ENGLISH mother....., Do you speak it?

[OryHara]

If you are here from another country, Why do you expect us to learn your language instead of you speaking ours? I for one will NOT learn your language for YOU. If you come to my country, you will learn my language. No ifs, ands, or buts.

 

If I went to Germany, I would NOT expect the entire country of Germany to learn English for me. Why do you think that everyone should learn Spanish for you? If you can't speak the language, go back to where you came from!

[cringemaster]

But still, its good to learn another language.

[erbic]

I'm a native English speaker, but I'm learning Spanish in school. Why, you ask?

 

1. AP credit

2. There's little I can do about the illegal alien problem (yes, it is a PROBLEM!!!), so I might as well learn how to hold a conversation with some of them.

 

And I'm about to be flamed for #2, I'm sure. Do your worst. :mellow:

[OryHara]

And I'm about to be flamed for #2, I'm sure. Do your worst. :mellow:

 

Why not just ask them to speak English?

Yes, you are right, it IS a problem. If I have to pay taxes, why don't they?

[erbic]

Why not just ask them to speak English?

Yes, you are right, it IS a problem. If I have to pay taxes, why don't they?

 

How about when an illegal alien shows up, has a baby, and that baby is automatically a US citizen? He/she'll probably never speak English in his/her life, and will rely on the completely biased welfare system and pay no taxes just like his illegal parent(s). People like that are not contributing to the American society.

 

The borders need to be sealed. Armed National Guard troops and a big wall are needed at the border with Mexico.

 

I think we see on the same level here.

[gwprod12]

I dont know what I think about this topic... but I do think the US would have profited more by conquering Mexico than Iraq.

 

I like the illegals I've met, and I dont hold anything against them. But in an abstract sense, I think the movement as a whole is bad for this country.

 

And someone is an illegal alien if they crossed the border illegally. It's a crime. An "undocumented worker" is an illegal worker, as it is a crime to work in this country without documentation. Maybe it shouldnt be, but it is.

[killbot1000]

How about when an illegal alien shows up, has a baby, and that baby is automatically a US citizen? He/she'll probably never speak English in his/her life, and will rely on the completely biased welfare system and pay no taxes just like his illegal parent(s). People like that are not contributing to the American society.

 

The borders need to be sealed. Armed National Guard troops and a big wall are needed at the border with Mexico.

 

I think we see on the same level here.

 

 

Sorry but I couldn't disagree with you more.

 

The problem is that we facilitate the Spanish inside American borders. If we only speak English and don't cater to them, they will eventually NEED to know English to survive here.

 

It is IMPOSSIBLE to seal the borders, there is a way around, and in the process we will look even more negative in the eyes of the world, which is not something we need right now.

 

Ive said this before and I will say it again, the only way to get mexicans to stop flooding over the border is to HELP MEXICO become a better place to live. Do you think Mexicans in general love to leave their culture and go to a place that is hostile toward their values and norms? I think not, they are only doing what ANY OF YOU would do in their position, they are looking out for their families and trying to give them a better life, don't stop being a human being because of national borders, what a ridiculous reason.

 

If we found a way to educate the general populace of Mexico, their corruption problems would begin to disappear as the general populace would be made aware of alternative courses of action. What I'm wondering is why we haven't done more to help our Mexican brothers and sisters to the South? Maybe we're afraid of competition? I don't know.

 

This view is coming from a white upper-middle class white guy who hates the way the Spanish language sounds, and hates it when people live here that cant even speak English, my position is based on what works, which is HELPING Mexico, not treating them as subhuman animals.

 

But to ACTUALLY talk about the argument (in America one speaks English, I will not cater to you otherwise, unless you are a traveler on vacation or something, in which case you should be TRYING, but if you speak Japanese, I can help hehe. In Mexico, I would TRY to speak Spanish, I mostly just get upset when people don't try, that's what really gets to me)

[macgirl]

Plese Define "HERE" because this is a forum on WWW, not exactly a physical place.

 

Right now I am in Mexico, in my home, writing this...

 

I know, the hosting is in the U.S. but what happens if it changes country.

