U.S Presidency

[Descalzo]

That's a good thing

Another good thing

What?

 

 

Uh...no.

I don't think "friends" is the right word, maybe "people who were on the same committee together."

Actually, his VP is Joe Biden

His friends aren't terrorists, and the United States government is the bad guy.

 

Happy to correct you, now go sodomize yourself with a retractable baton.

 

Polite as always,

~Numberzz

I think he's referring to Obama's close association, even alliance, with that Ayers guy, the one who admitted to being a terrorist, and has also admitted to being unrepentant.

[Alessandro17]

it isnt fair to take our hard earned prosperity and give it to undeserving lazy/dumb people

it isnt fair to take our hard earned prosperity and give it to undeserving lazy/dumb people

 

Like people who work like mad for peanuts? (Maybe they are dumb because they don't start a revolution).

 

I don't understand why you Americans have a society at all, considering that you want to go back to the Law of the Jungle.

 

Wait a moment... The purpose of your society is making the wealthy wealthier and waging war against other countries.

[Numberzz]

Like people who work like mad for peanuts? (Maybe they are dumb because they don't start a revolution).

 

I don't understand why you Americans have a society at all, considering that you want to go back to the Law of the Jungle.

 

Wait a moment... The purpose of your society is making the wealthy wealthier and waging war against other countries.

 

As sad as that sounds, hence the " ," that is true. Within two years, I will be moving to another country. I was thinking either Canada, because of the distance to my family, or Sweden, because Sweden is awesome.

[brainbone]

I think he's referring to Obama's close association, even alliance, with that Ayers guy, the one who admitted to being a terrorist, and has also admitted to being unrepentant.

 

If you're going that route, then Palins much more close association to secessionists that have very deep hatred for the US should be under closer inspection.

[aduffbrew]

I don't understand why you Americans have a society at all, considering that you want to go back to the Law of the Jungle.

 

Wait a moment... The purpose of your society is making the wealthy wealthier and waging war against other countries.

*laugh*

 

Yes... yes... the entirety of human contribution made by the people of the United States can be boiled down to current affairs on Wall Street and Pennsylvania Avenue. Just brilliant. Please don't get me started on Italy.

 

Dubyah's administration has certainly knocked us off our self-erected pedestal. We will now have to acknowledge our rightful place among the community of nations. Like all countries everywhere, our greatest resource is our people. Much like Europe after the fall of the imperial age, we will redefine our global role, reinvent our purpose, and rise from the ashes of self-delusion, arrogance, and cultural xenophobia.

 

And for the record, there are many things we ARE doing right. If you are disgusted by the United States, consider its people selfish and self-serving, and think it a cultural wasteland, then I can only guess you watch too much television. We are, if not perfect, a kind and generous people. We lead the world in humanitarian aide. Our universities still attract the greatest minds of our day from around the world. Our contributions to the arts and sciences are vast and help fuel human ingenuity the world over.

 

I love visiting Europe... I love its sense of history and continuity. It is a cultural treasure too few "Americans" have had the pleasure to experience. That said, it is by no means a utopia. I'm not about to trade my country's shortcoming for yours, thank you. Personally, I think we can ALL use some time of self-reflection. I am no more ashamed of being American than I think people should be ashamed of being European, African, or Asian. We all have a hand in making the world what it is. We all have our share of mistakes to take responsibility for. And equally, we all have our triumphs we can be proud of.

 

I am hoping our confidence is sufficiently shaken to spur change in Washington come January. Like I said before, the president is one person and the head of only one branch of our government. For the needed transformation, I only hope they have the ability to inspire others to rise to the occasion. Neither candidate is perfect... but I am equally optimistic.

[Descalzo]

If you're going that route, then Palins much more close association to secessionists that have very deep hatred for the US should be under closer inspection.

I have no problem with the candidates' associations being examined.

[solaar]

We are, if not perfect, a kind and generous people. We lead the world in humanitarian aide. Our universities still attract the greatest minds of our day from around the world. Our contributions to the arts and sciences are vast and help fuel human ingenuity the world over.

No doubt about that, and I truly mean it. It's just a shame that there seem to be more non-Americans, proportionally per country, who are able to genuinely appreciate and understand those contributions than a large part of Americans themselves.

 

However, I reckon it should be in every civilised country's best interest to keep their people educated and healthy. Anything less may get dangerously close to a 'third world' kind of approach.

[aduffbrew]

No doubt about that, and I truly mean it. It's just a shame that there seem to be more non-Americans who are able to genuinely appreciate and understand those contributions than a large part of Americans themselves.

 

However, I reckon it should be in every civilised country's best interest to keep their people educated and healthy. Anything less may get dangerously close to a 'third world' kind of approach.

