Metrogirl Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 In this article, published yesterday, lawyer Michael Geist takes a critical look at the 'fine print' accompanying Vista. He concludes that Vista brings an 'unprecedented loss of consumer control over their own personal computers'. ... for the past few months the legal and technical communities have dug into Vista's "fine print." Those communities have raised red flags about Vista's legal terms and conditions as well as the technical limitations that have been incorporated into the software at the insistence of the motion picture industry. The net effect of these concerns may constitute the real Vista revolution as they point to an unprecedented loss of consumer control over their own personal computers. In the name of shielding consumers from computer viruses and protecting copyright owners from potential infringement, Vista seemingly wrestles control of the "user experience" from the user. I have to agree - anyone who has read my posts on the subject will know that I have been dismayed by just how difficult it is to do anything slightly unusual on Vista; endless warning pop-ups, inability to read and write certain parts of the filesystem without jumping through hoops, mysterious processes that simply can't be disabled. The whole DRM business has been taken to the extreme. It's possible that this will backfire on MS; already HD-DVD is under attack by hackers who have been able to circumvent the HDCP (high definition copy protocol) restrictions and remove AACS encryption, and toolkits to 'fix' permissions on the filesystem are appearing in the wild. Unfortunately the majority of home users will just buy, use, and tolerate the restrictions that MS impose, and that's bad news for everyone. Link to comment https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/40488-vistas-legal-fine-print-raises-red-flags/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
br0adband Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 In this article, published yesterday, lawyer Michael Geist takes a critical look at the 'fine print' accompanying Vista. He concludes that Vista brings an 'unprecedented loss of consumer control over their own personal computers'. I have to agree - anyone who has read my posts on the subject will know that I have been dismayed by just how difficult it is to do anything slightly unusual on Vista; endless warning pop-ups, inability to read and write certain parts of the filesystem without jumping through hoops, mysterious processes that simply can't be disabled. The whole DRM business has been taken to the extreme. It's possible that this will backfire on MS; already HD-DVD is under attack by hackers who have been able to circumvent the HDCP (high definition copy protocol) restrictions and remove AACS encryption, and toolkits to 'fix' permissions on the filesystem are appearing in the wild. Unfortunately the majority of home users will just buy, use, and tolerate the restrictions that MS impose, and that's bad news for everyone. I would love to start with "No offense but..." although I can't. I'd love to say leave Vista alone and just use it, but I can't. I'd love to say all the morons out there that keep bashing it should just shut the hell up, but I can't. I'd love to say all those idiots that are making comments about Vista should also just shut the hell up, but I can't. What I can say is: it's hogwash, nearly all of it. People are turning a computer operating system into the equivalent of a world altering event like WWII or something, and it's just a damned computer operating system. What is it with you people, spreading F.U.D. so thick I'd have to chisel it off with a jackhammer to get to the real content that matters... The DRM issue isn't nearly as bad as the press and bloggers have made it out to be. It's practically inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, but it's getting blown out of proportion more and more by the minute. Vista is a new model for Windows, it's how things are going to be done now. If you don't like the fact that the operating system is designed almost to "protect itself" from you, the casual, non-casual, hardcore, experienced, inexperienced, geek, nerd, jerkoff, dickhead, scumbucket, goofball, Admin, power user, user, guest, etc... Don't run it. It's about that simple. It doesn't matter if you know squat about computers, it doesn't matter if you don't. It doesn't matter if you want root Admin access, it doesn't matter what you want to do. If you can't deal with the fact that Vista will do most everything it can to prevent you from totally pooching the system, or making it easy for some piece of malware that is soon to be created (I have 100% confidence in this) to bring your system to its knees, then don't buy it, don't run it, don't use it, don't install it. Walk away from it and go buy a Mac. Go get a Linux distro. Run UNIX and learn something. Go get the old version of BeOS that was released for free, or create your own OS. But for the love of Pete, get over it. And to think, Vista was just released a few hours ago on the world at large. I can just imagine how much more {censored} we'll see, how much more F.U.D. is yet to be spread. Bleh. bb Link to comment https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/40488-vistas-legal-fine-print-raises-red-flags/#findComment-289162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe75 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 it's hogwash, nearly all of it. the operating system is designed almost to "protect itself" from you Silly FUD Lovers Link to comment https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/40488-vistas-legal-fine-print-raises-red-flags/#findComment-289172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tha_toadman Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 well said! Link to comment https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/40488-vistas-legal-fine-print-raises-red-flags/#findComment-289181 Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe75 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Unfortunately the majority of home users will just buy, use, and tolerate the restrictions that MS impose, and that's bad news for everyone. I completely agree with that, and is one of the things that will help new or naive computer users to protect and guide them through the complicated computing world. I also think that all those extra measures are completely manageable to the experienced user and just more of a bother to change or disable. I'm still not sold on switching to Vista to run on a full time basis but I can recognize the improvements and understand the steps M$ is taking in the right direction to try and better their OS Link to comment https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/40488-vistas-legal-fine-print-raises-red-flags/#findComment-289209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metrogirl Posted January 30, 2007 Author Share Posted January 30, 2007 Hi Br0adband! Here's your new car! It's really nice and comfy, and it looks superb! We've limited it to 20 mph to "protect itself" from you. And if you