The Mitt Romney speech on Religion in America

[killbot1000]

Mitt Romney recently addressed the American people in a speech related to faith in America and his own Mormon faith (the speech is attached to this post). Many reviewers of the speech are claiming that it is a "slam dunk" as far as speeches go, this troubled me somewhat because I found many misleading passages in the speech, and I wanted to know what all of you thought.

 

Just to clear up some of the misleading material in this speech:

 

1."Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom."

 

For one, this quote is both circular and incorrect (A needs B therefore B needs A). There was no mention as to WHY freedom requires religion, but it wouldn't matter because the statement is incorrect, I could get up here and talk about how freedom CAN exist without religion (and it indeed can), but I wouldn't reach the religious people of this forum. I proposition this instead, what was catholicism for over a thousand years? (Religion without freedom) if you can find only ONE example in human history of religion existing without freedom, then you are forced to render this statement incorrect.

 

2. In Reference to the part of the speech that talked about the founding fathers, and how they all acknowledged "THE Creator" I would like to point out that the vast majority of the founding fathers were NOT Christian. They were Diest "Deists typically reject supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and tend to assert that God does not interfere with human life and the laws of the universe. What organized religions see as divine revelation and holy books, most Deists see as interpretations made by other humans, rather than as authoritative sources." Mitt Romney then said immediately following this statement that "God gave us freedom". Seems a bit contradictory don't you think?

 

3. Mitt Romney then immediately said "Under God and In God we Trust indeed". This has the misleading presumption that "in god we trust" has always been on our money, and that "under God" has always been part of the flag salute, but I have a news flash for you. "In god we trust" was added to our money just after the civil war, when religious sentiment rose, and the secretary of the treasury at the time decided to give it the green light. This was nearly 100 years after the founding fathers founded this country. Also, "Under God" wasn't added to our flag salute until 1957, when we began our 50 year quest to squash communism before it spread, and since the majority of our country IS Christian, it became easy to demoralize communists by calling them Atheists, as if anybody would ever defend an atheist...and it worked.

 

4. Mitt Romney also said that a president needs the prayers of all of the people of all religions....this is making a presumption that all religions pray, and that they all pray to a singular God "and they all (all religions) have their steeples pointing up toward heaven", this makes the assumption that every religion believes in one god, and that they all acknowledge heaven, wow, all of these different religions are starting to look a lot like Christianity....

 

There are about 40 more examples I could cite...but this is a mac forum, just please anybody, do me a favor, and use your brains when voting for a candidate for president, we have to dig a little deeper, and not be ruled by our subjective feelings alone...if a 21 year old (me) could dig up just a few things on this speech, then you KNOW there's got to be more misleading material in this speech. Just...take it with a grain of salt, that's all I ask.

 

What do you all think?

Romney__Speech.pdf

[sticky_bit]

This belongs in a public opinion forum NOT here!

[gwprod12]

This is the public opinion forum.

 

Here, we discuss: Stuff that goes on in Real Life, and what we think about it.

 

Killbot: Mitt Romney basicly said this: It doesn't matter what religion you have, as long as it's monotheistic. Those without religion or with pantheistic or nontheistic religions are unacceptable.

[killbot1000]

This is the public opinion forum.

 

Here, we discuss: Stuff that goes on in Real Life, and what we think about it.

 

Killbot: Mitt Romney basicly said this: It doesn't matter what religion you have, as long as it's monotheistic. Those without religion or with pantheistic or nontheistic religions are unacceptable.

 

Which goes against the vague idea of religious freedom as laid out by the constitution in this country does it not?

 

I don't know...I brought all this stuff up in my class and nobody seemed to care...this guy IS saying that non-monotheistic religions are unacceptable! And nobody seems to be getting an alarm in their head. Also, as an atheist, it is somewhat disheartening to be constantly targeted as a person who would undermine freedom, rights, etc. We, along with many other unpopular viewpoints on human existence, are often used as a scapegoat for our country's problems. (You are either with us [monotheistic religions] or against us [anything else]). You are either the enemy or a friend based purely on your religious convictions....

 

Is this the kind of America anybody wants to live in? Maybe christians...I don't know, it just upsets me, thats all. What also upsets me is that people seem so damn ignorant that all this speech just flies over their head without a second though...it scares me a little.

 

This belongs in a public opinion forum NOT here!

 

By the way, what I said in my first post was not opinion, it was fact, there is a big difference.