We should keep in mind, "the ugly American" is just a stereotype. If I could, I would keep the most ignorant among us off the airwaves and safe and sound here at home away from our horrified global friends and neighbors... but I can't. Sadly, our politicians and media pander to them. It's funny, the vast majority who don't feel compelled to share their opinion probably should. The world would have quite a different take on us if the did.

 

People really are just people where ever you look. Misunderstandings abound. As a species, we're pretty phenomenal.... and equally capable. We can all be proud of our nations' accomplishments.

 

I look forward to some frank introspection from the next administration... building on what works and ditching what doesn't. Like everyone else, we're mixed bag of good and bad example. It's time we humbled ourselves and looked seriously at what others are doing. The solutions are out there... probably staring us right in the face. The American decline has been decades in the making and it will take that long or more to turn things around. I am confident we will, though. We don't really have a choice. Necessity is the mother of invention, right?

 

In my opinion, affordable healthcare and education are a human right. It is in the collective self interest. A socialist approach might be what is best... but there are other alternatives that might fit the American system better. I've been listening to some interesting proposals from the Libertarians that sound promising. It would be nice to have options. Europe can continue perfecting socialized medicine and perhaps we might become an effective model of something different... whatever the case, we must do something quickly or risk falling farther behind in this highly competitive global economy.

[Alessandro17]

*laugh*

 

Yes... yes... the entirety of human contribution made by the people of the United States can be boiled down to current affairs on Wall Street and Pennsylvania Avenue. Just brilliant. Please don't get me started on Italy.

 

Mine was a bitter reply to m16's "it isnt fair to take our hard earned prosperity and give it to undeserving lazy/dumb people" and to every other American who feels like him. But it seems perfectly fair to spend billions for totally unmotivated and useless wars.

Say what you want, but in Europe very few people feel like that.

Of course you have contributed to Mankind, but why on earth did you vote for a man like Bush twice???

 

As to Italy I am always the first to acknowledge its shortcomings. But at least we learned after WW2 not to wage useless wars. We have Health Care free for all, among others.

[solaar]

We should keep in mind, "the ugly American" is just a stereotype. If I could, I would keep the most ignorant among us off the airwaves and safe and sound here at home away from our horrified global friends and neighbors... but I can't. Sadly, our politicians and media pander to them. It's funny, the vast majority who don't feel compelled to share their opinion probably should. The world would have quite a different take on us if the did.

Well, I was not even referring to those extreme cases, ie. the ones with the swastika tattoos or the pointed hoods with peep holes.

What I meant, Alessandro mentioned it already. US presidency 2000 and 2004... while the vast majority of the 'rest of the world' cringed when the name Bush popped up (yes already in 2000), US voters were able to whip up at least 49% for him...

 

It's funny, the vast majority who don't feel compelled to share their opinion probably should. The world would have quite a different take on us if the did.

That's exactly the point. In Europe and in many other places in the world people voice their opinion, quite loudly and drastically sometimes. Not only because they can and because many things in daily life over here are politicised but especially because otherwise nothing will ever change for better if there is a problem somewhere. Open verbal controversy is not a taboo over here, in all aspects of life.

I know btw that stating one's opinion which is not the majority's opinion is often dismissed as bitching and whining among Americans.

 

I know from friends and family in the US that during the Dubya admin a lot of people who are otherwise intelligent and critical thinkers were simply scared to lose their jobs and social contacts and simply being ostracised if they voiced their opinion too loudly, ie. anti-Bush. That fear was actually quite real from their first hand experiences with co-workers.

 

Another absurd and decidedly American tidbit about this election, I've read about some groups of overweight people complaining that Obama cannot be their candidate because he's too slim and not appealing to overweight people. No joke...

 

Well the most obvious trivia is old now but nonetheless leaves a lot of non-Americans still baffled when Obama's ethnic heritage is permanently put forth as the electoral issue, totally ignoring what the man has to say...

 

BTW I'm in the US right now and apart from my usual sources and BBC world news I also watch the 'popular' channels such as Fox news. It always strikes me as really strange that 'drastic opinions' from 'Joe Average in the street' shown in the media rarely go beyond 'Obama=Osama' and similar infantile nonsense. However what's really scary is that such rubbish might actually have an influence on the outcome of the election.

[aduffbrew]

Mine was a bitter reply to m16's "it isnt fair to take our hard earned prosperity and give it to undeserving lazy/dumb people" and to every other American who feels like him. But it seems perfectly fair to spend billions for totally unmotivated and useless wars.

Say what you want, but in Europe very few people feel like that.