 

Nevertheless, asnwering your question, my Engrish is pretty well, and I don't expect that you speak/write in spanish.

 

@ErBiC: if you don't like it don't use WWW or internet anymore, WWW stands for World Wide Web.

 

BTW english is not the predominant language in the planet, spanish is not an official laguage of the Mexican United States (the real name) there is no official language declared.

[gwprod12]

I usually preface what I say with "The United States". I guess you just have to know where everyone else is to know what here means. Besides, the topic is about non-english speakers in the US.

 

This is the problem, as I understand it. When I call Mexico, I expect someone is going to speak spanish, and I would like to find someone who speaks english, as i dont speak spanish. But when I call someone in the United States, it's expected that they speak english. Should everyone know english everywhere? of course not. But it's expected that people speak english when conducting business in the united states. It's annoying when people don't. And frankly... arent there enough english speaking people in the US to staff all service positions with them?

[macgirl]

Well, that was not clear, and that is why I said "Define"

[killbot1000]

Plese Define "HERE" because this is a forum on WWW, not exactly a physical place.

 

Right now I am in Mexico, in my home, writing this...

 

I know, the hosting is in the U.S. but what happens if it changes country.

 

Nevertheless, asnwering your question, my Engrish is pretty well, and I don't expect that you speak/write in spanish.

 

@ErBiC: if you don't like it don't use WWW or internet anymore, WWW stands for World Wide Web.

 

BTW english is not the predominant language in the planet, spanish is not an official laguage of the Mexican United States (the real name) there is no official language declared.

 

I agree with you about the WWW thing, but...to be quite frank we weren't talking about that, we were talking about actually living inside countries which has little to do with the internet. When I said HERE I meant the US, I figured it could be grabbed in context when talking about Mexicans.

 

When I went to Mexico, I made every EFFORT to speak the language of the land, which was Spanish, by effort, I mean at the very least, and honest try, that is NOT too much to ask, if a Spanish speaking person came here, thats all I ask, an honest effort, to extend to me the same courtesy I would extend to them.

 

English is not the official language of this forum...but from what I understand the vast majority of people on it are speaking English, so to suddenly speak in another language would be kind of weird...So in essence, for better or for worse, the language of the land on this forum is...English.

 

In any case, I think this whole issue is a little blown out of proportion, while I have my preferences, I would still try to help a Spanish speaking person out...even if they didn't try to speak English, it would just be the difference between being annoyed or not. Nothing drastic hehe.

[gwprod12]

Well, I for one am not offended when a tourist or someone on business cant speak english. That's their business. I am offended when I go into a store and someone cannot speak english. I dont mean funny accent or disjointed english. I mean literally "no comprende".

 

Think of it this way. If you're born in the united states, you're required to go to school, and part of schooling is learning english. So it's required that natural born citizens can speak english. It is also required for someone getting citizenship to speak english. It should be required for someone who gets a work permit to speak english. If someone is working and they cant speak english, they're most likely an illegal alien and should be deported. And their company should be fined to bankruptcy.

 

Maybe a little harsh... but why am I required to obey the law when illegal aliens and the businesses that hire them arent? Does the law mean nothing?

[Lactobacillus P]

If you are here from another country, Why do you expect us to learn your language instead of you speaking ours? I for one will NOT learn your language for YOU. If you come to my country, you will learn my language. No ifs, ands, or buts.

 

If I went to Germany, I would NOT expect the entire country of Germany to learn English for me. Why do you think that everyone should learn Spanish for you? If you can't speak the language, go back to where you came from!

 

From what I understand English is not the only legal language in the US. In fact there are no laws that require US citizens to be able to speak English actually.

 

I am not a native speaker of English, I took my first English lesson at the ripe age of 12! Which is actually quite late in life. I am not from the US, but I lived and worked there for a couple of years (because of an American girlfriend) until I decided to go back to Europe after we broke up. It would surprise you to know that I can actually speak with a couple of American accents that people find hard to distinguish from the real thing. They would always act real surprised when they found out that they were talking to a genuine European.

