Why steal from Apple?

[psikadelik]

From dictionary.com itself

 

Stealing: To take (the property of another) without right or permission.

Copyright Infringement: a violation of the rights secured by a copyright.

 

All in all, I believe that unless there is a dignified lawyer on these forums to tell us otherwise, then we are NOT stealing...I've used OS X all the way back to 10.1 (which is still my favorite version ) Well, that was irrelevant but anyway, this is an operating system that is still basically a full-grown fetus, the body parts are all there and functioning but it still is not out yet.

 

Humans are greedy; its our nature to just grab things. If there was a guy handing out free copies of Microsoft Windows XP Professional on the street, even if you despised it, you would take it anyway just because you can, right? This topic is a moral issue that differs from person to person. If you believe that this is stealing, then you can reformat your hard drive right now and remove all traces of OSx86 from anything around you. Otherwise, leave the growing population of OSx86 supporters to testing, tinkering, and improving

 

Software is different from traditional property like a toaster or automobile. Intellectual property (Software) is still legally considered property and can be "stolen" so it can fit within your definition of theft from dictionary.com. Unlike real property theft crimes which are state law violations, intellectual property violations and copyright infringement of software is a federal law violation. Although you wouldn't be stealing in the traditional sense (walk into a store and shoplift an ipod), knowingly using a hacked copy of OS X 10.4.3 is illegally using a software product still in development without a license and consent of the copyright holder. This act would be violating Apple's copyrights and be a violation of both the DMCA and the US copyright act. This is not a moral issue, this is a question of federal law. Using your street example of Windows XP distribution, the person distributing the copy could go to jail for those actions. Would all people take the software if someone was offering it on the street? Not necessarily. What if you used a MAC, already had a copy of windows XP, or didn't like Windows XP. The reason why copyright violation is illegal is because the action is greedy just like you admit to. So is it a moral question then when the law answers the question of morality by concluding its illegal? Hardly.

 

*Note, i'm for the use of OS X 86 because I think current copyright laws are unfair. I'm just clarifying the question*

[kignsman6]

Yup, what in god's name gave the idea we sucking blood(in form of $Ka-Ching$) from apple. Like the plentiful of people here say just testing mate. of course not everyone's on that page if u're talking about street's of HK and etc...

 

i kinda like apple, but the nature of me business requires the use of windows, well the available software on windows really, can't wait for the MacIntel box though when they come out, i'm running out to get me one.

 

see i eventually gonna add more $Ka-Ching$ to the Apple coffers..

 

PS.. Shania Twain ROCKS

[Dracula]

I want to buy an iBook. Since Apple is going over to intel, I'm forced to wait to see whether Apple's Tiger O/S will be available for cheaper laptops. If it is then I will happily buy a cheapo Fujitsu unless Apple comes out with an inexpensive iBook. I don't much care for Windows and its many problems.

[witzer]

i guess it's not stealing from apple. a lot of people (like myself) don't have the privilege of using MacOS because of its "buy mac to try mac" policy. so accessibility was small unless you have the cash. can't really spend $2000 "just like that" on a mac.

 

some people (like myself) wanted a change in the working environment. and since the news of apple going intel surfaced, it opened up a lot of opportunities for a lot of people (like myself) to go ahead and try out MacOS.

 

for those trying out OSX86, it was a great experience. but believe it or not, what happen in my city is that people are selling the VMware images to the public. so those not having the privilege to get from torrent, can get their hands on osx86 by buying it. for a mere $5 a DVD. for those trying out, it's ok, but selling it, ugh i dunno how robin will react to this.

 

i think apple should be delighted that their OS has been like one of the most talked about OS since the apple to intel news. they are receiving a great response. a lot of people would get an ibook or powerbook right after trying out OSX86 when in the past they really can't feel the need to switch from windows. apple can learn from the responses people give in the forums. it's like a free marketing campaign and free customer relation through forums (osx86project forum and win2osx forum are what i read the most).

