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Abu Ghurab

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Americans are the most polite people by far always saying have a nice day or something similar I can't fault them. They are great to deal with cos they know what they want but seem helplesss and you help them and they're so greatful that you feel great for helping them. I love Americans they rock.

 

Yeah, Americans are great.... always smiling. Just like at Abu Ghurab.

 

[Edited by Mashugly, due to the stomach churning pictures. The actions of those few American guards are hated by all Americans, and they don't speak for any Americans I know of. Regardless, the images from Abu Ghurab are burned into all of our minds, and even just mentioning the name accomplishes the same thing. I don't like to censor, but pictures of abused, naked Iraqis are something better left unseen. I was acting on a complaint by other forum members, BTW.]

Edited by Mashugly

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[Edited by Mashugly, due to the stomach churning pictures. The actions of those few American guards are hated by all Americans, and they don't speak for any Americans I know of. Regardless, the images from Abu Ghurab are burned into all of our minds, and even just mentioning the name accomplishes the same thing. I don't like to censor, but pictures of abused, naked Iraqis are something better left unseen. I was acting on a complaint by other forum members, BTW.]

 

I do not object to your editing here.

 

However, I want to say something about "the actions of those few American guards..."

 

That is total {censored}... those Army reservists (part-time soldiers, "week-end warriors") who are now in jail are quite obvisously scapegoats. Those poor morons were fulling very clear and specifc orders from intelligence officers:

 

...Donald Rumsfeld's Defense Department is doing its best to stop potentially incriminating information from coming out, that it's deflecting Congress's inquiries and shielding higher-ups from investigation. Documents obtained by NEWSWEEK also suggest that Rumsfeld's aides are trying hard to contain the scandal, even within the Pentagon. Defense Under Secretary Douglas Feith, who is in charge of setting policy on prisoners and detainees in occupied Iraq, has banned any discussion of the still-classified report on Abu Ghraib written by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, which has circulated around the world. Shortly after the Taguba report leaked in early May, Feith subordinates sent an "urgent" e-mail around the Pentagon warning officials not to read the report, even though it was on Fox News. In the e-mail, a copy of which was obtained by NEWSWEEK, officials in Feith's office warn that the leak is being investigated for "criminal prosecution" and that no one should mention the Taguba report to anybody, even to family members.

 

...

 

More worrisome, critics say, is that the Pentagon is investigating itself. Maj. Gen. George Fay, the No. 2 in Army Military Intelligence, is in charge of the probe into whether his own intel officers directed the MPs to abuse prisoners.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5092776/site/newsweek/

 

According to the Army report:

 

Stephanowicz, a CACI interrogator, "[m]ade a false statement to the investigation team regarding the locations of his interrogations, the activities during his interrogations, and his knowledge of abuses." Further, investigators found, Stephanowicz encouraged Military Police to terrorize inmates, and "clearly knew his instructions equated to physical abuse."

 

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=10828

Edited by bofors

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Here's the thing, though - the first article you quoted was just about a coverup, which makes sense (even if it's horrible) because the pentagon didn't want any other info to get out.

 

The second article talks about the philosophy of one man.

 

These aren't representative of the whole American population. Now, there are some people who might agree with torture in the name of extracting critical information (would you if it meant possibly saving the lives of millions of people, in a hypothetical situation?). I'm not one of those people, but that's tough call.

 

But I don't know anyone who thinks torture for torture's sake is a good thing.

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Hey at least we are not cutting peoples heads off in the the name of (whatever diety you believe in).

Not to make light of a lesser of two evils but these people are and were not uniformed soldiers so allot of the rules that apply to war are null whether we like it or the media likes it. Terrorists can and will be tortured. It sucks that we as human beings need to evolve big time. I don't condone what these people did but sometimes you just can't be nice to bad people.

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a couple of thoughts:

 

Can anybody tell me anywere where torture has done any good? I think it is not justified by any means, it just places you on the same position as those whom you are judjing.