So if I come the the US I will just be able to use any of my American accents (generally I tend to mimic the accent around me). If I go on one of my trips to the UK I will just use my general purpose English accent which quickly morphs to the accent of the area I am visiting. In Germany I will speak German albeit with a bit of an accent, if I am there a couple of weeks the accent quickly fades. And I will speak French in France, that really is the only way to be accepted over there.

It's awfully nice to be able to speak the language of the country you're visiting. And I actually do speak an awful lot of different languages if I say so myself, I have a nack for it a bit like Hoshi from Enterprise. Languages do have very similar patterns to them that are easily picked up I do tend to want to go in 'native' mode when abroad.

 

The thing is, that some Americans tend to really not be aware that the large majority of the world doesn't speak English and that it is limiting your view on the world only to be able to speak one language. In fact it does help to study another language in order to appreciate and understand your own language and culture. Almost all Americans have roots in the Old world, so perhaps it doesn't hurt to speak at least one foreign tongue. Think how handy it is to circumvent English censorship in news media, being able to read news from other sources than English does put some news in a wonderfully different perspective and one tends to get a better grasp of global politics because of that.

[gwprod12]

Yes, it's good to speak other languages. But it IS absolutely required for someone to be fluent in english to be a citizen. It is either taught in school, which is compulsory, or required for naturalization.

[Lactobacillus P]

But there is not one or two 'languages of the nation' in the US like so many other countries have by law. So while there are a lot of rules in place requiring people to speak and write English it is not in the constitution from what I gathered. When you look into US history one could argue that the US easily could have been a French of Spanish speaking part of the world.

And to live in the US legally is also possible without going through naturalization, so without becoming a citizen but living and working in some sort of permanent guest mode.

 

US Naturalization for immigrants is only a Naturalization to a partial citizenship, allowing a person to enlist in the military and die for the country for example but still a lot of things are still out of reach for the 'new citizen'. This is not necessarily the case in other countries, where people become full citizens with every right that 'natives' have and they can even become president when they choose to. Look at Arnold Schwarzenegger, he can become a governor but becoming a US president will not be possible. I don't know when this was changed but non-US born people could become US presidents in the past as some the US presidents of long times ago were actually born in my country in Europe.

[OryHara]

Sorry but I couldn't disagree with you more.

 

The problem is that we facilitate the Spanish inside American borders. If we only speak English and don't cater to them, they will eventually NEED to know English to survive here.

 

It is IMPOSSIBLE to seal the borders, there is a way around, and in the process we will look even more negative in the eyes of the world, which is not something we need right now.

 

One thing is to start getting down on the companies that hire them. I could walk into Ashley furniture, shout "Immigration, freeze" and watch 1/2 of the people in there scatter like roaches when the light is turned on.

[Urbz]

I think it's distusting that the great US of A can't be smart, frankly. All they know is English, and anything that isn't American there (in general) isn't understood. So many ignorant Americans refuse to understand other values, cultures, and lifestyles. It sickens me. This very debate is an example of that. What the hell is wrong with learning another language? Are you so engulfed in your pride that anything that seeps through your borders that isn't 100% American is percieved as a threat? Yes, illegal immigrants are a problem. But they take Factory jobs that Americans don't want and they admit that America is a land where they can make something of themselves, even if they know that there is rampant racism against them all over the country (and they aren't the only ones discriminated against).

It boggles my mind that when an American shopkeeper has an illegal immigrant enter his store wanting to buy a product, the shopkeeper will shoo them out. They won't try to understand what the person wants to buy because they don't speak the same lanuage? Yup. Sad.

I just don't get it. In Europe, they laugh at such ridiculous "problems".

[killbot1000]

I think it's distusting that the great US of A can't be smart, frankly. All they know is English, and anything that isn't American there (in general) isn't understood. So many ignorant Americans refuse to understand other values, cultures, and lifestyles. It sickens me. This very debate is an example of that. What the hell is wrong with learning another language? Are you so engulfed in your pride that anything that seeps through your borders that isn't 100% American is percieved as a threat? Yes, illegal immigrants are a problem. But they take Factory jobs that Americans don't want and they admit that America is a land where they can make something of themselves, even if they know that there is rampant racism against them all over the country (and they aren't the only ones discriminated against).