[sticky_bit]

So, actually -

 

InsanelyMac is a community for those interested in the very latest news about Apple's Macintosh computers and OS X.

 

The Mission

 

The mission of InsanelyMac is to provide friendly, professional, and articulate news and discussion for the Macintosh platform. We exist to give technology enthusiasts an open community for discussing their interests and learning from others, facilitated by a talented and helpful team of staff members.

 

Now I see why Mitt Romney news belongs here. ;) :offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic It has everything to do with Apple's Macintosh computers and OS X. :censored2:

[gwprod12]

Real Life™

 

The place for politics, sports, philosophy, religion, and all the things that probably matter most.

 

So um... yah.

 

[consolation]

stuck_bit, are you on some mormon network that will censor this site if it blasphemes against the Romney?

[apowerr]

Not to be judgmental or close-minded, but my views on Romney are as follows:

Mitt Romney is a Mormon, therefore I do not care about what he thinks.

[socal swimmer]

Not to be judgmental or close-minded, but my views on Romney are as follows:

Mitt Romney is a Mormon, therefore I do not care about what he thinks.

 

roflmao

 

 

 

 

LOL.

 

 

i know a mormon girl. close-minded, arrogant little prick.

 

Then again, most people that can't handle anything more than being spoon-fed their opinions by their priests are like that.

 

and they are the ones that always think they are so right ....

 

a test should be required before you can vote. Something like, are your opinions scientifically valid and do you know why.

 

because many of these said religious people think things that are flat out wrong.

[aduffbrew]

a test should be required before you can vote. Something like, are your opinions scientifically valid and do you know why.

because many of these said religious people think things that are flat out wrong.

Two questions: Who gets to decide what is right and wrong concerning faith? And when everyone is ineligible to vote, what then?

 

Oh, this hullaballoo about Mitt Romney being a Mormon is retarded. It just goes to show how little most people know of the sect. Do I think some of Mormon theology to be a bit kooky. Well.. of course I do. But I think that of most every faith beyond my own. That doesn't make them subversive and evil. Romney didn't say anything I haven't heard before. Because he's monotheistic doesn't mean he's out to get those who aren't. In fact, Mormons are quite sensitive to the whole freedom of religion debate. Having lived among Mormons here in Salt Lake City for almost 20 years, I find them to be a friendly and generous bunch. It's not been without its struggles though. Utah suffers from the same blurred lines between Church and State that most every other part of the country suffers where one creed lives in such an overwhelming majority over the others. It's not so much a situation of conspiracy as statistics. Romney is no more apt to be in the hip pocket of his prophet as JFK was with the Pope or George W. is with his pastor.

 

What people need to be discussing are his politics. What are his policy proposals, his experience, his leadership abilities, and what can be said of his character? Personally, I don't find him all that terribly compelling but I'm certainly not going to blast him because he's a "weird" Mormon. Freedom of Religion, people! This is America.

[gwprod12]

Well, I for one do not think he's unfit for office because he's a Mormon.

 

He, however, stated rather unequivocally that those who aren't religious at all ARE unfit for office, especially the presidency.

 

That's my issue.

 

Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone.

 

I am willing to concede that maybe he didn't mean it the way it sounded. But it sounded like a condemnation of the non-religious/non-monotheistic.

 

"Deeds is truer than words..."

[Former PC Fanboy]

I don't like Mitt Romney because he comes off sounding like a used car salesman. There is just something about him that feels scripted. Oh, and the fact he flip flop and flips again on issues whenever its politically convenient doesn't help his case either.

 

I personally am a fan of Mike Huckabee. For all his flaws he comes off as the most genuine, and I have been pushing the Fair Tax for about 5 years now among my friends so its good to hear from a candidate who - even tho he may not be able to pass it - can put it on the national agenda or at least raise its awareness.

[sticky_bit]

stuck_bit, are you on some mormon network that will censor this site if it blasphemes against the Romney?

 

Not at all! I am not a Romney supporter at all nor am I mormon. I just don't feel like being bothered with peoples political/religious opinion within a forum that is focused on "The evolution of OSX 86". I come here to read and learn about Apple topics NOT political/religious opinion. The internet is chock full of places to express your political/religious opinion and this is not one of them (in my opinion). Pretty simple. Why should I be bothered with fact or opinion on an unrelated topic in a forum with a specific focus that is NOT politics or religion? If I wanted to read about Mr. Romney, his speech, or if I cared to read others opinion of either I'd seek a forum with that focus. When I come to Insanely Mac I expect to read about Apple's OSX 86!

