Saddam - What say you?

[gwprod12]

Leader. Noun. A person or thing that leads. For someone to be a leader, they need followers, the number of followers dictating their quality of leadership. Most Germans followed Hitler. Did Hitler lead them away from their self-interest? Yes. Did he lead them? Yes. A bad leader is someone no one follows ;-p

 

So, while it's true that Hitler was a bad person, he was a great leader who led astray. He was also a great orator. And had he channeled his powers of oration and leadership towards more noble goals (which he was perceived to have done pre-poland), we'd call him a great man today. (as we call Winston Churchill and FDR, two other great leaders). No one much calls Jimmy Carter a great leader, though he's a very decent human being.

[xtraa]

Leader. Noun. A person or thing that leads. For someone to be a leader, they need followers, the number of followers dictating their quality of leadership. Most Germans followed Hitler. Did Hitler lead them away from their self-interest? Yes. Did he lead them? Yes. A bad leader is someone no one follows ;-p

 

So, while it's true that Hitler was a bad person, he was a great leader who led astray. He was also a great orator. And had he channeled his powers of oration and leadership towards more noble goals (which he was perceived to have done pre-poland), we'd call him a great man today. (as we call Winston Churchill and FDR, two other great leaders). No one much calls Jimmy Carter a great leader, though he's a very decent human being.

 

Ok, good point From that point of view, yes he was a powerful leader. But for me a leader is also responsible for his followers.

Or a leader at least must feel responsible for them. And Hitler just was charismatic. Goebbels was the first person who did something

what we today would call PR. He was impressed from the Coca-Cola marketing and he copied that and used it in the same way for

the politics of the NSDAP. We must not forget that this was absolutely new. since then the people never knew anything like marketing

and PR. No wonder they believed every {censored} that the nazi party told them.

[gwprod12]

It was easy to believe that the allies had crippled the german economy and that the allies were holding the german people back and in poverty. It was easy to believe because it was true. It was also easy to believe that while the people burned worthless money to keep themselves warm and ate old shoe leather, their jewish neighbours were playing with their gold and eating delicacies. It was also easy to believe because it was true. That's not to say all jews sat in their homes and ate well while the people around them starved. But it was a common sentiment backed up by reality. But then, the european jews were noteworthy for their greed and antisocial behavior, quite a bit moreso than now.

 

Hitler didnt really manifest the National Socialist platform out of thin air, he took advantage of real circumstances. Two horrible depressions, US and Germany. Two great leaders, Hitler and FDR. Two that solved their country's immediate economic problems. Except that Germany couldnt support it's population without territorial expansion and population displacement. The US could.

[aquanutz]

Say what you want, he had it coming one way or another. Frankly I am glad he is dead. I know plenty of you on here do not believe in Capital Punishment and that is fine by me but I am for him hanging.

 

Keep in mind I am not talking about the stability of Iraq at all in this reply, just the fact that I am glad that horrible person is not on this earth any more. Good ridance.

[bwhsh8r]

Communism - Capitalism... where is the difference. Same {censored} different name.

 

In communism you are not able to speak free (if you don't want to get arrested) and to stand up for your right.

In capitalism you are not able to speak free (if you don't want to get fired) and to pay a good lawyer.

 

In communism you can't buy many things because they are not avilable.

In capitalism you can't buy many things because you can't afford them.

 

In comunism you can't trust the national media, because they are teling you propaganda.

In capitalism you can't trust the free media because they get paid by their advertisers.

 

 

 

well.... true communism can never work, want to know why (i read the damn manifesto.... and it was quite booring, but im interested in this sort of thing) communism can never work because it says everyone needs to be equal, but it also needs a governing class, witch makes them above the others, and then they possibly abuse the power and whatnot (but thats not why it would fail... the first conundrum is...) that and in capitalism we get to reelect our crazys every two years.... and i have no opinion on Bush cause i cant vote so it doesnt matter anyway, so why should i give a {censored}??? so i can whine to people about how bad he is.... ? (thats just me, im not aiming that at anyone... as i assume most of you are ether from foreign countrys, or are of legal voting age, or just know alot)

 

 

and gwprod12, there was two problems with Hitler and one with his army, he was addicted to anphetamines (witch gave him feelings of invincibility, and made him feel like he was god, witch are valid effects of the drug, i can vouch, i take em legally for adhd.) and the 2nd was that he was more than likely crazy as a large part of his family suffered from mental illness. oh, and third, the stuff they made was extremely advanced, complicated, and as such required expertise to manufacture, we pumped out those {censored} little shermans at over 10:1 for panzers, and so we could send 10 at one panzer (or however many it took, the panzer could take out a sherman no problem... but we sent so many tanks at them they got over whelmed) ... oh, and they basically ran out of gas because they lost the african campaign.

