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Microsoft does it again with Windows 7

VooD

By VooD,
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MadDoggyca
MadDoggyca
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Im running windows Seven X64 RTM.. any slow issues here? Nope

 

lets see the specs are as followed

 

AlianWare Aurua

AMD Phanton X4 2.2GHZ

16 GIG ram

7.1 Sound

Nvidia G260 896MB

 

nope no issues here.. oh did I forget to tell u it runs faster and draws 2d/3d images quicker then windows xp sp3 dose?

 

 

it must be that x64 with 16 gig that dose it compared to x86 with only 3 gig usable?

 

my point is don't expect to run a os that is 9 years newer then your hardware.. and if you do run it. you by rights have no rights to complain about it.

 

and if your looking for a os that lets say over 9 year dosn't improve much run linux.

 

for example Fedora Core 1-11 not much as changed beside a few kernel updates with ether KDE or Grome slightly updated.. in the end FC11 is almost the same FC1. Were it can run the same packages as well as install and run the same performance on the same hardware over a 9 year period

 

what your really looking for is not change at all.. your one of those people that alwazs live in the past and can never seem to jump into the flowing stream of ever changing life

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ChocolateJeff
ChocolateJeff
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You know...

 

I've been reading this topic and feel a little bad for VooD for getting all these "attacks". What he simply did was to show you that Microsoft has left out the 2D performance issue with Vista and carried it through Windows 7. I myself thought that this would be solved because almost EVERY program that uses a window/scrollbar/menu system "GDI" based. It seems that he is right and that Windows 7 still doesn't fix the problem with WWDM 1.1? (in his video and my very own test)

 

Nothing mentioned anything about Windows 7 being "bad" . Heck, I'm planning to run it on my rig once I build it in Oct. Looking at the review and having tested the beta version, it seem like an awesome operating system.

 

C'mon ppl, stop picking on the guy. He did nothing wrong!

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U.C.
U.C.
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@ ChoclateJeff

 

Yeah your right and maybe drawing is a bit slower etc. But I find the OS is smooth. After a long time Micorsoft made a half-decent OS. I only use Windows for Games. And they run faster on 7 than on XP. Maybe thats due to 64-bit or whatever, but they are smoother and better.

 

Of course MS can never ever produce software as good as OSX, which is why OSX will always be my main OS. I dunno about 2D drawing or whatever, but with 4 Cores I really couldn't care less.

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GenMatrix
GenMatrix
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You know...

 

I've been reading this topic and feel a little bad for VooD for getting all these "attacks". What he simply did was to show you that Microsoft has left out the 2D performance issue with Vista and carried it through Windows 7. I myself thought that this would be solved because almost EVERY program that uses a window/scrollbar/menu system "GDI" based. It seems that he is right and that Windows 7 still doesn't fix the problem with WWDM 1.1? (in his video and my very own test)

 

Nothing mentioned anything about Windows 7 being "bad" . Heck, I'm planning to run it on my rig once I build it in Oct. Looking at the review and having tested the beta version, it seem like an awesome operating system.

 

C'mon ppl, stop picking on the guy. He did nothing wrong!

 

I was merely looking for an example of how this adversely affects tasks done while using Windows 7. He doesn't give one. So even with all his research and comments, I still believe that this is just a case of trying to find anything and everything with wrong with said product. I kept my posting as neutral as possible.

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VooD
VooD
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I was merely looking for an example of how this adversely affects tasks done while using Windows 7. He doesn't give one. So even with all his research and comments, I still believe that this is just a case of trying to find anything and everything with wrong with said product. I kept my posting as neutral as possible.

Are you blind?

 

Or, why don't you put icon view, then go to c:\windows\system32 and try to scroll up and down while you look at your cpu usage?

 

I'll save you the effort. You'll get nearly 100% cpu usage, bad scrolling response, and the movement isn't any near of smooth. By comparison in XP you'll use about 15% cpu, and you'll get a supersmoth scrolling, the same happen in MacOS X, smooth and responsive scrolling, low cpu usage.

