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Microsoft pays for inaccurate "Apple Tax" study, issues 3rd TV ad

Technobob

By Technobob,
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Technobob
Technobob
Posted
Posted
Many of the same errors are repeated and at times magnified for desktops. Even when discounting glaring mistakes made in describing only discontinued Macs in charts but new models in text, the analyst dismisses the relevance of significantly faster graphics in the Mac mini, iMac and Mac Pro while simultaneously trumpeting relatively small advantages in the Windows PCs, like card readers and TV tuners. The processors, amount of memory, and storage in current-generation Macs are now equal to and sometimes better than the Dell and HP systems chosen by Kay and Microsoft for the comparison chart.

 

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/04..._tax_study.html

underball
underball
Posted
Posted

When you say "Microsoft pays for inaccurate..." I would have assumed that meant there was a lawsuit or settlement, not just a couple of no-name Apple fanboy bloggers vaguely calling them out on their ad campaign by twisting their words and the timeline of when the ads were actually produced. :thanks_speechbubble:

 

Nothing like waiting until a couple of Months after the ads were put togehter and Mac announced new system specs for teh as-yet unreleased updated machines to try and skew things so Apple doesnt' look liek their stuff is ridiculously overpriced.

booger_sniffer5000
booger_sniffer5000
Posted
Posted
Most people just see Mac fanboys bitching but this is not about Mac vs PC it's about truth in advertising.

 

A more interesting read from The Register

So Macs aren't overpriced, is what you are saying?

Konami®
Konami®
Posted
Posted

The way I see Apple why their value cost more, is beyond hardware, the real value come with the software and support. When one company like Apple make the computer, the OS and even iLife with all the features, and of course the hardware. You have a wonderful ecosystem that is not equally the same when you buy a windows PC. Do you understand what I mean?

underball
underball
Posted
Posted
The way I see Apple why their value cost more, is beyond hardware, the real value come with the software and support. When one company like Apple make the computer, the OS and even iLife with all the features, and of course the hardware. You have a wonderful ecosystem that is not equally the same when you buy a windows PC. Do you understand what I mean?

 

Apple hasn't made the hardware for the last two generations of Mac products now.

 

I think you missed the point. They are using vastly cheaper to produce hardware (Intel, nVidia), and charging almost double for computers that PC manufacturers are using the EXACT same hardware specs in.

Konami®
Konami®
Posted
Posted
Apple hasn't made the hardware for the last two generations of Mac products now.

 

I think you missed the point. They are using vastly cheaper to produce hardware (Intel, nVidia), and charging almost double for computers that PC manufacturers are using the EXACT same hardware specs in.

 

I agree with you, but my point is that the way of their OS is with iLife bundled into each Mac computer and the support that you got into an unified ecosystem is not the same as a PC with windows. I also agree that Apple does not get it with the latest PC technologies, like for example they did not update yet to Intel i7, and they did not add Blu-ray. I think the high cost is with software and support.

underball
underball
Posted
Posted
I agree with you, but my point is that the way of their OS is with iLife bundled into each Mac computer and the support that you got into an unified ecosystem is not the same as a PC with windows. That's what I am trying you to understand why the price is high with the same or inferior hardware of a Windows PC.

 

all of the products in iLife have equivalents in Windows Vista, built right into the Operating system, not as a separate "added value" optional software package - and not at an additional cost.

 

iPhoto - Windows Picture Viewer.

 

iMovie - Windows Movie Maker.

 

iDVD - Windows DVD maker.

 

iWeb - Vista Website Setup wizard

chasingcharlie
chasingcharlie
Posted
Posted
The way I see Apple why their value cost more, is beyond hardware, the real value come with the software and support. When one company like Apple make the computer, the OS and even iLife with all the features, and of course the hardware. You have a wonderful ecosystem that is not equally the same when you buy a windows PC. Do you understand what I mean?

 

Well, that's not been my experience with Apple support. My company takes older computers and puts them in a surplus warehouse. I "found" about five G4s that were all great -- except the drives had been wiped and there was no OS disks with them. (Another department had upgraded but did not include the disks. There was no record of who sent them to the warehouse.)

 

I talked to Apple and we were willing to BUY the software, but Apple would not sell the software! So five G4s that were perfectly good had to be trashed. I've bought all kinds of older OSs for PCs. It just doesn't sound like good business to me.

 

Now, I like Macs and in fact have a new Mac Book Pro but this other deal really left a bad taste in my mouth. Isn't Apple supposed to be the leaders in "green" computers/policy? If so, it's not all the time because Apple had me trash five perfectly good G4s. (I couldn't even find the software on eBay.)