Oh you're fine... no worries. While Italy does share some of our shortcomings and has a few uniquely her own, I still have difficulty describing my few visits to those who have never been.... it certainly is a testament to man's potential... and that's puting it mildly. Italy is definitely a "must see" for humanist and deist alike.

 

Of course you have contributed to Mankind, but why on earth did you vote for a man like Bush twice???

The same reason you voted Berlusconi back in... fear of the alternative! And for the record, more the 50% of us didn't vote for him. Of those who did vote for him, most feel betrayed and manipulated. There is mounting collective shame for letting themselves get caught up in the mass hysteria of the time. As Bush's ratings reach all time lows, there is a poll that he is climbing in... "worst president in all American history." Given his global impact, I would have to agree.

 

Check out Bruno Bozzetto's "Europe and Italy." Italians making fun of Italians is OK, right?

 

http://www.infonegocio.com/xeron/bruno/italy.html

 

 

BTW I'm in the US right now and apart from my usual sources and BBC world news I also watch the 'popular' channels such as Fox news. It always strikes me as really strange that 'drastic opinions' from 'Joe Average in the street' shown in the media rarely go beyond 'Obama=Osama' and similar infantile nonsense. However what's really scary is that such rubbish might actually have an influence on the outcome of the election.

American media isn't exactly geared to the most educated among us. Yes, I share your fear. I'm trying to remember the old BBC World News America bi-line.... something like "News even Americans can understand!" For some odd reason, they changed it. I thought it was actually quite appropriate.... made me laugh every time I heard it.

[peach-os]

what happens in italy is really shady, but you can´t compare that to the states.

italy has not any ambitions "to lead the world"

[brainbone]

I have no problem with the candidates' associations being examined.

 

 

The information for both Obama's association with Ayers and Palin's association with the secessionist AIP group is already out in the open, for the most part. It takes a very small amount of research to find out Obama's association is of no real concern. Anyone that is concerned about this relationship also probably thinks that George W. Bush remotely piloted the planes into the twin towers while snickering to himself.

 

What is known about Palin's association with AIP, however, does cast concern on her judgment.

[Alessandro17]

The same reason you voted Berlusconi back in... fear of the alternative! And for the record, more the 50% of us didn't vote for him. Of those who did vote for him, most feel betrayed and manipulated.

 

Indeed, but there is a difference. Berlusconi owns the vast majority of all media (something that should never happen in any democratic country)

 

Check out Bruno Bozzetto's "Europe and Italy." Italians making fun of Italians is OK, right?

 

Of course it is. We have an unusual sense of self-irony.

 

Only the Brits compare or do possibly better.

 

 

 

 

what happens in italy is really shady, but you can´t compare that to the states.

italy has not any ambitions "to lead the world"

 

That is exactly the point.

[m16]

 

As sad as that sounds, hence the " ," that is true. Within two years, I will be moving to another country. I was thinking either Canada, because of the distance to my family, or Sweden, because Sweden is awesome.

I agree, I am planning to graduate in 2 years and get the hell out. Only problem is I don't know Swedish. However I know german and they know perfect english so it shouldn't be a such a big problem. Sweden is very impressive.

[Poco]

I think that polititians are just liars. Lying to get into power and then not doing exactly what they said they would. I think that if you want a Bush repeat then vote for McCain and if you want something different go for Obama.

iPoco

[aduffbrew]

what happens in italy is really shady, but you can´t compare that to the states.

italy has not any ambitions "to lead the world"

So it's OK to vote a criminal into office as long as they don't have the ability to shape world politics? Nah... there is A LOT to compare here. Sorry.

[peach-os]

So it's OK to vote a criminal into office as long as they don't have the ability to shape world politics? Nah... there is A LOT to compare here. Sorry.

 

in what part of this sentences did i say that ??? he´s a criminal .... I agree - but it doesn´t matter that much what he´s doing for us. the italians are the victims and this has to be changed. but what could he cause worldwide ? a parmegiano e prosciutto crisis?

[aduffbrew]

in what part of this sentences did i say that ???

How was I supposed to interpret that?

 

If I miss understood you, I do deeply apologize but, frankly, I don't think I did since you reiterated it again.

 

When exactly IS it OK to elect a known criminal? How many victims make it intolerable?

 

I'm not wanting to criticize Italy. Obviously Americas poor judgement has ramifications that are much more far reaching. I'm just pointing out Italians elect questionable candidates just like Americans do. Instead of asking why Americans are so foolish, we need to be asking ourselves why people EVERYWHERE are so foolish. Politics are politics which ever corner of the globe you examine.

[Alessandro17]

but what could he cause worldwide ? a parmegiano e prosciutto crisis?

 

 

 

When exactly IS it OK to elect a known criminal?

 

Never.

 

How many victims make it intolerable?