 

It's like talking to a wall.

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GenMatrix
GenMatrix
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No, stop taking it personally. I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, no need to get so defensive. I just don't think you understand what I'm asking for here; all you give is examples of scrolling and how it uses too much CPU, that's ALL.. You post something on a forum and expect people to follow your opinion blindly? In a perfect world maybe.

 

Relax, I'm just trying to find the significance in this other than the fact that scrolling uses too much CPU and that developers {censored} about it.

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VooD
VooD
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No, stop taking it personally. I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, no need to get so defensive. I just don't think you understand what I'm asking for here; all you give is examples of scrolling and how it uses too much CPU, that's ALL.. You post something on a forum and expect people to follow your opinion blindly? In a perfect world maybe.

 

Relax, I'm just trying to find the significance in this other than the fact that scrolling uses too much CPU and that developers {censored} about it.

 

omg....so what did you give me in order to illustrate what you say other than your standart "it's ok here"? I gave you real data, I even recorded it in video because I suspected something like this would happen (people blinded by their "fanboysm"), provided documentation, what else do you need? "E pur si muove"?????

 

About the scrolling (in fact all of GDI based functions)...I guess you have never used real time priority software. Just imagine this: I'm working on the final mixing for an album in Protools and I'm already using almost 4 of my cores at 100%. Now, while I play the song I decide to open the mixer view, and scroll it in order to get access to a non initially visible bus so I can change its level and hear the results at the same time....and what happens?

 

The song stops:

 

"Your CPU has no enough power to play this project"

 

That's right, GDI used so much cpu time from one of my cores that Protools had not enough power processing to keep the song playing.

 

Or in case, you make your application to have the highest priority you would find the scrolling so slow that it would be very difficult to work with.

 

I'm not wasting a single second with your comments anymore, specially given that all of your arguments are exclusively based on your subjective statement : "I don't see any problem", "It's fast enough for me", etc...

 

I really wish I could just ignore all of the Windows 7 problems as you do, but I can't.

 

So please. If you don't agree with what I explained (and demonstrated), just ignore this thread and enjoy your Windows 7.

 

Bye

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GenMatrix
GenMatrix
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omg....so what did you give me in order to illustrate what you say other than your standart "it's ok here"? I gave you real data, I even recorded it in video because I suspected something like this would happen (people blinded by their "fanboysm"), provided documentation, what else do you need? "E pur si muove"?????

 

About the scrolling (in fact all of GDI based functions)...I guess you have never used real time priority software. Just imagine this: I'm working on the final mixing for an album in Protools and I'm already using almost 4 of my cores at 100%. Now, while I play the song I decide to open the mixer view, and scroll it in order to get access to a non initially visible bus so I can change its level and hear the results at the same time....and what happens?

 

The song stops:

 

"Your CPU has no enough power to play this project"

 

That's right, GDI used so much cpu time from one of my cores that Protools had not enough power processing to keep the song playing.

 

Or in case, you make your application to have the highest priority you would find the scrolling so slow that it would be very difficult to work with.

 

I'm not wasting a single second with your comments anymore, specially given that all of your arguments are exclusively based on your subjective statement : "I don't see any problem", "It's fast enough for me", etc...

 

I really wish I could just ignore all of the Windows 7 problems as you do, but I can't.

 

So please. If you don't agree with what I explained (and demonstrated), just ignore this thread and enjoy your Windows 7.

 

Bye

 

Thank you for giving a clear cut example other than the scrolling but First and foremost, I already posted before saying that I was not denying it, I cannot deny clear cut evidence. You make the implication that I'm fanboy, yet I have not once even defended this operating system in this entire topic, I said Windows 7 was nice.

 

Lets get one thing square here, if you're going try and quote me (or even attempt to make it seem like I said something), make sure I've said it to begin with. I never said anything about it being fast enough for me, I never even cared to try it (the test to see if it uses boatloads of CPU). Oh but wait I'm a fanboy I should have Windows 7 installed and up and running at all times right? Nope, I use OSX exclusively at the moment because Windows screws up too much for my liking.