 

I find it amazing that americans are starting to belive torture may be a way out in some cases. It reminds me of an Orwell book where with time "some people where more equal than others"

 

In order to cease terrorism, you dont fight it (i has never worked). You need to provide solutions to the causes that have brought up terrorism. As an example, terrorism is rapidly going away(or becoming extinct) in SouthAmerica, where democracies have become stable. It has almos dissapeared in Ireland for the same cause, South Africa, etc..etc..

 

Terrorism from middle east DOES NOT have its roots on religion.

Just like Religion was not the caus of terrorism in Ireland.

It is oppresion and social injustice, such as Jews and Palestinians, Russian, then Taliban in Afganistan, and a very stupid and unjustified war that we all know was based on lies in Iraq. And you can go on with a huge list of "not very intelligent" or fair support to most of middle eastern countries by a USA foreing policy.

 

You do not need to read Al Jazeera or stuff like that (Which I never have) but if you look at US foreing policy from outside US, you may notice it is not really fair. Try and read german, french spaniard or any othe Euopean (even british) or southam media or newspaper and be more autocritical.

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Hey at least we are not cutting peoples heads off in the the name of (whatever diety you believe in).

Not to make light of a lesser of two evils but these people are and were not uniformed soldiers so allot of the rules that apply to war are null whether we like it or the media likes it. Terrorists can and will be tortured. It sucks that we as human beings need to evolve big time. I don't condone what these people did but sometimes you just can't be nice to bad people.

 

How on earth did you get those fact? They are prisoners of war and they should be treated as such. But come to think of it, US did invade Iraq without the approval of UN, and do so based on a bogus intelligence information (I would say it's tampered and fake though...). So yeah, your soldiers could go on and beat just about anyone without uniforms...

 

Great logic you have there

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I would argue against torture not on humanitarian grounds rather based on the fact that it plain doesn't work. Torture is widely regarded as an unreliable means of extracting information as the captive will almost always resort to telling his captor exactly what he wants to hear in order to avoid further torture.

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It is oppresion and social injustice, such as Jews and Palestinians, Russian, then Taliban in Afganistan, and a very stupid and unjustified war that we all know was based on lies in Iraq. And you can go on with a huge list of "not very intelligent" or fair support to most of middle eastern countries by a USA foreing policy.

 

Keep in mind that the terrorism came before the invasion of Iraq. That's important to remember. Also, to say that it doesn't have a religious dimension isn't correct. It may not be fully motivated by religion, but the people carrying out the attacks do quite often bring religion into the discussion.

 

On torture... again, there are two kinds of torture. There's torture in the Tower of London style - just doing it for the sake of pain. That's what Abu Ghurab was. Then there's torture to get information, which is a trickier issue. I think torture is wrong in any case, but if, for example, torture could extract information which could save millions of lives (in the case of a nuke or something like that), it's true nature is exposed and the consequences become greater.

 

I'm with Kant (philosopher) on this one - the ends can't justify the means.

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It may not be fully motivated by religion, but the people carrying out the attacks do quite often bring religion into the discussion.

 

On torture... again, there are two kinds of torture. There's torture in the Tower of London style - just doing it for the sake of pain. That's what Abu Ghurab was. Then there's torture to get information, which is a trickier issue. I think torture is wrong in any case, but if, for example, torture could extract information which could save millions of lives (in the case of a nuke or something like that), it's true nature is exposed and the consequences become greater.

 

I'm with Kant (philosopher) on this one - the ends can't justify the means.

 

It is easier to fool people into violence by telling them they will be redeemed in paradise!

But that doesn´t mean that violence comes from religion. There are many muslims in this forum and I´ve never heard a word from them supporting violence.

 

 

As of torture, I strongly belive that it hasn´t done any good and never will. The end does NOT justify the means.

But as oppossed to the first paragraph, many "americans" in this forum are starting to belive that torture "may be acceptable in some occasions"

 

THAT IS SCARY!

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