 

charlie

Konami®
Konami®
Posted
Posted
all of the products in iLife have equivalents in Windows Vista, built right into the Operating system, not as a separate "added value" optional software package - and not at an additional cost.

 

iPhoto - Windows Picture Viewer.

 

iMovie - Windows Movie Maker.

 

iDVD - Windows DVD maker.

 

iWeb - Vista Website Setup wizard

 

I find more reliable the software from Apple than in Vista, and I am a PC Windows Vista user but I just can't handle Vista anymore, is just horrible. The only thing that I found in Vista better was the Media Center feature.

MaestroX1
MaestroX1
Posted
Posted
all of the products in iLife have equivalents in Windows Vista, built right into the Operating system, not as a separate "added value" optional software package - and not at an additional cost.

 

iPhoto - Windows Picture Viewer.

 

iMovie - Windows Movie Maker.

 

iDVD - Windows DVD maker.

 

iWeb - Vista Website Setup wizard

 

Not sure you can just compare the programs like that. For instance, Windows Picture Viewer is just that, a picture viewer. A better comparison would be with Live Photo Gallery, which is much more functional. I don't know about the others as I haven't used them, but I'm certain you can do more with iPhoto than view pictures. Isn't that what Preview is for?

V Plamondon
V Plamondon
Posted
Posted

If one were to shift the focus from "Apple charges 'apple tax'" and look at what one gets for the 'apple tax' we would be pleasantly surprised.

 

Although I don't have a macintosh, I believe the macintosh is an excellent value for anyone below "computer guru" status, and I'll use my mom's recent aquisition as the first example.

 

Knowing I did not use macintoshes my mom had refrained from getting my advice, but I think she was surprised when she did. I basically told her that starting from the Macbook white, any of the macintoshes would meet her needs.

 

The moment I walked into the Apple Store with her I was quite impressed, Apple computers were set up everywhere and accessible for everyone to try out. The salesman walked her through everything the macbook could do, to allow her to see if it could fulfill her needs.

 

When we examine the needs of an ordinary consumer, the average consumer is looking for something that fulfills their needs, and they couldn't care less about the bells and whistles, so how does Apple fulfill their needs.

 

Let's look at all the basic factors:

 

For the average person, literally any computer will be capable of meeting anyones needs, computer gamers will require competant graphics capability beyond the minmum, and windows users (whether using pc's or macs) will require more ram beyond the minimum.

 

At first glance, it would seem that macintoshes are at a significant disadvantage, but let's examine what we must do to set up a new computer for personal use.

 

If I set up someone's windows pc for them, (sometimes install, optimise, ms office or openoffice, nero, firefox, drivers, printer setup, copy data from old, media software of various kinds, etc) it takes me 2 to 5 hours, and as I bill out $250.00 an hour for what I currently do, that is $500.00 to $1250.00.

 

If my mom sets up her own windows pc it takes her 10 to 20 hours to set up her computer, and at her wages of $40.00 an hour, that is $400.00 to $800.00.

 

If some one who is living in poverty, making $7.00 an hour for example, spent 15 hours settin up their pc, it would cost them $105.00, but it is safe to assume, that unless buying a used or refurbished mac, people below a certain wage level (maybe below $20.00 an hour) cannot realistically afford an apple, so whatever value the "apple tax" affords them doesn't matter.

 

Anyone realistically planning to purchase a new computer is realistically going to need to budget anywhere from $500.00 to $2500.00 in order to do so. If a new buyer is ok with refurbished, than mac mini's and macbook white's are available starting at $500.00 USD.

 

For mainstream gaming the minimum required will be one of the new macbook white ($1149.00 CAN) or the mac min ($729.00 CAN) and running windows will require at least 1 more GB ram ($60.00 CAN).

 

At this point it seems that windows pc's are $200.00 to $300.00 cheaper than mac's, but when we examine how long it took my mom to set up her mac, in which she didn't need any help with, it only took her a couple of hours to be on the run. That by itself is a great feature justifying the greater cost.

 

There are many more reasons why mac's are great for the average person;

 

- Don't need to reformat and reset up main OS every 3 - 12 months.

- For those who aren't very computer literate, it just works.

- Don't need the services of a computer professional to maintain and service, it works right.

- VMWare Fusion is an excellent way to run windows, while protecting your main OS from malicous windows code.

