101 replies to this topic

[johan]

0uch!p0tat0, on Feb 3 2006, 08:24 PM, said:

I am a christian and believe that all that the bible is God's word - therefore homosexuality is sinful . However that belief together with my right to free speech does not make it acceptable to me to ridicule, insult or attack homosexuals. The belief that free speech is somehow independent of any cultural/social sensitivity is just plain wrong - imho.

You say homosexuality is sinful.  to me that’s an insult and attack. Still I think that you have the right to say it. So in my opinion you are attacking and insulting me. But still I think that you should have the freedom to say it.

And you know: anyone with a sound mind would realise that gay people like me are offended by other people saying it is a sin. And still you are saying it.(even thou it is offending to gay’s) Its the same thing as making the cartoons.  Just because you know people will be offended, can't be the reason not to say it.

If I would follow your logic, the bible should be banned. and you saying homosexuality is sinful should be censored.  

I don't think you realize that, do you.

[Ouch]

If you find my beliefs offensive then i'm sorry you do but i can't help that - cultural tolerance cannot be used to justify a dilution of ones own personal beliefs nor prevent me from stating them. As a christian i believe all human beings are sinful and homosexuals no more or less so i don't intend to cause you any offense in particular.

However there is a difference between me stating my beliefs and drawing a cartoon vilifying homosexuals which i don't consider acceptable. Equally there is nothing wrong in stating that you don't beleive in islam or consider the prophet mohammed sacred in any way but drawing a cartoon villifying him cannot be acceptable.

[johan]

0uch!p0tat0, on Feb 3 2006, 08:45 PM, said:

If you find my beliefs offensive then i'm sorry you do but i can't help that - cultural tolerance cannot be used to justify a dilution of ones own personal beliefs nor prevent me from stating them. As a christian i believe all human beings are sinful and homosexuals no more or less so i don't intend to cause you any offense in particular.

However there is a difference between me stating my beliefs and drawing a cartoon vilifying homosexuals which i don't consider acceptable. Equally there is nothing wrong in stating that you don't beleive in islam or consider the prophet mohammed sacred in any way but drawing a cartoon villifying him cannot be acceptable.

for you there may be a difference, between words and drawings.. for me not

that’s my personal opinion.

I know that you don't intend to offend me...( I was raised as an Christian so I know where you are coming from)

But in the end… every individual determents what is an insult or not..

Even if the maker of an cartoon , or you saying words like “homosexuality is an sin”. Does not have the intend to offend. The “offend “  in the eyes(mind) of the beholder.

So the leading Principe can not be the personal  insult, but should be the principle of freedom of speech.

[Ouch]

Drawing or otherwise - if the paper had printed an article saying "mohammed was a terrorist" i would consider that equally wrong because there is no legitimate basis for such a belief. The key lies in the publishers motivation for printing the cartoon (or aticle or whatever). If it is to state or encourage discussion about a legitmately held belief then i think its perfectly acceptable. If its published for no reason other than to mock, as i believe the original cartoons were (unless you can offer an alternative reason as to why they were originally published), then thats not OK.

But i guess we are just going to have to disagree on this one - which is the best thing about living in countries where thats allowed too! Good discussion johan i'm going to bed.

Regards

[johan]

0uch!p0tat0, on Feb 3 2006, 09:10 PM, said:

Drawing or otherwise - if the paper had printed an article saying "mohammed was a terrorist" i would consider that equally wrong because there is no legitimate basis for such a belief. The key lies in the publishers motivation for printing the cartoon (or aticle or whatever). If it is to state or encourage discussion about a legitmately held belief then i think its perfectly acceptable. If its published for no reason other than to mock, as i believe the original cartoons were, then thats not OK.

But i guess we are just going to have to disagree on this one - which is the best thing about living in countries where thats allowed too! Good discussion johan i'm going to bed.

Regards

The thing is, that the intend or motivation is also very personal. I believe that if the cartoon maker would tell you that he did not have the intend or motivation to insult Muslims(as the makers already stated". You still would not think that the cartoons are ok.