want to drive to Seattle, you will have to use our car, because no other car is permitted to use the roads there. Don't even think of filling it up at a competitor's gas station, it won't run if you do. Oh, what's that? You don't like it? Well, you can always build your own. But you still can't go to Seattle in it. Seriously though, I agree that it's progress and that's not bad per se. I also think it's great that out of the box the system won't be a magnet for trojans, spyware and immediate membership of a botnet. The point of the article is that it's reporting what MS are not openly saying about the OS versus what they are proudly trumpeting to world. People have a right to know what they're buying, not have the detail concealed in poorly-defined small print. True, we're not forced to use Vista - yet - but in time Windows users will have no option when the software houses drop support for previous Windows versions. FUD relates to stuff which isn't proven, and most of the negatives raised with regard to Vista have been demonstrated. Link to comment https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/40488-vistas-legal-fine-print-raises-red-flags/#findComment-289211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandmanfvrga Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 (edited) br0adband, don't sound like and idiot. No offense. You sound like robotskip on this forums, which he may post but I have ignored him. So much Vista love makes me wonder if you really stand back, look at the "features" of Vista and see them for what they are, or just go with the masses. Vista probably IS a earth shattering event in the pc world. If you don't see that, then I am sorry. I think Vista is the end of Microsoft super dominance, though they will continue to have the majority for a long time, and the beginning for people to seek alternatives. I saw an ad this weekend and Vista Ultimate is $399. The upgrade, $259. F***. That is ridiculous. Then Office Ultimate was $679 and Professional is $499. Double f***. If you think this is good, then go ahead and empty you wallet to Microsoft. This factor alone will push MANY away from Vista including businesses. After the price tag shocker, then one has to deal with Vista's "security" or should I say restrictions on YOU the users. Again no offense, but Microsoft fan boys and/or Vista lovers really are blinded to allot of facts. Edited January 30, 2007 by sandmanfvrga Link to comment https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/40488-vistas-legal-fine-print-raises-red-flags/#findComment-289221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe75 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 The point of the article is that it's reporting what MS are not saying about the OS versus what they are proudly trumpeting to world. This is nothing new and we should be use to M$ trumpeting BS Link to comment https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/40488-vistas-legal-fine-print-raises-red-flags/#findComment-289232 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metrogirl Posted January 30, 2007 Author Share Posted January 30, 2007 This is nothing new and we should be use to M$ trumpeting BS Very true, and my intent was draw people's attention to the article because I felt it newsworthy. It also gives an insight into aspects that some people may not appreciate at this time. I didn't mean to reopen a debate as to whether Vista is bad, or good, or better than OS whatever. My mistake was voicing my personal opinion which gave the opportunity to comment on that, rather than the article. I apologise. The true underlying debate which has resurfaced is "If you want to join the club, do you have to stick to the rules?", i.e. if you want to use Vista, do you accept MS' restrictions? That one is already over on this forum - mostly people here didn't accept the rule of having to buy Apple hardware to join the OSX club,. Link to comment https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/40488-vistas-legal-fine-print-raises-red-flags/#findComment-289246 Share on other sites More sharing options...
borisbadenov Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 After reading Broadband's comments. I mostly agree with him. I have seen so many people comment in these forums on Vista/Xp vs. OSX but as with another useless topic on here asking which OS is faster, does all of this bickering really matter? I mean, who cares if one OS is a few nanosceonds faster than another? Or one GUI is different than another. I think my wife, who is not at all a computer geek, has it right. She is currently looking for a new laptop. I want to steer her towards a Mac. I can talk to her all day about the benefits, as I see them, over Microsoft but to her, she asks me simply, "Can I run the programs on it that I want and will it do what I want it to without hassle?" That is what I hear when I visit my local stores and browse the computer section. And for my personal preference, which OS do I favor? Well, I think my wife is right, I find that I use the OS that supports the software that I want/need to run. Neither OS has all the programs that I want/need, so I use the appropriate system and as far as the differences, I have learned to suck it up. Neither is perfect; they are just a platform to run my apps Link to comment https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/40488-vistas-legal-fine-print-raises-red-flags/#findComment-289256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
br0adband Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 In other words, it's utter {censored}, a step above what I was working at. As for me "trumpeting" Vista here, well, someone's gotta cut through the BS and all the Mac fandom, even if it is a primarily Mac oriented forum. If you don't want Windows around here, get rid of the Windows subforum and stop posting topics about Windows. When someone opens the door, I'm gonna step in and quash the idiocy fast, just as people stomp me for commenting about how crappy I think OSX is - and I speak from firsthand recent experience of owning 4 Macs that simply weren't worth the cost or the time. About the "people deserve to know" argument, that's ridiculous. Do you think people running a Linux distro know everything about it, top to bottom, front to back even if it is Open Source and the code is right there for their perusal? There's nothing in Vista that does anything to anyone, but the perceptions by bloggers, by media, by most anyone these days - save for someone that actually knows what the hell is going on... someone like me - is that it's the "end of the world as we know it." And that is simply not the case. bb Link to comment https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/40488-vistas-legal-fine-print-raises-red-flags/#findComment-289259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metrogirl Posted January 31, 2007 Author Share Posted January 31, 2007 Br0adband, we respect your opinion as you should respect the opinions of others. I feel your approach here is verging on the offensive, which is contrary to the spirit and rules of the forum. If you are trying to say my