at the same time publish images intended purely to incite hatred.

 

I am not a muslim, i believe in the right of free speech - however the cartoons were in my view wholely unacceptable. Intelligent people should realise that just because you have a right to free speech it does not neccessarily follow that you should use that right to insult deeply held beliefs.

 

In the UK this week we came very close to passing a bill that would have made those images completely illegal - i'm glad their not, it is not the job of goverment to censor its citizens, its the responsibility of the citizens themselves. Anyone who can consider those images acceptable is as guilty of the same religious intolerance as the men who flew two planes into the world trade centre.

[DrJägermeister]

Now the extremist have won.

No absolutely not: now you can see this pics on few tousand blogs, and the "draw mohammad contest" has begun (I saw some strange & funny pics)

[johan]

I think it's clear that the primary goal of the cartoonist was to cause offense to muslims and to promote the ever more pervasive stereotype that all muslims are extremists just itching to blow themselves up in the name of God. How can europe and america claim to be tolerant societies while at the same time publish images intended purely to incite hatred.

 

Your personal opinion is that the images were made to incite hatred. But when somebody else thinks they are not. Who is right ?

 

So.. i think that it is not for individuals like you and me to decide if a picture is offinding or should be banned. That’s the principle of freedom of speech.

 

You know I am offended by a lot of things that are in the Bible and Koran. For example things they say about {censored}'s and women. But you don't see the bible or koran being banned..

 

So.. it’s not about people being offended, that can never be the leading principle because that ‘s an individual opinion .

 

The leading principle should always be the principle of freedom of speech.

 

You know.. what is offending to me. That the “offending” of Muslims is not acceptable by some people. But the offending of Western idea’s, {censored}’s rights and women’s rights is acceptable. That’s a double standard, if you aks me.

 

 

http://www.petitiononline.com/danmark/petition.html

http://skender.be/supportdenmark/more2.html#NL

 

 

[Swad]

Exactly DrJägermeister. There's no need to have them on yet another site.

 

You know.. what is offending to me. That the “offending” of Muslims is not acceptable by some people. But the offending of Western idea’s, {censored}’s rights and women’s rights is acceptable. That’s a double standard, if you aks me.

 

I think you're confusing a few issues here. The Bible says that homosexuality is wrong and there are legitimate secular arguments about that as well. But that's not "offending" in the way that muslims are offended. In America, for example, there is a man who goes around saying "God Hates {censored}" and posting pictures of the {censored} American student who was killed for (supposedly) being {censored}. They are rightfully "offended" by those things and if someone posted them here, you would want me to take it down, would you not?

[DrJägermeister]

however the cartoons were in my view wholely unacceptable.

Everyday I open the newspaper I saw cartoons about our politician, rockstars or other idiots. Sometimes it's funny, sometimes not. Fact is, this is part of our culture. Sometimes some jokes are not political correct but this is called "satire". I'm atheist and don't believe in {censored} like good, my religion is maybe football (soccer). If someone is posting "The German football team are pussys" I just don't give a {censored} about, but I'll never really attack him.

That's the way of life in a free society. I can think and say what I'm want.

[Ouch]

Your personal opinion is that the images were made to incite hatred. But when somebody else thinks they are not. Who is right ?

 

So.. i think that it is not for individuals like you and me to decide if a picture is offinding or should be banned. That’s the principle of freedom of speech.

 

Whether the images are personally offensive to you is not the point i was trying to make, rather the fact that anyone with half a brain must have realised that muslims would find them offensive - and that there was no clear purpose in publishing them other than to cause offense and i can't see how that is justifiable in any society that claims to be tolerant.

 

I am a christian and believe that all that the bible is God's word - therefore homosexuality is sinful. However that belief together with my right to free speech does not make it acceptable to me to ridicule, insult or attack homosexuals. The belief that free speech is somehow independent of any cultural/social sensitivity is just plain wrong - imho.

[johan]

I am a christian and believe that all that the bible is God's word - therefore homosexuality is sinful . However that belief together with my right to free speech does not make it acceptable to me to ridicule, insult or attack homosexuals. The belief that free speech is somehow independent of any cultural/social sensitivity is just plain wrong - imho.