But I am happy that we life in an state were we are free to discuss and to disagree. But this freedom has been fought for hard by our parents and older generations.

It would shame them if we give in to the Muslims wish to censor the cartoon. It would be a return to the past. I do not want to go to the past.


I want to be free to mock, Christians, gay's , Jews, women  and Muslims too.

I understand that some Muslims are offended by the cartoons, but they should learn the accept how things are in the West. We should life by Western standards and not the Muslims standard, who I consider backwards and old fashioned.

[teeching]

Dear Brothers of mine ...Quixos , Johan , Dear Bofors ,  Jas , Mashugly , And everybody Contrbuting this forum.....

HERE IS THE EXPLANATION...

Showing The prophets face ..trying to decribe the visuality is not really a good thing in Muslim culture ..considered to be a sin ...But also since the empires ages Ottomans and others the miniature arts and others never showed the prohets face...

We have a saying here ...

GOLD IS GOLD ...EVEN YOU DROP IT TO THE MUDDY WATERS ..

So I can say A go to the discussion and go ... But thats not the thing ..the thing is YOU ARE INVOLVONG IN A CULTURE THAT YOU ARE NOT BELONGING TO AND ALSO IN A RUDE MANNER IN THAT CULTURE AND A OFFENSIVE (ACTUALLY THE MOST OFFENSIVE WAY ) MANNER ... YOU CAN SWEAR IN THE NAME OF ALLAH WE WONT BE CARING THAT ( I MEAN THE SWEARING :::JUST LIKE FCUK )

BUT
NOONE EVEN CANNOT ACCEPT ANY LOW COMMENT TO THE PROPHET .. THIS IS  RULEEEE !!! THIS IS THE PLACE WHERE YOU ARE MISUNDERSTANDING ... THATS A RULE ... THATS A CRITERIA .. WE DONT EVEN PRONOUNCE HIS NAME WITHOUT SAYING PBUH (PRAISE BE UPON HIM ) WE REALLY SALUTE HIS NAME WE DO LOVE HIM SO MUCH AND WE CANNOT ACCEPT THAT..

SO LADIES AND GENTLEMAN ..

PLEASE DO  CARE PEOPLE..
I SWEAR IN THE NAME OF GOD ..EXCEPT VIOLENCE DELIVERERS .. I DO LOVE EVERYONE LIVING.. I SWEAR IN THE NAME OF ALLAH..  AND EVEN FROM THE AFRO AMERICANS BEING KICKED BY POLICE IN USA , TO THE CHILDREN KILLED IN  PALESTINE OR THE WHALES HUNTED WITHOUT ANY PATIENCE ,   TO THE ONES DIED IN 11 SEPT..I FEEL SORRY FOR EVERY INNOCENT MOVEMENT IN THE WORLD .. REALLY I CANNOT EVEN WATCH THE FUR TAKERS IN CHINA FROM LIVING ANIMALS ..AND Most OF THE MUSLIMS IN THE WORLD ARE LIKE THIS ...

I SWEAR

BECAUSE OUR BELIEF SAYS THAT ...DO  TRUST ME ...

[johan]

teeching, on Feb 3 2006, 09:56 PM, said:

But thats not the thing ..the thing is YOU ARE INVOLVONG IN A CULTURE THAT YOU ARE NOT BELONGING TO AND ALSO IN A RUDE MANNER IN THAT CULTURE AND A OFFENSIVE (ACTUALLY THE MOST OFFENSIVE WAY ) MANNER ... YOU CAN SWEAR IN THE NAME OF ALLAH WE WONT BE CARING THAT ( I MEAN THE SWEARING :::JUST LIKE FCUK )

I think that Muslims are trying to involve and influence our Western culture.

I understand if Muslims are doing that in Muslims states.

But in Western states like Denmark.. stay out and don't try  to tell us how we should life our lives.

If we want to mock religion in comics we are free to do that... get used to that.