 

and really, im kind of glad hes dead, yet im not... he wasnt hurting me, so im quite impartial... although i did watch that {censored} video of him being hanged....

 

and on the free media.... tv channels will refuse to run a commercial if it contains any false info or is offensive in any way (my dad is the local sales manager at our local cbs affiliate... and before that he worked for abc... so i hear about that {censored} all the time...) but then again everything could be considered propaganda because nothing can be neutral, thus trying to influence a group to believe one way... i hate cannabis propaganda (heh, http://www.freetheplant.org/blog/top-10-li...d-never-funded/ and theres more studys that suggest thc and cannaboids can help with cancer and altzhimers along with a couple other currently untreatable diseases).

[gwprod12]

Hitler was also widely reported to suffer from Neurosyphillis. Since the Soviets took the body back to dissect it, we have only their reports, but Neurosyphillis eats holes out of the brain causing increasing erratic behavior and disconnect with reality. None of which matters. He might have been organically crazy, or just a megalomaniac. It doesnt matter why; he did what he did.

 

Communism probably cant work in any reasonable way. This conclusion is easy to draw since communism has never really worked in any reasonable way. However, that is not to say that it cant. In a collectivist society, employment is allocated based on capability and societal needs (which makes americans, and free-enterprisers in general, crazy). A leader is no more equal than a street sweeper. They are just allocated resources based on their productivity. The problem with the communist system is that communism attempts to address a society in a way that capitalism is better designed to accomplish. In a true communism, you would have a planned capitalist economy, basicly, with those who are best qualified to be CEOs or Managers or Scientists being allocated the job of CEO or Manager or Scientist. In capitalism, people naturally gravitate to their capabilities and interests. So, it solves the same problem. In a marxist society, which isnt exactly what communism is all about, the primary focus is on the means of production. Which means basicly that food, housing and clothing are collectively produced and distributed equally. Everything else is up to the individual. Marxism is less of a top-down planned economy than you might think from looking at the soviet union or china. It merely addresses the issue of rich folk f-ing working folk up the yin yang (and not in a fun way) so they can be richer folk. When a person is not totally dependant on his/her wagemaster for his food and welfare, it liberates workers. An example of Marxism in our society would be employee-owned companies who are beholden entirely to their workers and not lazy fat-cats.

[Alessandro17]

Communism probably cant work in any reasonable way. This conclusion is easy to draw since communism has never really worked in any reasonable way. However, that is not to say that it cant.

 

We'll never know if socialism could have worked in Cuba, had it not been under US emargo.

 

As to everything else you write, much has been experienced in Social Democratic European countries, with excellent results. Trouble is, such countries have all moved to the right (capitalism)

Today I don't know if there is one single country which can still be called " a Social Democracy"

[aberracus]

Social democracy is suposedly Britain and France... really no kidding, jeje

 

About Leadership

leader |?l?d?r| noun 1 the person who leads or commands a group, organization, or country : the leader of a protest group. • a person followed by others : he is a leader among his classmates. • an organization or company that is the most advanced or successful in a particular area : a leader in the use of video conferencing. • the horse placed at the front in a team or pair. • (also Leader of the House) Brit. a member of the government officially responsible for initiating business in Parliament. 2 the principal player in a music group. • a conductor of a band or small musical group. • Brit. the principal first violinist in an orchestra. 3 Brit. a leading article or editorial in a newspaper. 4 a short strip of nonfunctioning material at each end of a reel of film or recording tape for connection to the spool. • a length of filament attached to the end of a fishing line to carry the hook or fly. 5 a shoot of a plant at the apex of a stem or main branch. 6 ( leaders) Printing a series of dots or dashes across the page to guide the eye, esp. in tabulated material.

 

So.. ok yo CANT quantify leadership, one guy who is followed is a leader, ther no such thing as bad leader, if a guy isnt followed he isnt a leader.

 

gwprod.. How can you say that? the Jews where the culprists of the German economic disaster of pre war II ?!!!!!!!! or the Allies? ah? maybe i remember bad but Germany attacked first in teh WWI so what the allies bestowed as punishment was German responsability, no less. There where a terrible situation in Germany but im sure that onw wasn't the exit, and History proves it.

 

The Father of Hitller wich was uncle of his mother was an antisemit and he was cruel with Adolf as a boy, he only learned to be cruel, and to hate the jews, there isnt an inch of true in your argument.

 

And for somebody ho have read bad my posts, i do think Adolf Hittler was a good Leader (strictly talking about the dictionary) but in the moral point of view, in what i expect from a Leader he wasnt, he was a crazy lunatic who nearle destroyed Esurope.

 

Have u seen the Fall of Hitler? is a german Movie, very good, it only happens inside Hittlers Bunker, i recommend it.