- the proliferation of hackintoshes allow anyone to benefit from Apple's software.

AndrewNZ
AndrewNZ
Posted
Posted

Rather than include your whole response as a quote, I'd like to adress your finishing remarks as that's sort of the issue I think. First, I'm a long-time Mac user (since '86) and an owner currently. Having got that out of the way, I respectfully disagree with your summation.

 

"Don't need to reformat and reset up main OS every 3 - 12 months."

Not so. Each time I update to a new OS X point release I do a clean install. I do this because in my humble experience, I have things that worked fine in the existing install break, and Apple are frequently at a loss as to how to fix the issues. The Apple community also is oftentimes unable to find a solution, despite their many and varied workarounds.

 

"For those who aren't very computer literate, it just works."

So does Windows. If you buy a PC with the OS and software already installed, it too just works.

 

"Don't need the services of a computer professional to maintain and service, it works right."

That's actually two separate points so I'll address each...

 

The average Windows user doesn't need those professional services either. For example, my big sister has been a Windows user for more than a decade and she's never needed such assistance. In fact, she's never even asked me for help. While that doesn't answer for every Windows user out there, it's plain that your first point above implies that all people who use OSes other than Mac OS X need a computer professional to use those OSes. That is certainly not true. Some people do, of course, but some Mac users also need professional assistance.

 

It "works right" is, I'm afraid, a matter of opinion. You can decry Windows as much as you like, but I have never seen that OS brought to its knees by a corrupt font. That's right, something as inconsequential as a friggin' font can cripple OS X 10.5.6. If that's your idea of working "right", it's a whole lot different to mine. There's a bucketload of things that the Mac OS gets away with beause it's a closed universe and the engineers can cobble up hacks to disguise its shortfalls, but when you compare it to how seemingly smoothly Windows now deals with seemingly infinite numbers of unknown drivers and new hardware, it makes you realise just how well engineered it is. Regardless of the flak that it takes.

 

"VMWare Fusion is an excellent way to run windows, while protecting your main OS from malicous windows code."

Perhaps so. Is your main OS Windows? Or OSX86? I don't know what you're getting at, but my Win7 and Vista installations auto update themselves with whatever security fixes the OS or software makers think are needed. And guess what? It just works. Go figure.

 

"the proliferation of hackintoshes allow anyone to benefit from Apple's software."

Yes that's entirely true, if the masses can be bothered jumping through whatever hoops we InsanelyMac folk do. Not everyone will feel confident enough to attempt it but those who do will either enjoy the challenge and feeling of accomplishment at achieving success, or will give up in disgust, wondering what's so great about Apple, the Mac and especially OS X.

 

The article that spawned this thread was a pro-Apple, biased piece from a Mac fansite that spends its waking moments bashing anything that looks to threaten Apple. One of the things I like about InsanelyMac is the fact that most here, while enjoying the products that Apple produces for the most part, are not the blinkered fanboys you find in droves at AppleInsider, MacDailyNews and Macworld to mention a few. We're all entitled to our opinions, but some stuff would be best left unsaid or reserved for the fansites as above. In my humble opinion, of course. :P

underball
underball
Posted
Posted
The article that spawned this thread was a pro-Apple, biased piece from a Mac fansite that spends its waking moments bashing anything that looks to threaten Apple. One of the things I like about InsanelyMac is the fact that most here, while enjoying the products that Apple produces for the most part, are not the blinkered fanboys you find in droves at AppleInsider, MacDailyNews and Macworld to mention a few. We're all entitled to our opinions, but some stuff would be best left unsaid or reserved for the fansites as above. In my humble opinion, of course. :blink:

 

This^^^.

 

 

And yeah, I'm still trying to figure out what TechnoBoob meant by "Microsoft Pays for innaccurate ads..." as far as I know, they haven't paid a single penny to anyone, for anything related to this story.

V Plamondon
V Plamondon
Posted
Posted

AndrewNZ, I think we wandered away from the point I was trying to make, that if there were an "apple tax", that the benefits of macs would compensate for the "apple tax".

 

Not so. Each time I update to a new OS X point release I do a clean install. I do this because in my humble experience, I have things that worked fine in the existing install break, and Apple are frequently at a loss as to how to fix the issues. The Apple community also is oftentimes unable to find a solution, despite their many and varied workarounds.

Not saying that mac users never have to do a clean install, what I am saying is that Mac OS doesn't become unstable through regular use (viruses, antivirus software, malicous spyware and antipiracy code, etc) as quickly as windows, and I'm not suggesting it's Microsoft's fault either, that's just the reality of the situation.