SO TEECHING AND ALL BROTHERS ALL OVER THE WORLD , PLEASE BELIEVE ME. I LIKE CHILDREN, FLOWERS AND ALL PEOPLE> BUT I LIKE ME FREEDOM OF SPEECH THE MOST

[Swad]

Quote

I think that Muslims are trying to involve and influence our Western culture.

I understand if Muslims are doing that in Muslims states.

But in Western states like Denmark.. stay out and don't try to tell us how we should life our lives.

I'm not sure that there is such a divide any more.  Sure, there was at one point, but Islam is now the second largest religion in Europe.  As I'm sure you know (and has been much debated) Muslims are coming to Europe in droves.  The times of being able to tell them not to pay attention have passed, I think.

[molecule]

teeching, on Feb 3 2006, 09:56 PM, said:

Dear Brothers of mine ...Quixos , Johan , Dear Bofors ,  Jas , Mashugly , And everybody Contrbuting this forum.....

HERE IS THE EXPLANATION...

Showing The prophets face ..trying to decribe the visuality is not really a good thing in Muslim culture ..considered to be a sin ...But also since the empires ages Ottomans and others the miniature arts and others never showed the prohets face...

We have a saying here ...

GOLD IS GOLD ...EVEN YOU DROP IT TO THE MUDDY WATERS ..

So I can say A go to the discussion and go ... But thats not the thing ..the thing is YOU ARE INVOLVONG IN A CULTURE THAT YOU ARE NOT BELONGING TO AND ALSO IN A RUDE MANNER IN THAT CULTURE AND A OFFENSIVE (ACTUALLY THE MOST OFFENSIVE WAY ) MANNER ... YOU CAN SWEAR IN THE NAME OF ALLAH WE WONT BE CARING THAT ( I MEAN THE SWEARING :::JUST LIKE FCUK )

BUT
NOONE EVEN CANNOT ACCEPT ANY LOW COMMENT TO THE PROPHET .. THIS IS  RULEEEE !!! THIS IS THE PLACE WHERE YOU ARE MISUNDERSTANDING ... THATS A RULE ... THATS A CRITERIA .. WE DONT EVEN PRONOUNCE HIS NAME WITHOUT SAYING PBUH (PRAISE BE UPON HIM ) WE REALLY SALUTE HIS NAME WE DO LOVE HIM SO MUCH AND WE CANNOT ACCEPT THAT..

SO LADIES AND GENTLEMAN ..

PLEASE DO  CARE PEOPLE..
I SWEAR IN THE NAME OF GOD ..EXCEPT VIOLENCE DELIVERERS .. I DO LOVE EVERYONE LIVING.. I SWEAR IN THE NAME OF ALLAH..  AND EVEN FROM THE AFRO AMERICANS BEING KICKED BY POLICE IN USA , TO THE CHILDREN KILLED IN  PALESTINE OR THE WHALES HUNTED WITHOUT ANY PATIENCE ,   TO THE ONES DIED IN 11 SEPT..I FEEL SORRY FOR EVERY INNOCENT MOVEMENT IN THE WORLD .. REALLY I CANNOT EVEN WATCH THE FUR TAKERS IN CHINA FROM LIVING ANIMALS ..AND Most OF THE MUSLIMS IN THE WORLD ARE LIKE THIS ...

I SWEAR

BECAUSE OUR BELIEF SAYS THAT ...DO  TRUST ME ...

the problem is that you need to calm down... burning flags, kidnapping people, massive demonstrations, boycotts and violence, for what? a cartoon... muslims are taking it too far too often it seems... i'm sorry to say this but i'm fearing a ww2 rerun all over again but with other parts involved... this time hitler will probably be the USA and the jews muslims because of this fanatic idiocy that spreads fear around the world... the world will not tolerate this kind of behavior forever, seeking every opportunity and always reacting with violence.

calm down, calm down...

/M

[johan]

Mashugly, on Feb 3 2006, 10:17 PM, said:

I'm not sure that there is such a divide any more.  Sure, there was at one point, but Islam is now the second largest religion in Europe.  As I'm sure you know (and has been much debated) Muslims are coming to Europe in droves.  The times of being able to tell them not to pay attention have passed, I think.