 

About Bush being Fascist, we can go to the Dictionary too :

 

fascism

|?fa sh ?iz?m| (also Fascism)

noun

An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

• (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice. The term Fascism was first used of the totalitarian right-wing nationalist regime of Mussolini in Italy (1922–43), and the regimes of the Nazis in Germany and Franco in Spain were also fascist. Fascism tends to include a belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group, a contempt for democracy, an insistence on obedience to a powerful leader, and a strong demagogic approach.DERIVATIVES fascist noun & adjective fascistic |fa? sh istik| adjective ORIGIN from Italian fascismo, from fascio ‘bundle, political group,’ from Latin fascis (see fasces ).

 

Ronding up:

Bush is Right Wing?

Bush is Authorritarian and intolerant, and without contempt for democracy? ejem, Patriot Act...

Bush doesn't have a strong belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group... Israel and The Church in USA ? Advance in science has been slowed down in bush administration in many areas.

Bush ism't insistent in the necesity of America to have a Strong Leader and to obey him? That was about the Reelection campign.

Under Bush Media is alligned with him, if not they ae against America an the War on Terror.

 

 

So.. Bush, is a Fascist, proved by Dictionary (wich i didnt start to use in this discussion.

 

And to be in theme, Saddam was a Dicator and probably he could have been only deponed by another faction in his own government.

 

Killing him was just vengance, and the necesity to silence him, dont forget Americna CIA ties with him in the past.

 

I really hope to see Bush impeached at least.

 

I hate to see Americans Hated around the globe, i have too many friends in America, very good ppl, and i fly there a lot, and really like it a lot (but with more freedom please!!!)

 

my LONG two cents

[consolation]

maybe i remember bad but Germany attacked first in teh WWI so what the allies bestowed as punishment was German responsability, no less. There where a terrible situation in Germany but im sure that onw wasn't the exit, and History proves it.

 

You remember bad:

A Serbian (Bosnian?) Nationalist Gavrilo Princip shot and killed Archduke Franz Ferdinand in Sarajevo. This caused the Austro-Hungarian empire to invade Serbia... This triggered a complex network of treaties and pacts that dragged the whole continent into a war.

[Alessandro17]

Social democracy is suposedly Britain and France... really no kidding, jeje

 

Good post.

As to Britain, I know yours is only a joke.

But just in case anybody still believes the UK is a Social Democracy, Mr Blair decided that virtually every single mother and every disabled person *had* to go to work (that wasn't officially acknowledged, but it was the government hidden agenda-everybody with a minimum knowledge of British politics knows how important hidden agendas are), while it was OK to spend £7bn on the Iraqi war:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../20/nterr20.xml

 

So why did the British vote Labour again? Simply because there is no alternative, except maybe for the Liberal Democrats, but people believe the Liberal Democrats could never get enough votes to form a government (that is what you call a self-fulfilling prophecy:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy )

[gwprod12]

President Bush, while not Hitler, Franco or Musselini is at the very least mildly fascistic.

 

Everyone should work. I mean, they really should. Starting with rich fat-cats. Working is a meaningful activity. Some people should work less than others, however. But everyone should have put in time towards society. My dad, who's wheel-chair bound with MS doesnt "work" per-se. But he does volunteer his expertise as a community basketball coach. That should be enough. But I understand Blair's perspective. No one can afford to be an unadulterated drain on society. They have to contribute something, no matter how small.

 

Back to Saddam. Poor Saddam.

[Alessandro17]

But I understand Blair's perspective. No one can afford to be an unadulterated drain on society. They have to contribute something, no matter how small.

 

Single parents contribute more than enough to society. Maybe you can't fully understand that. But if you were an Italian you would. In a few decades there will be no more Italians in Italy, as having children is such a major commitment and people don't feel like working and looking after children at the same time.

Disabled people also contribute, in some way. However, depending on their disability, they can't take a 9 to 5 job for 5 or 6 days a week.

 

Anyway my point was that a country which feels the need to cut on social security expenditure but doesn't mind spending billions on useless (and morally wrong) wars isn't a Social Democracy, it is no better than a dictatorship.

[gwprod12]

In an overly depopulated society, promiscuity is a virtue ;-p

 

What I was saying is that someone who's physically or mentally incapable of doing anything of social importance should be exempt. Someone without legs can do work that doesnt require legs (like a desk job perhaps). In the US especially, where underpopulation really isnt an issue, Jane Do cant be sitting at home popping out kids on the government's dole. No one else wants to pay for them. She should be doing something... like getting an education.

[Alessandro17]

In an overly depopulated society, promiscuity is a virtue ;-p

 

Provided that somebody looks properly after the children who are born from promiscuity :censored2:

[Mac and Cheese]

It's a shame how the US gov't can go in and invade a country on a false pretense (WMD), then set up a tribunal to try someone for something that wasn't a crime when it was commited, and in a place where they have absolutely no jurisdiction.