 

We are not exactly sure if Mr. Berlusconi has ordered any murders. Probably not, because he has been prosecuted for all sort of reasons but not for murder. Not even his strongest critics believe he has ordered any murder.

Once again, the Italian anomaly is that we have a Prime Minister who owns the vast majority of all media.

[peach-os]

ok......let´s try it once more.

 

you are absolutely right about berlusconi.

 

but we didn´t talk here about italy. don´t you find any stronger arguments? what else is the reason you are always detracting from the original question?

 

there is no reason to be offended if someone critizes the states.

it´s not a constructive way to discuss something like "......but you are doing the same" - that´s childish.

 

initially that topic was about U.S. presidency - we could open a thread about italy to discuss that if you want

[aduffbrew]

......let´s try it once more.

 

you are absolutely right about berlusconi.

 

but we didn´t talk here about italy. don´t you find any stronger arguments? what else is the reason you are always detracting from the original question?

 

there is no reason to be offended if someone critizes the states.

it´s not a constructive way to discuss something like "......but you are doing the same" - that´s childish.

 

initially that topic was about U.S. presidency - we could open a thread about italy to discuss that if you want

The question was asked why on earth Americans would elect Bush not once but twice.... perhaps I should have answered, "why does any nation elect the criminals they sometimes do." Of maybe I should have said something to the effect of "it tends to be easier to elect a criminal when that very same criminal has the nation in a state of near panic, where freedom to question has become viewed as dangerous to the common good and frightfully unpatriotic, and the media networks who, to the majority, are their only source of information, are content on doing the bidding for said criminal".... maybe I shouldn't have ever mentioned Italy and let who ever wants to make their own comparisons. However I did it, it isn't "childish" to introduce comparisons when discussing difficult topics. I do believe it is childish to make blanket statements about entire populations. Not all of us were asleep at the switch last election. At least 51% of us were seeing where this was all headed but couldn't dissuade our fear-driven compatriots from buying into the regime's lies and manipulations. Honestly, I do not think we are that divergent on our main views here. We are experiencing a lack of understanding only in the subtleties of the language we are using.

 

Speaking now of the U.S. and the responsibilities of its "commander and chief," I think we can now all see definitively the inherent dangers of a sole "superpower." In this case, I'd define "super" as the access to more guns than brains. Humility has never been the strongest of human attributes and our educational system here has insured that on a national level. Intensions aside, what the Bush Administration has inflicted on the world... and need I remind you, also on their own citizenry... is a crime against humanity. Their "legacy of peace" is really just a legacy of tattered alliances, broken promises, and disrespect of life and law on a global scale.

 

It is in the best interest of all, that the current administration be held accountable for what they have done. Cowboy politics can't be tolerated. The ends do not justify the means. It has been said when a child misbehaves, they are really testing their boundaries and seeking structure. Even as adults, only the most mature and healthy among us successfully self-regulate 100% of the time. I can't think of a single instance when the United States has ever really self-regulated anything. As the often delusional, self-coroneted emperor of the free world, we're not quite in the position to do that collectively. So what I would really like to ask is "What will the international community do to 'encourage' the next administration to allow for this much needed accountability?"

[Descalzo]

The information for both Obama's association with Ayers and Palin's association with the secessionist AIP group is already out in the open, for the most part. It takes a very small amount of research to find out Obama's association is of no real concern. Anyone that is concerned about this relationship also probably thinks that George W. Bush remotely piloted the planes into the twin towers while snickering to himself.

 

What is known about Palin's association with AIP, however, does cast concern on her judgment.

What concerns people (or fails to concern them) has a LOT more to do with their candidate.

 

For example, Ayers tried actively to kill people and destroy government property. The AIP just want to be free. That's one way to look at it. Or how about this perspective: Obama was being pragmatic, accepting the help of someone who was willing to give it. Palin was endorsing someone who on some level appealed to her conservative desire to be free of a central government that's too strong.

 

Here's an awesome column illustrating this concept.

[peach-os]

@ aduffbrew

 

ok.......I´ve got you.

 

I couldn´t see any dialectic in the discussion before,but this has changed with your last post. I agree with you - in that case comparisons are important. now I understand you

[brainbone]

For example, Ayers tried actively to kill people and destroy government property. The AIP just want to be free.

 

 

The AIP has actively spouted anti American sentiment. Something you generally don't want your VP to be associated with, but it so happens that Palins husband was a member of AIP, and Palin has voiced support for AIP.

 

 

In stark contrast, Ayers worked on the same committee as Obama in activities that had no connection to Ayers unsavory past. Obama did not work with or voice support for Ayers that was in any way connected to his past activities. In this way, Obama has no tangible connection to any of Ayers past activities -- To try to make any connection is outlandish.