 

question is, how will the price policy be after apple and intel combined forces. still expensive? anyway, 2005 is coming to an end, and 2006 is a new horizon for apple and its would be followers. i would certainly be getting an ibook if the price proves to be competitive to windows/linux based notebooks.

[Tearabite]

it was a great way for me to try a 'mac' without blowing the cash to buy one..

NOW that i've tried it, i like it, and would have no problem PAYING for the final x86 version, or even buying a whole new Mac when my PC finally dies..

 

so, apple has earned 1 new customer..

 

.

[numberonekiwi]

I am not to sure about concret facts here but from my understanding xerox build a windows type enviroment some time before apple brought out their mac os which was based on the xerox os, then microsoft came out with windows 2.x

 

My point here is who "owns" a windows os enviroment

 

and by us using this hacked / modified version then not the same as apple did to xerox and what microsoft did to apple??

 

proberly not !

 

-when a copyright exists what exactly does it entail ...i.e 0's and 1's on a hard drive if any of those numbers were changed to make a significant change in the way software runs would that then not in-validate the copy right??

[witzer]

OOT regarding the post by numberonekiwi

do you guys notice that there's a xerox folder in windows "program files" group of folders. anyone have any idea what's it for? it's empty and can't be erased.

[xtraa]

OOT regarding the post by numberonekiwi

do you guys notice that there's a xerox folder in windows "program files" group of folders. anyone have any idea what's it for? it's empty and can't be erased.

 

I found this on a website named "goggle or something like this.

Funny thing is: You can type words into, and it finds it on the internet! Wow!

 

http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/.../16/258220.aspx

 

scnr

[mindaugas]

crappy switch music ... "I used to run Windows on my PC, it was ok, sometimes it would lock up and internet explorer kept giving my adware every time I went to porn sites. Now that my PC uses OS ten, I never get adware and since my wife doesn't know how to use it, she can't find my porn. I'm a porn addict and I switched to Apple."

[Kerpal]

Believe it or not, I actually went to Fry's and bought a copy of Tiger when I installed this on my laptop. I still had to use the accepted method here, but I paid for a copy just to balance karma.

 

A lot of us will do that, even if we can't get a commercially available Tiger DVD - we'll just go out and buy the Mac disc instead.

 

Bollocks, I doubt many people will do that.

 

There's no point - by installing a cracked version on your PC you are breaking the law anyway.

[wiebeest]

I found this on a website named "goggle or something like this.

Funny thing is: You can type words into, and it finds it on the internet! Wow!

Lol

Truth of the matter is I had been wondering the function of this folder too.

Crappy WFP-heritage.

[Metrogirl]

Ethics are a strange thing. Everyone knows that stealing is wrong. If a shop/store gave you too much change and you discovered it later, would you go back and return it? If it was a big department store would that be different from your local corner shop? If you knew the owner? If you got home and found it, or if you noticed right outside the shop? Suddenly there are several degrees of honesty.

 

Software theft and piracy have always been a subject which has caused furious debate. Here's a common justification:- A kid with a PC would never be able to afford Adobe Photoshop so he gets a pirated copy which he enjoys for his own use. Who is losing out? Adobe are not really losing out because that kid would never buy the product himself at that point in time. In fact they might gain, because later he might buy the whole thing or persuade his employer to do it.

 

The same rationalisation is being used for pirated OSx86. No-one here would have bought OSx86 because you can't buy it yet (regardless of whether you would buy it if you could). Plenty of people have fallen in love with the interface and features and will buy it when it is available. So you could say that Apple are not really losing out at this point and may even benefit.

 

Where the rationalisation falls over is when people who should buy it, don't. Companies running pirated Photoshop are just greedy and wrong. However with OSx86 we have an extra dimension - the legitimate version will apparently never run on a vanilla PC.

 

Which leads to the logical next step. Right now it's technically stealing but in a manner which is probably not harming Apple enormously. When OSx86 is commercially available you have two options (apart from buying an Intel Apple). Buy a real copy and patch it to run on your vanilla PC - you might justify that to yourself because you have paid real money for the software. Or download it from one of the dubious sources out there. That would be stealing, period.