 

You say homosexuality is sinful. to me that’s an insult and attack. Still I think that you have the right to say it. So in my opinion you are attacking and insulting me. But still I think that you should have the freedom to say it.

 

And you know: anyone with a sound mind would realise that {censored} people like me are offended by other people saying it is a sin. And still you are saying it.(even thou it is offending to {censored}’s) Its the same thing as making the cartoons. Just because you know people will be offended, can't be the reason not to say it.

 

If I would follow your logic, the bible should be banned. and you saying homosexuality is sinful should be censored.

 

I don't think you realize that, do you.

[Ouch]

If you find my beliefs offensive then i'm sorry you do but i can't help that - cultural tolerance cannot be used to justify a dilution of ones own personal beliefs nor prevent me from stating them. As a christian i believe all human beings are sinful and homosexuals no more or less so i don't intend to cause you any offense in particular.

 

However there is a difference between me stating my beliefs and drawing a cartoon vilifying homosexuals which i don't consider acceptable. Equally there is nothing wrong in stating that you don't beleive in islam or consider the prophet mohammed sacred in any way but drawing a cartoon villifying him cannot be acceptable.

[johan]

If you find my beliefs offensive then i'm sorry you do but i can't help that - cultural tolerance cannot be used to justify a dilution of ones own personal beliefs nor prevent me from stating them. As a christian i believe all human beings are sinful and homosexuals no more or less so i don't intend to cause you any offense in particular.

 

However there is a difference between me stating my beliefs and drawing a cartoon vilifying homosexuals which i don't consider acceptable. Equally there is nothing wrong in stating that you don't beleive in islam or consider the prophet mohammed sacred in any way but drawing a cartoon villifying him cannot be acceptable.

 

for you there may be a difference, between words and drawings.. for me not

 

that’s my personal opinion.

 

I know that you don't intend to offend me...( I was raised as an Christian so I know where you are coming from)

 

But in the end… every individual determents what is an insult or not..

 

Even if the maker of an cartoon , or you saying words like “homosexuality is an sin”. Does not have the intend to offend. The “offend “ in the eyes(mind) of the beholder.

 

So the leading Principe can not be the personal insult, but should be the principle of freedom of speech.

[Ouch]

Drawing or otherwise - if the paper had printed an article saying "mohammed was a terrorist" i would consider that equally wrong because there is no legitimate basis for such a belief. The key lies in the publishers motivation for printing the cartoon (or aticle or whatever). If it is to state or encourage discussion about a legitmately held belief then i think its perfectly acceptable. If its published for no reason other than to mock, as i believe the original cartoons were (unless you can offer an alternative reason as to why they were originally published), then thats not OK.

 

But i guess we are just going to have to disagree on this one - which is the best thing about living in countries where thats allowed too! Good discussion johan i'm going to bed.

 

Regards

[johan]

Drawing or otherwise - if the paper had printed an article saying "mohammed was a terrorist" i would consider that equally wrong because there is no legitimate basis for such a belief. The key lies in the publishers motivation for printing the cartoon (or aticle or whatever). If it is to state or encourage discussion about a legitmately held belief then i think its perfectly acceptable. If its published for no reason other than to mock, as i believe the original cartoons were, then thats not OK.

 

But i guess we are just going to have to disagree on this one - which is the best thing about living in countries where thats allowed too! Good discussion johan i'm going to bed.

 

Regards

 

The thing is, that the intend or motivation is also very personal. I believe that if the cartoon maker would tell you that he did not have the intend or motivation to insult Muslims(as the makers already stated". You still would not think that the cartoons are ok.

 

But I am happy that we life in an state were we are free to discuss and to disagree. But this freedom has been fought for hard by our parents and older generations.

 

It would shame them if we give in to the Muslims wish to censor the cartoon. It would be a return to the past. I do not want to go to the past.

 

 

I want to be free to mock, Christians, {censored}'s , Jews, women and Muslims too.

 

I understand that some Muslims are offended by the cartoons, but they should learn the accept how things are in the West. We should life by Western standards and not the Muslims standard, who I consider backwards and old fashioned.