 

So does Windows. If you buy a PC with the OS and software already installed, it too just works.

My point is that their is value in the appropriate software already being installed and usable, the lowest price I've seen in my locale to preinstall software is $100.00. The major manufacturers bundle additional software, but not for free, I'll concede that Apple does the same for iLife. Nothing I've seen in XP or Vista tells me that a vanilla install has the same functionality as Mac OS.

 

The average Windows user doesn't need those professional services either. For example, my big sister has been a Windows user for more than a decade and she's never needed such assistance. In fact, she's never even asked me for help. While that doesn't answer for every Windows user out there, it's plain that your first point above implies that all people who use OSes other than Mac OS X need a computer professional to use those OSes. That is certainly not true. Some people do, of course, but some Mac users also need professional assistance.

I am in the position of being the friend/roommate/family member/IT professional often asked for advice, help with installation issues, actually fixing problems, and more of my spare time is consumed by the 2 windows pcs I maintain than the approximately dozen linux boxes and handful of macintoshes that I am occasionally asked to look at.

 

As far as I'm concerned, anyone asking a friend/roommate/family member/IT professional for help, is aquiring the services of a professional, regardless of whether money exchanges hands, and personally, I am very insulted by those who place such demands on my spare time and don't appreciate it.

 

Your experience may be different, but my experience has been that windows users need more professional assistance than mac users, and I'm not saying that all windows users need assistance and mac users don't need any.

 

It "works right" is, I'm afraid, a matter of opinion. You can decry Windows as much as you like, but I have never seen that OS brought to its knees by a corrupt font. That's right, something as inconsequential as a friggin' font can cripple OS X 10.5.6. If that's your idea of working "right", it's a whole lot different to mine. There's a bucketload of things that the Mac OS gets away with beause it's a closed universe and the engineers can cobble up hacks to disguise its shortfalls, but when you compare it to how seemingly smoothly Windows now deals with seemingly infinite numbers of unknown drivers and new hardware, it makes you realise just how well engineered it is. Regardless of the flak that it takes.

 

Apparantly, you have needed the services of a computer professional at some point, actually proving my point. I'm sure a professional's first suggestion was to rebuild the font cache, and if such didn't work, delete the font. If it might have been neccesary to enter single user mode or boot from a live cd of some sort to do so, if neither of these would of worked, your problems were not caused by a corrupt font.

 

Perhaps so. Is your main OS Windows? Or OSX86? I don't know what you're getting at, but my Win7 and Vista installations auto update themselves with whatever security fixes the OS or software makers think are needed. And guess what? It just works. Go figure.

 

I don't know why I would have to clarify "malicous windows code" to "malicous code, probably not written by microsoft, running on windows", as I was assuming most people would assume that microsoft does not write malicous code.

 

Tell you what, run windows vista for six months, using and installing all the software you normally use, track the time you spend maintaining your system, and you will be surprised. Now decide if you want to inflict that hassle on an average user, who may not know how to do such.

 

The article that spawned this thread was a pro-Apple, biased piece from a Mac fansite that spends its waking moments bashing anything that looks to threaten Apple. One of the things I like about InsanelyMac is the fact that most here, while enjoying the products that Apple produces for the most part, are not the blinkered fanboys you find in droves at AppleInsider, MacDailyNews and Macworld to mention a few. We're all entitled to our opinions, but some stuff would be best left unsaid or reserved for the fansites as above. In my humble opinion, of course.

 

To me this suggests you are impying I should have kept my opinion to myself. Why?

Superhai
Superhai
Posted
Posted

I believe that you pay a bit more for Apple machines, but I know from experience that they also spend more on aesthetics and technical build quality, often the best price is when they are released but apple tend to not drop the price so much as the models age, so specwise they have poorer value when bought later compared to "PC's".

 

This is what Microsoft paid for if it wasn't clear: http://www.ndpta.com/files/AppleTax.pdf

 

You should read it and make your own judgement. It is the Table 3 on page 9 that makes it interesting. What it really shows is not what apple overcharge, but that Apple miss a cheaper mac model class in between imac and mac pro (hence it is why psystar found its niche). And I don't know that adding MobileMe is comparable, when there was not an option on the "other side". I also checked hp for that model, and it cost me 300 USD more than here for a basic model including hp care (apple care is added in the calc). It also looks like he will get all his windows software from demonoid, as it is not calculated in at all. Office would have added around 150 USD for the hp.

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