 

It's up to you how your conscience works. The law will view it as theft, appropriation or violation of copyright however you look at it.

 

Just my two penn'orth / two cents' worth.

[xtraa]

Ethics are a strange thing. Everyone knows that stealing is wrong. If a shop/store gave you too much change and you discovered it later, would you go back and return it? If it was a big department store would that be different from your local corner shop? If you knew the owner? If you got home and found it, or if you noticed right outside the shop? Suddenly there are several degrees of honesty.

 

I would simply say, stealing is "ok", if it doesn't really hurt the company, where I steal from. I have a problem with compassion and all those Zillion Dollar Tom Cruises, when i watch a pirated movie. As long as they don't pay the creative workers like they should do, I don't give a sh*t But I would never steal or crack software that 1) I use really often 2) commercially work with 3) comes from a real small company.

 

Software theft and piracy have always been a subject which has caused furious debate. Here's a common justification:- A kid with a PC would never be able to afford Adobe Photoshop so he gets a pirated copy which he enjoys for his own use. Who is losing out? Adobe are not really losing out because that kid would never buy the product himself at that point in time. In fact they might gain, because later he might buy the whole thing or persuade his employer to do it.

 

Yes, and not only that: This kid knows everything about Photoshop. And when it grew up, like thousands of

other Photoshop kids, too, then this is the best way for a company, to ensure to be and to stay the "standard" number one application in the future.

[quixos]

edited do to stalker. believe it or not.

[cyrana]

The 'if it doesnt' feel like stealing, it is not' argument, doesn't fly. Although I sense a bit of humour in that post.

 

In the end, unless you are running OS X on a real Mac, it is technically copyright infringment (or whatever someone wants to call it) or theft, whatever. So for x86, this means that only real devkit users are legal. Really cut and dry. *shrug*

 

People can rationalise it away all they want. Although I'm sure some bugs noticed on non-devkit boxes and listed on the Internet have been noticed by Apple. Perhaps that is why their fury hasn't been fully unleashed. heh.

[bjr1028]

God willing Apple gets a hint that their proprietary days ended with the PowerPC because of this.

[pflatline]

Why are people pirating from an already struggling company? It's very not cool. Especially, since it means helping out the Windows world. Picking on the little 3% computer margin is not cool.

 

 

Well,we cant buy it so it really doenst have any market value yet. Not that I would worry about such things or feel I need to make excuses like alot of people do. That being said,I suggest that those of us that really like OSX and use it alot,actually buy the disk when it is released for X86.(this probobally wont happen untill the next upgrade after the initial version,why sell a disk everyone has) First, its not that expensive and second,we would all like to see a actual supported X86 version for white box pcs. My feeling is that if it works well and you buy i to hack it, perhaps Apple may notice that they are selling quite a few more OSX disks than they sell Macs. I agree, they will be hesitant to sell it like that for fear of gutting their Mac sales,but if its happening all ever the place anyway,it might put them in a position where they have a market they can tap. Apple is actually caught in a bad situation. They have no hope of ever being as big as MS becuase their OS only runs on their harware. The days of the proprietary hardware platform are long over. Macs switching from PPC,most of the workstation manufaturers have switched. Even the server manufacturers are chainging over. I understand HP is phasing out precision in favor of Itanium based offerings. Alpha is pretty much only provided for people who HP has a commitment to. IBM still seems commited to Power and Sun has Sparc but I think those may be the only ones left.

 

What concernes me is that Apple themselves told us for years that PowerPC was faster and better than Intel. Mac users of course repeated this over and over. Now suddenly apple is telling those same people "No,wait,now PC hardware is better. Its way faster and everything will run better" If I was a hardcore mac user,I would be a little irriated with apple. I turns out,that guy who said that his 64bit AMD based pc running BSD ran circles around their G5 macs was right? I dont mean to offend anyone,I just know how I would feel if I had bought into the apple marketing over the years.