If the US wants to imprison or try someone, it should be suject to the constitution and laws of our land. they should not be denied due process. It makes us out of hipocrits

Edited January 7, 2007 by Mac and Cheese

[gwprod12]

It's shameful that Bushie finds the constitution so inconvenient. The constitution is so great because it is inconvenient.

[tomazzzi]

for me it s just silly to kill someone

 

the best way would have been to let him die on a jail ...

[Alessandro17]

Why do I want to revive this old thread? Because the subject still hurts, and that is why:

 

http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?sho...49039&st=20 post #30

 

Yeah. People were dying in Iraq also, yeah.

There is only one problem, during Saddam times there were killed much less, that were killed during last few years after invasion.

Isn't it really interesting? Probably Saddam was just a person who has been able to keep order in this country?

So far I see that he did this job much better than all US and non-US forces right now. With much lower price.

 

If Saddam deserved to be hanged, what do Bush, Cheney et al deserve? Personally I'd fry them very slowly.

[jgrimes80]

If Saddam deserved to be hanged, what do Bush, Cheney et al deserve? Personally I'd fry them very slowly.

 

Need a hug?

[Alessandro17]

Need a hug?

 

No thanks. I'd like to see justice.

What is wrong with the American people? A President risks impeachment because of... a {censored}

A President who causes the death of countless thousands deserves to stay in office till the last day.

[Mebster]

You know my faith tells me Saddam deserved to be hanged because of the atrocities he committed and so does my own inner feeling when I think about it all (although I don't like the capital punishments very much)

 

But saying that, to hang him on Eid day... that was hugely upsetting. Even my mother who knows nothing about the guy felt sorry for him. Eid is a day when 1.6 Billion Muslims celebrate, and here is a Muslim who's going to his death on this very special day. True many Iraqis will celebrate Eid and his death together, but they would have celebrated his death regardless of which day it happened - so why not make it the day after? All I remember is coming home from Eid pray to see my family, putting on the news and seeing Saddam had been hanged. I know I felt more alienated as a Muslim that day. On one of the most important days of the Muslim calender we can still be taunted (taunt each other).

 

Another major thing that got me was seeing a dead man being mocked just before his dying moments. That just wasn't right. He's paying for his crimes. Let that be. But the guy was brave for a man who knows he's time has come. Refusing to acknowledge the puppet administration that has been put up and also declining to wear the hood over his head. How many of use could honestly say we would be so fearless?

 

But as a Muslim to see him being hang in the middle of reciting one of the most important verses Muslims recite. We recite this verse at the end of each pray we do, five times day. So we probably recite it almost 20 times a day. And to see Saddam recite this while holding a Qur'an just increases the feeling of brotherhood. At least it does for me.

 

Ashhadu an la ilaha ill Allah

I bear witness that there is no deity but Allah

 

wa ashhadu anna Muhammadan abduhu wa rasuluh

and I bear witness that Muhammad is His Servant and Apostle

 

He was hanged as he was reciting the word Muhammadan.

 

BBC News: Saddam Hussein Executed (doesn't show the execution itself)

Video of Saddam Hussein being executed (Warning: unedited)

 

Alessandro17, it's brave for you to dig this old thread back up.

[Alessandro17]

Alessandro17, it's brave for you to dig this old thread back up.

 

Thanks. And your post almost moved me to tears. Being a non-Muslim who lived for years with Muslims in great friendship and mutual respect, I liked your post very much.

[jgrimes80]

No thanks. I'd like to see justice.

What is wrong with the American people? A President risks impeachment because of... a {censored}

A President who causes the death of countless thousands deserves to stay in office till the last day.

 

First off, what makes you think the United Nations will try to put on trial the arguably most powerful man in the world (without the US for enforcement, well the UN is pretty bleh)?

 

Secondly, Clinton was not impeached because of a {censored}. His impeachment was over perjury. (petty perjury if you ask me, but we Americans have "morals"... lol)

 

Thirdly, to be impeached is nothing more than to be formally accused.

 

Lastly, Bush isn't the first president to kill folks on an international level regularly...

 

 

But your better because you want to torture two people via a frying pan... oh the level of civility.

[Alessandro17]

First off, what makes you think the United Nations will try to put on trial the arguably most powerful man in the world (without the US for enforcement, well the UN is pretty bleh)?

 

I never said that, I am not so naive. A civilized country should deal with its presidents without the intervention of the UN.

 

But your better because you want to torture two people via a frying pan... oh the level of civility.

 

I said that out of anger. A normal death sentence is not enough in my eyes for people who are as evil as Bush, Cheney et al.

[Mebster]

Thanks. And your post almost moved me to tears. Being a non-Muslim who lived for years with Muslims in great friendship and mutual respect, I liked your post very much.

Hi mate, thanks for your words. Really appreciate it. It's nice to know there are people out there with a heart.