 

All your assumptions and your extremely defensive attitude make me wonder why you even posting things on a discussion board. You posted it here for feedback, because if you didn't want anyone talking to you about this you wouldn't have posted it on a DISCUSSION board. I'm trying to not be {censored} about it, but you insist on crying like a baby who just got their candy stolen. So how about you put your big boy pants on and learn to discuss and read things properly, without putting words in people's mouths and actually reading what people ask for instead of being like "omg u r blind?!"

 

Thanks.

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MadDoggyca
MadDoggyca
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hmm I tried your idea with my windows xp sp3 and when I resize the service windows it lags with white..... a lot of white.. I even manged to freeze it twice.

 

I also noticed your running 8600GT 256 with is 4.0 Pixal shader but only 8-16 pipelines depending your who made the 8600GT your running...

 

Im running a card that has 36 Pixel pipelines

 

 

for anyone out ther that runs windows hold down the windows key(beside alt) + "E" for about 10 seconds.. now thats interesting stuff if u ask me

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Baliw
Baliw
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@VooD,

Tried what you did on your video, not happening on my Win 7 RC x64 and Vista X64. Notice we almost have the same spec except for the video memory. There must be something wrong on your system.

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VooD
VooD
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I've tested that on several different computers, with both ATI and nvidia cards. The problems has nothing to do win x64, number of pixel shaders, or ram. The problem is tha lack of GDI 2d acceleration which is something Microsoft removed since Vista. Read the video description, for detailed info.

 

(can anyone post a video showing smooth column resizing in services.msc, and low cpu usage while scrolling c:\windows\system32\ in icon view? )

 

Anyway the main point is not the artifacts in the composition system. Is the general slowness the lack of GDI acceleration causes. Try yourself any GDI test in both XP and Windows 7 and compare the performance. (I wonder if most people just stops the video after the first 20 seconds...)

 

Even Passmark's coder has confirmed this behaviour, and the huge performance difference between XP and Windows 7 GUI system. And believe me, they have tested this in many many many different computers. It's their job.

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maverick_pranav
maverick_pranav
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Why do we keep comparing VISTA/7 with XP!!????....XP is almost 8 years old now!!.... When XP was released back in 2001-2002 it faced same criticism that vista/7 face today!.. They didn't like the theme.. thought 128 MB ram was too much to ask!

 

And I can definitely say that Vista/7 are faster when GDI is concerned.. just try the following tests->

1)Create a form with visual studio with 50% opacity. try resizing it by code and measure the time taken using a stopwatch(system.diagnostics) and then compare it in Vista.

2) create a form with some background image and add about 50 labels with transparent background. Try refreshing them and match the time!

 

Also the icons in Vista are using PNG compression.. thus making the whole process even more resource hungry..

Whether its XP or Vista..GDI was always rendered through CPU..

GPU comes into the picture only with Direct X.

 

Biggest problem in Vista is the background indexing... System really gets a big boost by switching that off!.

And XP has to boot faster!.. Its running on a machine almost 12-20 times the power that it was originally meant to run!

Try windows 98,it would run even faster!!!

 

Also check out Leopard on a macbook with GMA 950 GPU.. You can see a lag in the dock animation and also the genie effects!!

 

Its easy to complain and criticize things!.. Windows has got so many options for a developer!..If you want your application to be graphic intensive then its wise to use WPF!!..And if thats not enough use DirectX to render your components!

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FKA
FKA
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?

 

I run and old copy of adobe premiere CS on win7x64 and it runs like a sack of {censored} compared to XP.

I'm the first to admitt I now very little about this but I'm under the impression the 32bit libraries aint up to much.

FCP (32bit) on leopard is fine.

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VooD
VooD
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Why do we keep comparing VISTA/7 with XP!!????....XP is almost 8 years old now!!...
That's correct, they had 8 years to improve the code and build a faster os, but they obviosuly didn't.