Sure Muslims who live in Denmark have the right to speak out and vote , and use their democratic rights.

But.. that’s not what is happening right now.. Muslims who live in not western states try to tell people in an Western state how to live.

That’s a big difference

You know I am very involved in this subject. I am a teacher. I give lessons to Muslims.

I teach them the values we have in the Netherlands. So I know what I am talking about.

Muslims who live in the West, should know our values and have respect for them.

And I can tell you. Most Muslims I teach are very nice people. But most of them know nothing about the native culture in the Netherlands.

So it is important to know and understand all cultures. Not just Western people knowing Muslims believes . But also Muslims knowing our values and respecting them.

If that would happen, I think they would not be so mad about the cartoons. The would realise that is not about hurting or disrespecting Muslims. Its about different way’s and values’

[teeching]

i am calm...but really hard to understand people...

look lets think you are growing tulips ...and there is man shouting there .... Whoever grows tulips is fool...and someone says that well he has his ideas ...it is the freedom of thinking...

thats so ridicilous for me....

and this is not only botanics...thats the deepest point since the existence of human beings....

why will i need to let people who doesnt care about other people in the name of freedom of thinking....

FREEDOM OF THINKING IS AGAINST IDEAS NOT THE PEOPLE...YOU CAN THINK IN A DIFFERENT WAY.. TELL THAT...TRY TO EXPLAIN THAT..BUT YOU CANNOT INSULT THE ROOTS..THE DOGMAS...THE MASS BELIEFS...IF YOU GO AND START QUARRELING ABOUT THE SIDE EFFECTS OF ALCOHOL WITH A LOUD VOICE IN A HEAVY DRINKERS BAR ... THEY WILL KICK YOUR LOVELY ASS...AND YOU CANT SAY "WELL .. THIS IS FREEDOM OF THOUGHT "

[ripoflive]

What I want to know is why the hell is this cartoon being made in the first place???? It isnt in the least bit funny and its making fun of one of the best human beings of all time! This is a proof of how ignorant people can be! When christian do something stupid (which happens alot!), like the Columbine incident or the McVeigh incident, muslims dont go and make fun of Jesus! This is stupidity at its greatest......

[teeching]

Quote

If that would happen, I think they would not be so mad about the cartoons. The would realise that is not about hurting or disrespecting Muslims. Its about different way’s and values’

Funny...Really

if that is hurting people ...then what is it for ....if it is disrespecting ...then what is it for ? I am trying to explain even you are not aiming to hurt or disrespect...THAT IS HURTING AND DISRESPECTFUL FOR A MUSLIM....

IF I GO TO A CHURCH AND TRY TO PEE ON THE DOOR WILL YOU ACCEPT THIS ...IT IS NOT ABOUT WAYS AND VALUES..IT IS JUST ABOUT LOSS OF EMOTIONAL QUANTITY AND NOT USING EMPATHY....

THATS RUDE ...CULTURE LOSS CAUSES THOSE...PROVOCATING ( SOUNDS A MEANING ? )

[DrJägermeister]

teeching, on Feb 3 2006, 10:41 PM, said:

IF I GO TO A CHURCH AND TRY TO PEE ON THE DOOR WILL YOU ACCEPT THIS ...

Just do it when there are enough people in there, it will be a funny show for all these freaks
Buy some beer for us and call me I'm comming with you.

[johan]

teeching, on Feb 3 2006, 10:33 PM, said:

YOU CAN THINK IN A DIFFERENT WAY.. TELL THAT...TRY TO EXPLAIN THAT..BUT YOU CANNOT INSULT THE ROOTS..THE DOGMAS...THE MASS BELIEFS... "

Dear Teeching,

I understand that you feel that the cartoons are really insulting and wrong. I understand, I really do. So I hear you. (YOU DONT HAVE TO USE CAPS LOCK FOR THAT)

But you should realise that there are a lot of different opinions about the cartoons.

I find the cartoons funny , and still I respect Muslims and do not think bad about all Muslims.( I am not a fan of religion in general, but that’s a different discussion)

So I say the cartoons are funny.