views are {censored}, please confirm this and I will respond accordingly. If you are referring to the lawyer whose report I linked, clarify that. I would rather not see anyone's views described in these terms no matter how strongly you may feel. Link to comment https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/40488-vistas-legal-fine-print-raises-red-flags/#findComment-289610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soündless Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 ms needs to make a more user friendly operating system. why should they care if we wanna F*** up our computers? Link to comment https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/40488-vistas-legal-fine-print-raises-red-flags/#findComment-289620 Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe75 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 My mistake was voicing my personal opinion which gave the opportunity to comment on that, rather than the article. I apologise. There's no mistake to apologize for and I like hearing a womans opinion around here, wish there were more to hear. I must admit that I don't like rules and I didn't buy Apple hardware to join the OSX club Link to comment https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/40488-vistas-legal-fine-print-raises-red-flags/#findComment-289625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Nonny Moose Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 I'm just being the devil's advocate here: First you scream about how insecure Windows is. So MS fixes it and now you're bitching about how you can't do what you did in Win XP, etc (which gave the security problems you bitched about in the first place). Link to comment https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/40488-vistas-legal-fine-print-raises-red-flags/#findComment-290237 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proteo Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 First you scream about how insecure Windows is. So MS fixes it and now you're bitching about how you can't do what you did in Win XP. That's actually a lie. Windows still insecure. Link to comment https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/40488-vistas-legal-fine-print-raises-red-flags/#findComment-290281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technobob Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 (edited) I have one thing to say to Microsoft GOOD BUY FOR GOOD!!! :angry2: I have been trying Vista since it was in alpha and I have never liked it but I hate it even more now after reading that article. Delete software or content off my system without my permission or knowledge, downgrade video quality it's never going to happen. Microsoft you can take Vista and stick it you know where Edited January 31, 2007 by Technobob Link to comment https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/40488-vistas-legal-fine-print-raises-red-flags/#findComment-290322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbz Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 As usual, I agree with Sandman! Link to comment https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/40488-vistas-legal-fine-print-raises-red-flags/#findComment-290431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcslayer Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 To broadband and his fellows: don't simply think others are blind with those marketing oriented words like: he/she just needs a platform to run he/she favor apps and even Linux is OpenSource how many people could understand all of it respects from top to bottom. 1. You just need a platform to run your favor apps. That's right, that OK. But when some people even do not know/understand exactly what they need, they just jump in the first car that they saw. That's right again. But who gave car manufacturer the right to lock the door to keep people using their car? even there are better cars in someways (like if you need to run the fastest and don't care about the comfort, or you need the least resource consumed ones). Other people blame the manufacturer because their bad monopoly behavior. Just look back to the Internet browser war. You install your radio on your car, trying to make radio stations on all over the world to only compatible with your radio receiver. Then your compititor simply died. How do you do that? gave radio station your $, your support, you open up you car in someway for them only, make some non-standard designs. And now when your car became not safe for customer anymore due to those non-standard design, you just close them (then you announce to the whole world you do that for customer, and you are the best when decied to do that ;-)) ), leave the radio stations crying out there to self-reconstuct their station back compatible with the safety standard. 2. Linux at least give people the right to know about their system whenever they need. And people did not charge you for the right to know. Link to comment https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/40488-vistas-legal-fine-print-raises-red-flags/#findComment-292496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
semthex Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 I'm just being the devil's advocate here: First you scream about how insecure Windows is. So MS fixes it and now you're bitching about how you can't do what you did in Win XP, etc (which gave the security problems you bitched about in the first place). Once again the vista/DRM trolling? Vista is not more secure than other windows before it is just badly locked down. But hey, I am pretty sure Vista will be broken. They have not fixed anything, they locked out the user. You know ... "trusted" computing ...I have to trust them but they do not trust me? What they try to do is not "trusted" or "mangment" it is a "enforced control" structure, which prevents a user from keeping control of it's machine. THAT IS NOT SECURITY. [...]In the social sciences, the subtleties of trust are a subject of passionate debate. In sociology (and psychology) the degree to which one party trusts another is a measure of belief in the benevolence and competence of the other party. A failure in trust will be forgiven more easily if it is interpreted as a failure of competence rather than a lack of benevolence. From this perspective, trust is an internal state, and cannot be measured. Only confidence, which is expressed as behavior, can be measured. Trust may be considered a moral choice. In this case, machine-human trust is meaningless, because computers have no moral sense. Any trust in a device under this characterization is computer-mediated trust of the user of the machine in the designer and creator of the device. [...] I strongly recommend everyone intrested in TCPA and it's problems watching this video: http://www.lafkon.net/tc/ That's actually a lie. Windows still insecure. I agree with that. Link to comment https://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/40488-vistas-legal-fine-print-raises-red-flags/#findComment-295248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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