[gwprod12]

When you go in the Real Life forum (for politics, religion, etc), you might expect to find Politics. Since there is unlikely to be anything close to what you're looking for in this forum, maybe you should stick to the rest of Insanelymac?

 

"You should not complain about what you need not subject yourself to..."

[killbot1000]

For the record, I don't have an inherent problem with Mormons, I have a problem with political candidate feeding off the ignorance of the people and telling blatant lies to them in order to get a vote. I know a lot of them do this but still, gets under my skin every time.

[apowerr]

I personally am a fan of Mike Huckabee. For all his flaws he comes off as the most genuine, and I have been pushing the Fair Tax for about 5 years now among my friends so its good to hear from a candidate who - even tho he may not be able to pass it - can put it on the national agenda or at least raise its awareness.

I've watched Huckabee in debates, and I agree that he is very genuine. Still, I prefer Ron Paul over him . I really wish we had a three (major) party system like the U.K. because I really don't like the Republican and Democratic parties as a whole.

[Paranoid Marvin]

I've watched Huckabee in debates, and I agree that he is very genuine. Still, I prefer Ron Paul over him . I really wish we had a three (major) party system like the U.K. because I really don't like the Republican and Democratic parties as a whole.

 

3? More like 4 in England and 5 in Scotland

[Azurael]

How did you get deluded into believing the UK is a three party system? It is as far as votes go, but as far as representation goes, no thanks to the crummy system that is FPTP, it's firmly two-party. The Lib Dem presence in the commons is pretty much token.

[Numberzz]

As far as religion goes: don't listen to anyone. Ever.

 

Who is religious.

[aduffbrew]

As far as religion goes: don't listen to anyone. Ever.

 

Who is religious.

If by "anyone" you mean those totalitarians who are committed to condemning, or converting or killing everyone who does not share their interpretation of their religious tradition, I would whole heartedly agree. Personally I have hope for a truly pluralistic society. There is a lot we can learn about ourselves by experiencing the faith of others... even if that's just faith in science or ourselves.

 

If you're a person of faith that's interested in that sort of thing but turned off by the whole "I'm right, you're wrong" debate, check this out:

 

http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/index.shtml

 

08/16/07 Religious Passion, Pluralism, and the Young kind of lays it all out. Again, these types of philosophical debates won't appeal to everyone... some of us are just too busy with real life to concern ourselves with such things but hey, I thought I would throw it out there. I've really enjoyed these podcasts.

[Paranoid Marvin]

How did you get deluded into believing the UK is a three party system? It is as far as votes go, but as far as representation goes, no thanks to the crummy system that is FPTP, it's firmly two-party. The Lib Dem presence in the commons is pretty much token.

 

Yes, it's a small presence, but it's there.

In Scotland, for example, even the greens have power, as they have allied with the SNP (Scottish Nazi Party)

[Azurael]

Yes, it's a small presence, but it's there.

In Scotland, for example, even the greens have power, as they have allied with the SNP (Scottish Nazi Party)

 

In the UK, we'd have a Conservative government if it weren't for Scotland and Wales, who represent only a small proportion of the UK's population. Not that that would be any better, but it would be different

 

I think our electoral system could be a lot better. Even if we don't go for PR, we can keep a 1 MP per constituency, elected by those constituents system and have a much fairer representation through STV or AV. That way, people who want to vote for non-major parties' votes wouldn't necesserily be wasted, either.

[borisbadenov]

Here is what I find very interesting. The media is crucifying Romney because over his Mormon religion, however, the man who is in charge of the US Senate, Harry Reid, is also a Mormon yet this is somehow never mentioned. Should we all not also raise the same questions with him?

[cavillor]

Here is what I find very interesting. The media is crucifying Romney because over his Mormon religion, however, the man who is in charge of the US Senate, Harry Reid, is also a Mormon yet this is somehow never mentioned. Should we all not also raise the same questions with him?

 

The difference -- as you probably already know, though you raise the question for the sake of being arch -- is that Reid is a Dem, and that "values voters" (read: {censored}-hating zealots) are mostly Repbulican, and the Repubs want to make sure Romney won't be dclaring war on Christmas

[gwprod12]

It stands to reason that... If you stand on the rooftops and proclaim you are a godly man who is highly religious and will bring your faith to your job... people might want to know what your faith means, not simply to you, but for them.

 

How is the media crucifying Romney about his religion? I must have missed that part.