It boggles my mind that when an American shopkeeper has an illegal immigrant enter his store wanting to buy a product, the shopkeeper will shoo them out. They won't try to understand what the person wants to buy because they don't speak the same lanuage? Yup. Sad.

I just don't get it. In Europe, they laugh at such ridiculous "problems".

 

Europe is very different from America. And to respond to what you thought was "distusting". I can speak both English and Japanese fluently (albeit not nearly as so). There are a lot of Japanese people in Washington State so it made sense for me to learn that language.

 

Washington State is a long way from Mexico. I will try to help out somebody from another country if they don't understand the language, I want them to have a good time here. The only thing that really disgusts me is when you have a foreign person, lets just say a mother, they walk into a store with their 12 year old. You ask them a question, something basic like "Is this all you're buying today?" and they will look to their child to be their personal translator (the child was obviously born here and speaks perfect english, translating for their mother/father). My problem is not with immigrants or the fact that they don't speak English. My problem is with people who have lived here FOR 12 YEARS, and have NOT learned a word of English in an English speaking country, what the hell is that? It's pure ignorance.

 

The US isn't perfect, but it is a stereotype that all Americans are fat and dumb....

 

I could go into a spew about all of Europe's problems and stereotypes, but I wont, because the fact of the matter is that we're all the same, and I wish we would treat each other as such.

[solaar]

The borders need to be sealed. Armed National Guard troops and a big wall are needed at the border with Mexico.

That's actually a good idea, in light of the fact that you've already got plenty of minorities who hold a US passport who many people would be happy to keep seeing working their arses on 2-3 jobs for a few lousy bucks an hour, isn't it?

[Aurora]

I think you've got it right there, solaar. In my city I would estimate a good 1/3 of the population wasn't born in America.

 

I used to help teach English to a group of Chinese immigrants (yes, Chinese). They wanted to learn English, but their main roadblock was time. They spend so much time working to support themselves that they hardly had time to learn.

 

English should be approved as the official language, but we need to remember the practical aspect of making people learn English. The older a monolingual person is, the harder it is for them to pick up another language, which is why their children learn it for them. There are entire neighborhoods ten minutes' drive from here filled with Hmong and Filipino people who barely speak English but have children who speak it perfectly. Again they usually work two or more minimum wage jobs and have little time for anything else.

 

A good example of how to assimilate a culture would be South Pacific islanders. They've been here longer, and every single one I know speaks English perfectly, as well as their native tongue. They're cool, successful and for all intents and purposes American.

 

People will learn English, but we need to give them the time and opportunity.

[OryHara]

Factory jobs that Americans don't want

 

Ok, now THAT is where you are DEAD wrong. Most people, especially here in the south are forced into these factory jobs because that is the way they have made their living their entire life, and most people will work for $6 an hour, and come home poor and happy. Most people here are poor. The 85 percent of the population here, proles, are working class. What you suggest only favors the other %15 which are the high middle class, and the rich. If you are a prole here in the south, you are considered middle class. If you are on welfare, you are poor.

 

Not to mentioned that damned public education that the north forced on the south when we were PERFECTLY fine with private education. Now look how {censored} ED up it is. Everyone on this board hates public education in its current state. It NEVER has worked right.

 

 

It boggles my mind that when an American shopkeeper has an illegal immigrant enter his store wanting to buy a product, the shopkeeper will shoo them out. They won't try to understand what the person wants to buy because they don't speak the same lanuage? Yup. Sad.

 

If they can't speak english TOO BAD. Because there isn't another place within 100 miles that speaks spanish, and works on computers. So I guess, if they don't know ENGLISH, then they are royally {censored} ed.

 

What pisses me off even worse is when one of them comes in here, and has their 5 year old child speak for them. If THEIR CHILD is here long enough to speak good English, WHY THE HELL CAN'T THEY? Why the hell are my taxes paying for that little {censored} an education? Why can't she fork over a few damn dollars to the state to pay for it? HUH? Why does she get a mother {censored} ing free ride?

 

I just don't get it. In Europe, they laugh at such ridiculous "problems".