 

(Just for the record,my opinion is,old macs had a crummy os,on decent performing,and high quality hardware,with a great GUI,newer pre OSX macs had great hardware (ive allways like power and power PC) with a crummy OS and a great GUI. The OSX macs had ok hardware,with a great OS,but sadly,IBM couldnt commit to the same kind of resources that Intel and AMD do to keep their chips competative because of the limited market for them)

[pflatline]

Apple is a hardware company with 3% market share. I will boycott them forever the same way I boycott other big computer makers such as Dell. I always make my computers myself (I just ordered a new Asus barebone laptop and a separeted hard drive, wifi, RAM, DVD, CPU so it can be done with laptops too)

 

 

 

You may say M$ is evil but immagine how it would be if Apple has the monopoly. We would have to buy all our computers AND OS from one unique company. Even to run Linux we would have to buy OS X. That would suck a lot.

 

I have nothing against OS X. I think it has it's advantages (windows and linux also have theirs and that's why I will triple-boot on my new laptop) but I am 100% against a company that locks you to specific hardware.

 

 

 

That's why I think pirating Apple's software isn't worst, isn't better than pirating other softwares. If you don't feel guilty for pirating Windows, Photoshop, music and movies you should not feel guilty of pirating OS X and final cut pro.

 

 

 

I must also add that making OS X run on normal PCs will not make Apple loose 1 cent. People will try OS X on their PC and they will be able to run no apps and get no software updates, not counting limited hardware support. You can see it as a demo. When Apple will release the real OSX86 10.5 the version we are using now will be oudated and some of us will buy macs.

 

 

Honsetly,I cant see any advantages of Linux over osx. Most unixes are pretty much the same,except Open BSD is more secure than most. The only reason I can see to run linux if you had a computer that ran OSX (lets just say its a real x86 mac for the sake of argument) is if there is some special software that requres it. If you have a unix with a great interface,thats stable,and that you can go down to the store and buy shrinkwrapped software for,why swap back and forth to a OS that has almost identical functionality,can compile and run most of the same programs ,has a clunky under developed interface (Yes,it is under developed. Ive had linus users start flaming when I suggest that the UI should be a priority. "If your so stupid that you dont know how to use a text editor to change a setting a config file you shouldnt be allowed to have a computer" Of course,I had to use it for a particle detector simulator that I needed to run. If I had OSx around I would have compiled it and ran it on that. Thats life,sometimes you just need to run something,so you run whatever you need to do it. If your one of the people that using linux becuase you dont want to pay MS,there are far better alternatives. Open BSD for security,OSX for ease of use. Once you decide that you can live without access to all the windows software, there are alot alternatives available. ( I cant live without it,so Im Bills B#$@&) Windows ranks good on ease of use,poor on reliability. Linux good on reliability,poor in ease of use. Open BSD great on reliability and security, poor on easy of use. (I find it a little easier than Linux,but some people disagree,its really a matter of opninion) OSX is great on ease of use and good on reliability. Now if we could just figure out how to bolt the apple GUI onto Open BSD we would have the worlds greatest OS. I guess OSX is close enough.

[pflatline]

I would simply say, stealing is "ok", if it doesn't really hurt the company, where I steal from. I have a problem with compassion and all those Zillion Dollar Tom Cruises, when i watch a pirated movie. As long as they don't pay the creative workers like they should do, I don't give a sh*t But I would never steal or crack software that 1) I use really often 2) commercially work with 3) comes from a real small company.

 

 

 

Yes, and not only that: This kid knows everything about Photoshop. And when it grew up, like thousands of

other Photoshop kids, too, then this is the best way for a company, to ensure to be and to stay the "standard" number one application in the future.