You say, the cartoons are insulting.

So ... what should happen then...

Is your opinion more important than mine?

Is an opinion that has a religious base, more important than an opinion or believe that have a democratic base or non religious origin? .

I think not... I think that all believes are important.. Muslims believes, Christian believes and believes and options of not religious people. They are all important, and one believe is not more important than the other believe.

So saying that.

You should know in western culture it is normal to mock religions. To mock the pope, to mock Jesus, to mock politicians. To mock everybody really. So if we want to mock Muslims.  Its not .. we versus Muslims.. no.. its our culture to mock and make cartoons about things that are happening all over the world.

Accept it.. accept the difference of thinking.. Then I am sure.. al people will accept you and your Muslims brothers.  Don’t feel insecure.. people will accept you.. but only if you accept people who think different than you. It’s a two way street.

[Hagar]

There is an interesting link on this subject http://info2us.dk/muhammed which shows the history of depicting the prophet, and many other links.. those who were offended by the original cartoons (included here) should not look.

The part that has been lost is the original reason for the cartoons:

A Danish author was writing a book about Mohammed, and wanted someone to illustrate it, but no-one was willing to take the job because of the fear of a rushdie-type fatwa. Therefore the newspaper invited a number of artists to submit their renditions, and the rest is history.
One of the cartoons shows a cartoonist drawing Mohammed whilst looking nervously over his shoulder

Mashugly suggested that the divide between european & muslim culture in european countries is not so great anymore, the truth is it varies enormously between countries. From my time in London I remember having numerous muslim friends & thinking nothing of it. in other parts of europe I never meet a muslim socially at all.

[johan]

Mocking the pope;



Mocking gay's



Mocking Muslims:

edit: cencored, because of ???

What? You tell me.

[teeching]

QUO VADIS ,DOMINE ????

no more replies to this topic from me ..i just tried..

I DO ALSO NOT ACCEPT TOUCHING POPE WITH DIRTY HANDS...GAYS R OUT OF THIS TOPIC.how dare we consider religions with choices..( I used caps lock to make it easier to receive the message .but noway )

[firebush05]

johan, on Feb 3 2006, 04:53 PM, said:

Dear Teeching,

I understand that you feel that the cartoons are really insulting and wrong. I understand, I really do. So I hear you. (YOU DONT HAVE TO USE CAPS LOCK FOR THAT)

But you should realise that there are a lot of different opinions about the cartoons.

I find the cartoons funny , and still I respect Muslims and do not think bad about all Muslims.( I am not a fan of religion in general, but that’s a different discussion)

So I say the cartoons are funny.

You say, the cartoons are insulting.

So ... what should happen then...

Is your opinion more important than mine?

Is an opinion that has a religious base, more important than an opinion or believe that have a democratic base or non religious origin? .

I think not... I think that all believes are important.. Muslims believes, Christian believes and believes and options of not religious people. They are all important, and one believe is not more important than the other believe.

So saying that.

You should know in western culture it is normal to mock religions. To mock the pope, to mock Jesus, to mock politicians. To mock everybody really. So if we want to mock Muslims.  Its not .. we versus Muslims.. no.. its our culture to mock and make cartoons about things that are happening all over the world.

Accept it.. accept the difference of thinking.. Then I am sure.. al people will accept you and your Muslims brothers.  Don’t feel insecure.. people will accept you.. but only if you accept people who think different than you. It’s a two way street.

Here's the thing... Teeching can't just 'accept' it.  Viewing the cartoons are a violation of his faith.  What your asking him to do is violate his own beliefs.  

Western culture allows Teeching to believe his beliefs, and those that mock his beliefs are being intolerant.  Its not 'American' to disrepect peoples religious beliefs.  You've got it backwards.

[johan]

teeching, on Feb 3 2006, 11:13 PM, said:

QUO VADIS ,DOMINE ????

no more replies to this topic from me ..i just tried

You tried, really.. you tried to understand and respect people who think different than yourselves.

Well that's great.

So there is hope after all.

viva la difference, viva freedom of speech, viva all people in the world