 

And I can definitely say that Vista/7 are faster when GDI is concerned.. just try the following tests->
I've already tried 3 different GDI tests (one built specificly to test render time in windows 7 vs xp by a person who initially didn't believe my results). All of them scored MUCH better in XP.

 

Whether its XP or Vista..GDI was always rendered through CPU..

GPU comes into the picture only with Direct X.

That's not correct. Check the documentation on this thread or in the video's description.

 

Also check out Leopard on a macbook with GMA 950 GPU.. You can see a lag in the dock animation and also the genie effects!!
And that's related somehow with Windows 7 lack of hardware GDI?

 

Its easy to complain and criticize things!.. Windows has got so many options for a developer!..If you want your application to be graphic intensive then its wise to use WPF!!..And if thats not enough use DirectX to render your components!
The problem is 99% of nowaday''s windows apps are GDI based, and so does most of the os components, and since microsoft decided no longer to support full hardware gdi acceleration they will draw everything slower and using much more cpu than they did in XP.
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maverick_pranav
maverick_pranav
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Yes! 8 years!!.. and how can you say things haven't improved!!... just because GDI is slow(according to me its not)!!

there are tons of drawbacks!.. but they don't negate the features!..

Its not just building a faster OS.. Its about evolution as a whole!...

As for application incompatibility.. or apps being slower!.. Yes I have to agree!.. on that!!..

 

But again the question is why are they getting slow!???..

There's lot more to to take care in case of vista/7... than in case of XP. Incase of vista the windows are rendered much more smoothly and perfectly than in case of XP... Not all components are rendered through GDI!.. The glass or Aero part in Vista and 7 is rendered differently than rest of the window..

Plus there are a lot of old APIs which though are supported by Vista.. but their implementation internally is not same as it was in XP or before..A lot of applications simply don't support Aero.. they switch to standard theme!.. but their new versions work just as they would on XP.

One thing for sure is that Microsoft is having tough time balancing between Hardware Acceleration and CPU rendering(software) as there are still a lot of machines out there that simply don't have enough graphic power!

 

I would not say that, Windows at the moment is perfect!!.. but its exciting to see the development thats going on!.. It's come a long way since the Vista RC1... which was slower than XP running in a virtual machine... to "7" which actually promises to bring the performance back.. without losing frills of Vista!...

 

Also just finished writing code for my app(InSight Desktop Search)... and had tough time getting the animations right!.. in lot of cases XP would render the app in 15 ms while Vista on same machine would do it in about 2-5 ms!!..

Also controls flicker while we hover another window over the application in case of XP.. while in Vista its smooth!!.. So as far as I have experienced..Its better in Vista/7!.

 

And I have read whatever thats there on this post!.. and again GDI is not rendered by hardware!!

 

As per your posted Videos:

*Cpu usage being higher is also due to the fact that.. as we scroll HDD is being accessed and that involves CPU!!!!!!!!!!

We have not actually considered what happening when we scroll?? Is it just drawing of icons...?????

leaving everything else aside.. just considering the fact that icons in case of vista are having "png" compression thus better support for alpha channel..CPU hike can be expected!!!!!

*There are just a few GDI features that support hardware acceleration!!!!.

*As of what I know..listbox..panels..etc are controls are rendered through CPU only!(not considering WPF Apps and DirectX rendered controls)

Also GUI(controls) are more graphically complex in case of Vista/7

 

The only point I want to make is that!... its about time that hardware acceleration reaches every part of whats being drawn on screen..And at same time not just compare it with XP!.. Its not that XP had hardware acceleration and Vista/7 don't!!!

I think a fare comparison would be if we create a test that only involves the drawing capability of GDI!..

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MadDoggyca
MadDoggyca
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just to shuffle things up all this talk about GUI and slowness. and in some cases OSX how come no ones charmed in about X.11/Xorg Gnome/KDE/Xface? or dose linux really suck that much that no one talks of it..