 

I guess Im just evil. I dont really care. Yes,It is wrong. I respect the companies right to try to stop me and I dont whine and moan when they beat me and make a copy protection that I cant break or have trouble with. (then again,there has never been a copy protection that couldnt be broken,so at most its allways a temporary inconveinence) Of course Apple has a right to decide how you can use their software. To suggest that somehow its moraly ok becuase Apple might profit doenst make it ok. Apple would disagree with you. Apple would tell you that if you people can run OSX on a non mac,then why would anyoen ever buy a real one. They might be right,they might be wrong,but its their decision to make,not yours. Really,people make the excuses because they want the software. Im not making excuses,but yea,I want the software. What I would really like to see is apple sell it. Thats why I recomend that people actually buy it when your finally able to go purchase an OSx 86 disk. Lets say 3% of PC users decided to run hacked OSX. Thats a signifigant sales for apple. If apple suddenly realized that they were selling twice as many copies of OSX than they they had sold macs that could use it,they might just get the hint. Thats what I want. Its a purely selfish reason that I hack OSX,becuase I want it. Thats why I want to change apples mind about selling it,becuase I want it. Thats why If I can contribue in some small way to making that happen,like I am now,I will do it. I therefore recomend purchasing OSX when if becomes available and hacing it. If enough people do it,apple will pay attention. Of course they might also take draconian measures to stop us from running it,shooting themselves in the foot. IIt wouldnt be the first time they have shot themselves there.

[xtraa]

@pflatline:

 

90% Ack But as I said, I for myself exclude small companies, because they live so

fast and die so young. Would be bad karma for me

 

but yes, I will support Apple, too. I already planned to buy a cinema display next

year, because you cannot trust the other LCD fakers out there, and it is looking so

damn good. this cristmas, I'll get my mac keyboard I don't care what is under my

desk, as long as it can run XP as an option.

 

there is only ONE App, that prevent my complete switch. I need XP for one §$%&/

app (cubase) because, all my arrangements are there now, with much plugins. And

as long as there is no crc for logic or Cubase available, I can forget it.

 

Everything else I do in OSX now. Last time I saw my XP was about last week,

wednesday or so...

 

I simply love it.

[pflatline]

If it's for a good cause, is stealing justified? Where's the moral police when you need them

 

If I had to guess,I would Iran and Saudi Arabia

[pflatline]

Exactly.

 

This is because

 

1. unlike Safari, the IE is not only a browser, it is fully integrated in the system. For example, you can type "http://blabla.com" in every Explorer bar, and it will switch to IE. There is no way to uninstall it. Even if you do, the functions will still be there.

 

2.Don't forget that Microsoft ran a big war against Netscape, when Microsoft tried to establish their IE. still more than 90% of all OS is Windows. Thats why it makes a huge difference, if you steal technology and ideas from others, just to implement the code in your own stuff, while holding a monopol.

 

jm2c

 

 

I take it your not a PC user? You can do that with windows too. Internet explorer IS a part of the OS. Yes,they did this on purpose. The reason they did this is so that their product would be intimatly connected to their system,while netscapes would not be. This way,its impossible to remove. Remember during the whole trial. The best the "expert" could do is delete the icon off the desktop and say "Look its gone!!"

 

In fact,its not illegal for MS to bundle IE. Its illegal for them to force you to buy it. This isnt becuase its illegal in general to bundle products,but because microsoft has a monopoly. It IS illegal to use your monopoly position to tie products together. Imagine if Apple by some miracle manages to push MS out of the market. Lets say MS cant fix its security flaws and vista is even worse than XP. People get so sick of it that experts start recomending MacOS. Run what you need in something like Win4Lin,and use the rest nativly. Eventualy developers start switching,and Windows goes the way of Netware. Suddenly,Apple has the monopoly. Enter the class action lawsuits. Apple illegally ties OSX to its hardare. Apple illegally ties its browser to its OS. Apple illegally ties Quicktime to its OS. Suddenly Apple will find itself in Microsofts shoes. Its not illegal untill you have a monopoly. Thats why MS fought like a starving pitbull to prevent them from being branded a monopoly. Thats what the Win95 consent decree was about. Give in a little and prevent it from going to court and getting that monopoly lable. Now that they are an official monopoly,alot of tactics that are legitimate for normal busineses are off limits to them.