 

This ain't Europe. I don't know about you, but I don't want to walk down the street with big brother watching me from a light pole. The government would have a tough time with pulling that {censored} here since %98 of the populous in the south here have an arsenal in their home, and can form a 100 strong well maintained militia within 20 minutes.

[Aurora]

I think it's distusting that the great US of A can't be smart, frankly. All they know is English, and anything that isn't American there (in general) isn't understood. So many ignorant Americans refuse to understand other values, cultures, and lifestyles. It sickens me. This very debate is an example of that. What the hell is wrong with learning another language? Are you so engulfed in your pride that anything that seeps through your borders that isn't 100% American is percieved as a threat? Yes, illegal immigrants are a problem. But they take Factory jobs that Americans don't want and they admit that America is a land where they can make something of themselves, even if they know that there is rampant racism against them all over the country (and they aren't the only ones discriminated against).

It boggles my mind that when an American shopkeeper has an illegal immigrant enter his store wanting to buy a product, the shopkeeper will shoo them out. They won't try to understand what the person wants to buy because they don't speak the same lanuage? Yup. Sad.

I just don't get it. In Europe, they laugh at such ridiculous "problems".

 

I think that's honestly one of the largest generalization fallacies I've ever seen. If you've ever been to America I daresay your sampling was horrifically biased.

 

The greater part of Europe is sacrificing themselves to Allah on the alter of Multi-Culturalism. In a few more decades, Europe will be predominately Muslim with de facto sharia law. Totalitarianism taking over in America? Nothing compared to what Europe will look when we retire.

 

I'm all for multi-culturalism here in America. I'm learning three other languages and picking up a fourth in a few months. I have friends who are Tongan, Filipino, Mexican, and Irish, all who still remember their heritage. But there are still common establishments between us, like a common language and common ideals (life/liberty/happiness).

 

Having a nation have two official languages is a waste of time and energy. Have English as the official language, and let citizens choose if they will learn another if they want.

[lord_muad_dib]

i think the major factor of the grow of the illegal emigrants stream is misinformation.

 

here in italy we have several "streams", mostly coming from the mediterranean sea sorroundings. they come with old damaged boats more similar to swiss cheese. travels usually doesn't take less of a month and they r dangerous and expensive(up to 6000 euros).

 

that said....

why the hell they don't take a fly and then a legal "permit of stay"?!? it would be easier, faster, cheaper and safer!

all happens simply cos they don't know there's a better way to move on! that's absurd!

 

now. about the language and costume integration.....

imo if you come in a country you must accept its laws. language, and more than others... COMMON SENSE and RESPECT. still. in italy there are examples of cities that there were strongly forced to change in mind just because there are strong communities of immigrants: e.g. in padova all shops must have signs with chinese translation; similar things happens in rome and other cities. not to mention that in some pubblic schools some moslem families forced the creation of classes just for moslem people and so on.

 

do you think this things are correct?

[solaar]

Having a nation have two official languages is a waste of time and energy. Have English as the official language, and let citizens choose if they will learn another if they want.

Well, I have to somewhat disagree on that one. I'm a citizen of a country which has 4 (four!) official languages (plus inofficially English to communicate in certain situations). While outsiders may think this is too complicated and a waste of time, the people who are born (or naturalised) into this system have only minor problems with it. Also, most people here speak at least two languages fluently and are able to literally switch within the same phrase. On the other hand, it is very likely that real problems would arise if this was to be changed to a mono-lingual country where the only language is the one of the current majority (German). One must not forget that languages tend to be more or less closely tied to cultural identities, mentality, certain habits and behaviours. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't want to live under the 'sole rule' of a language originating from a cultural context and mentality which is far from mine (and from many other linguistic minorities in my country, I know that). Let's put it this way, mostly everybody can learn the syntax of a language but I doubt that really everybody is able to fully learn its semantics.

It's true though that this multi-lingual system is historically grown over a long period of time and it would certainly not be realistic trying to implement a multi-lingual system in a tight mono-lingual environment.

[Aurora]

Do you have just one official written language or does everything need to be written in four scripts i.e. French/English in Canada?