 

actually linux really dose suck that bad but thats no my point

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VooD
VooD
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Also just finished writing code for my app(InSight Desktop Search)... and had tough time getting the animations right!.. in lot of cases XP would render the app in 15 ms while Vista on same machine would do it in about 2-5 ms!!..

Also controls flicker while we hover another window over the application in case of XP.. while in Vista its smooth!!.. So as far as I have experienced..Its better in Vista/7!.

Windows Vista and 7 have double buffered vertical syncronization, that's why you get flickering in XP and not in Vista/7. Also I believe transparecies are managed by the new compositing system which uses full direct3d acceleration (which has the potential to overpass the old gdi functions)

 

 

 

And I have read whatever thats there on this post!.. and again GDI is not rendered by hardware!!
http://blogs.msdn.com/directx/archive/2009...in-windows.aspx : "With the release of Windows Vista, GDI hardware acceleration was removed. " Cards even as old as the first geforce had full gdi hardware acceleration. Please, make a more in depth research. GDI hardware acceleration has been present in Windows for years, and even some brands such as Matrox made of its GDI acceleration one of their main selling point (by arguing theirs was faster than the competency).

 

As per your posted Videos:

*Cpu usage being higher is also due to the fact that.. as we scroll HDD is being accessed and that involves CPU!!!!!!!!!!

We have not actually considered what happening when we scroll?? Is it just drawing of icons...?????

leaving everything else aside.. just considering the fact that icons in case of vista are having "png" compression thus better support for alpha channel..CPU hike can be expected!!!!!

Yep, you can see how in the Windows 7 part, at first all the 4 cores are used as the png decoding and hd accessing is done, but once is cached in ram, there's still one full core used at 100%.

 

Never wondered what that pretty slider at Windows XP video properties did? I will give you the answer: switching between different 2d hardware acceleration levels

 

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms797889.aspx

 

GDI operations are in fact executed at driver level in the video hardware.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms799616.aspx

 

 

I think a fare comparison would be if we create a test that only involves the drawing capability of GDI!..
That's exactly what Passmark PerfomanceTest GUI perfomance test does, and so does CrystalMark GDI test, and the same goes to the small GDI test a guy coded in order to test this issue. All of them showed a huge perfomance difference between Windows XP and Windows 7.
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GenMatrix
GenMatrix
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OP is an idiot. 2D performance is better thanks to Direct2D.

 

Oh and there is another little thing. You are talking about an unreleased OS. Snow Leopard on my Macbook Pro isn't exactly great either.

 

I know this is a Mac forum but I don't see the need for blind bias.

 

QFT.

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VooD
VooD
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Im running windows 7 and i can tell you it pisses all over xp & vista ,,, :D

[ironic]Nice scientific statement, I got a ford T and it pisses all over ferrari and lamborghini[/ironic]

 

lol

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MadDoggyca
MadDoggyca
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[ironic]Nice scientific statement, I got a ford T and it pisses all over ferrari and lamborghini[/ironic]

 

lol

 

 

heres ignorance^^^^

 

just becuz windows 7 GDI in your view blows out the a@@ dose not mean it takes the entire os down!

 

as for the statement above in the long run windows Seven dose in fact {censored} all over Xp and vista

 

after all theres more to a os then GDI or are u blinded by the fact that this small irreverent GDI problem have your eyes distorted for the real view of windows seven?

 

oh talking about the lack of GDI have you ever wonder why this really is! Or are u still gripping to the past... if you havn't got from underneath your rock let me give u what you been missing

 

"DirectWrite is one of the new additions to the DirectX family of APIs in Windows 7. DirectWrite enables better readability, adds support for a large variety of languages and scripts, and in conjunction with Direct2D provides superior rendering performance for Windows applications. Applications can also use DirectWrite with GDI and carry forward existing investments in the Win32 code base. You can read more about DirectWrite here http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd...28VS.85%29.aspx

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