 

@pflatline:

 

90% Ack But as I said, I for myself exclude small companies, because they live so

fast and die so young. Would be bad karma for me

 

but yes, I will support Apple, too. I already planned to buy a cinema display next

year, because you cannot trust the other LCD fakers out there, and it is looking so

damn good. this cristmas, I'll get my mac keyboard I don't care what is under my

desk, as long as it can run XP as an option.

 

there is only ONE App, that prevent my complete switch. I need XP for one §$%&/

app (cubase) because, all my arrangements are there now, with much plugins. And

as long as there is no crc for logic or Cubase available, I can forget it.

 

Everything else I do in OSX now. Last time I saw my XP was about last week,

wednesday or so...

 

I simply love it.

 

 

Take a look at a program called Win4Lin. It allows you to install a version of windows (95,98 or ME) under Linux. Its alot like Suns Wabi was. Now that OSX runs on PC hardware,there is no reason that they,or someone else cannont and will not make such a thing for mac. Its alot faster than total emulation and may do what you need.

[pflatline]

Exactly.

 

This is because

 

1. unlike Safari, the IE is not only a browser, it is fully integrated in the system. For example, you can type "http://blabla.com" in every Explorer bar, and it will switch to IE. There is no way to uninstall it. Even if you do, the functions will still be there.

 

2.Don't forget that Microsoft ran a big war against Netscape, when Microsoft tried to establish their IE. still more than 90% of all OS is Windows. Thats why it makes a huge difference, if you steal technology and ideas from others, just to implement the code in your own stuff, while holding a monopol.

 

jm2c

 

It had nothing to do with stealing ideas from netscape. Actually,netscape wasnt a very good idea to begin with. Before the browser wars, browsers were free. There was for the most part Mosaic. Netscape used the mosaic code for Navigator. The first version of Navigator was not alot different than Mosaic. Netscapes buisiness model worked like this. You have a choice,you can download the software for free,or you can buy a copy in a box. For the most part,no one bought it,they just downloaded it. Why WOULD you buy it. How much tech support do you need on a browser. Of course they also sold internet server software,so they had something to acutally make some money on. They were not doing to bad at the whole thing. Unfortunatly they got really stupid. Their business plan was to transform their browser into a platform independent OS. Java apps would run in their browser. They publicly proclaimed at every oppertunity that their product would render Windows obsolete. What do you think happened when they started poking the 1000 pound gorilla with a sharp stick?

It got angry of course. MS decided they had ignored the internet for long enough. They started of course with the mosaic code. (Yes,IE is based on mosaic too) They decided to give it away. (I dont really see a problem with that,since before netscape,all browsers were free. Most other operating systems at the time also came with free browsers. MS was actually behind the times by not giving us one) The real problem was WHY they did it and HOW they did it. They specifically took steps to make sure that the browser HAD to stay there. Thats not so bad,because it really does add funtionality to the OS. I would rather NOT have it and have security instead,but thats microsofts call to make,not mine. Its their OS. What was illegal was the reason they were doing it,and the fact that they took steps to make sure that netscape could not come bundled. They went to computer makers and told them that if they sold netscape on their systems they would lose their special pricing deals on windows. They would no longer be competative with other vendors. That effectivly stopped netscape from having their software bundled with new PCs. This is huge. Just ask AOL how valuble that was. They made a fortune off having an AOL icon come with every copy of windows. AOL is probobally the best evidence of how valuble of a marketing tool that desktop realestate is.

 

In short,the whole netscape-MSIE arguement was 1)MS is a monopoly and 2) That monopoly is being used to do things that,while legal for every company that is not a monopoly, is NOT legal for MS.

 

The courts eventually did agree that MS was a monopoly and now they are open to lawsuits for all sorts of infractions. Thats why Gates would have given his grandmothers left leg to be avoid that brand.

[rwahh]

lol @ him calling apple a struggling company....

 

doesn't he realize iTunes accounts for 80% of all legally downloaded music, not to mention apple has the mp3 player market cornered, owning something like 2/3rds of the entire market?!

 

struggling, my ass

Edited December 12, 2005 by rwahh

[iMaurice]

As far as im concerned, buy a copy of mac os x and download mac os x86...