3nigma Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 For conversation's sake, let's assume Jesus of Nazareth was real, and that the New Testament accurately renders his life and teachings. Here is an excerpt from his greatest teaching, known as the "Sermon on the Mount." It is contained in the New Testament, in the first book, documented by his disciple Matthew. It can be found in what is now referred to as chapters 5 through 7 of Matthew's gospel. The numbers intermittent in the text are signposts added into it, the "verses." He discusses issues relating to: Anger Marital Unfaithfulness Divorce Swearing Oaths Vengeance Love for Enemies Charity Stewardship Judging Others The Golden Rule etc. ***** Jesus' Sermon on the Mount Teaching about Anger 21 “You have heard that our ancestors were told, ‘You must not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.’ 22 But I say, if you are even angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell. 23 “So if you are presenting a sacrifice at the altar in the Temple and you suddenly remember that someone has something against you, 24 leave your sacrifice there at the altar. Go and be reconciled to that person. Then come and offer your sacrifice to God. 25 “When you are on the way to court with your adversary, settle your differences quickly. Otherwise, your accuser may hand you over to the judge, who will hand you over to an officer, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 And if that happens, you surely won’t be free again until you have paid the last penny. Teaching about Adultery 27 “You have heard the commandment that says, ‘You must not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 So if your eye—even your good eye—causes you to lust, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your hand—even your stronger hand—causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. Teaching about Divorce 31 “You have heard the law that says, ‘A man can divorce his wife by merely giving her a written notice of divorce.’ 32 But I say that a man who divorces his wife, unless she has been unfaithful, causes her to commit adultery. And anyone who marries a divorced woman also commits adultery. Teaching about Oaths 33 “You have also heard that our ancestors were told, ‘You must not break your oaths; you must carry out the oaths you make to the Lord.’[o] 34 But I say, do not make any oaths! Do not say, ‘By heaven!’ because heaven is God’s throne. 35 And do not say, ‘By the earth!’ because the earth is his footstool. And do not say, ‘By Jerusalem!’ for Jerusalem is the city of the great King. 36 Do not even say, ‘By my head!’ for you can’t turn one hair white or black. 37 Just say a simple, ‘Yes, I will,’ or ‘No, I won’t.’ Anything beyond this is from the evil one. Teaching about Revenge 38 “You have heard the law that says the punishment must match the injury: ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also. 40 If you are sued in court and your shirt is taken from you, give your coat, too. 41 If a soldier demands that you carry his gear for a mile, carry it two miles. 42 Give to those who ask, and don’t turn away from those who want to borrow. Teaching about Love for Enemies 43 “You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. 44 But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! 45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. 46 If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. 47 If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. 48 But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect. Teaching about Giving to the Needy “Watch out! Don’t do your good deeds publicly, to be admired by others, for you will lose the reward from your Father in heaven. 2 When you give to someone in need, don’t do as the hypocrites do—blowing trumpets in the synagogues and streets to call attention to their acts of charity! I tell you the truth, they have received all the reward they will ever get. 3 But when you give to someone in need, don’t let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. 4 Give your gifts in private, and your Father, who sees everything, will reward you. Teaching about Money and Possessions 19 “Don’t store up treasures here on earth, where moths eat them and rust destroys them, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 Store your treasures in heaven, where moths and rust cannot destroy, and thieves do not break in and steal. 21 Wherever your treasure is, there the desires of your heart will also be. 22 “Your eye is a lamp that provides light for your body. When your eye is good, your whole body is filled with light. 23 But when your eye is bad, your whole body is filled with darkness. And if the light you think you have is actually darkness, how deep that darkness is! 24 “No one can serve two masters. For you will hate one and love the other; you will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money. 25 “That is why I tell you not to worry about everyday life—whether you have enough food and drink, or enough clothes to wear. Isn’t life more than food, and your body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds. They don’t plant or harvest or store food in barns, for your heavenly Father feeds them. And aren’t you far more valuable to him than they are? 27 Can all your worries add a single moment to your life? 28 “And why worry about your clothing? Look at the lilies of the field and how they grow. They don’t work or make their clothing, 29 yet Solomon in all his glory was not dressed as beautifully as they are. 30 And if God cares so wonderfully for wildflowers that are here today and thrown into the fire tomorrow, he will certainly care for you. Why do you have so little faith? 31 “So don’t worry about these things, saying, ‘What will we eat? What will we drink? What will we wear?’ 32 These things dominate the thoughts of unbelievers, but your heavenly Father already knows all your needs. 33 Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need. 34 “So don’t worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring its own worries. Today’s trouble is enough for today. Do Not Judge Others “Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. 2 For you will be treated as you treat others. The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged. 3 “And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own? 4 How can you think of saying to your friend, ‘Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,’ when you can’t see past the log in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye. 6 “Don’t waste what is holy on people who are unholy. Don’t throw your pearls to pigs! They will trample the pearls, then turn and attack you. Effective Prayer 7 “Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 “You parents—if your children ask for a loaf of bread, do you give them a stone instead? 10 Or if they ask for a fish, do you give them a snake? Of course not! 11 So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good gifts to those who ask him. The Golden Rule 12 “Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets. The Narrow Gate 13 “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it. The Tree and Its Fruit 15 “Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. 16 You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. 18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. 19 So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. 20 Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions. True Disciples 21 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 22 On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ 23 But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’ Building on a Solid Foundation 24 “Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock. 25 Though the rain comes in torrents and the floodwaters rise and the winds beat against that house, it won’t collapse because it is built on bedrock. 26 But anyone who hears my teaching and doesn’t obey it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on sand. 27 When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against that house, it will collapse with a mighty crash.” 28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29 for he taught with real authority—quite unlike their teachers of religious law. ***** For conversation's sake, let's assume here that Jesus was real, and that this is his message. What commentary can we offer on these teachings? What does this say about life, culture, society, etc? What kind of life does Jesus here offer? -3nigma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonTheSavage Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Ever see the "life of brian"? Blessed are the cheese makers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apowerr Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 I don't consider myself a Christian, but those are very good principles to live by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maclinux Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 So bad that even christians don't follow most of those principles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dark4181 Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 Well, consider that there are only three possibilities regarding Jesus. Don't forget that according to the gospel he claimed numerous time to be the Son of God. So, with that in mind, he was either: 1) A liar 2) completely insane 3) telling the truth if 1) is true, then his teachings are completely worthless, as they're the bile of a dishonest man if 2) is true, then his teachings are completely worthless, as they're the mindless drivel of a madman but if 3) is true, then God exists, the bible is truth, and naysayers won't be saved I know which one I'd prefer to bet on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuietOC Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 I find it interesting that even a militant atheists like Richard Dawkins can see Jesus as such a positive figure. Dawkins has stated that he thinks that if Jesus were born today Jesus would most likely be an atheist. Of course, I find Dawkins atheism to be more biblical than much that passes as Christianity today. I find it fascinating that the Bible is so difficult to conquer. If it is just a bunch of fictional moral stories, why does it always challenge us so deeply? Why is so adept at discovering our failings? We understand so little. Proverbs 25:2 (Peterson) God delights in concealing things; scientists delight in discovering things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killbot1000 Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 For conversation's sake, let's assume Jesus of Nazareth was real, and that the New Testament accurately renders his life and teachings. I don't like to assume. Every time I do and I realize it, I say to myself "Damn! I made an assumption". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embio Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Ever see the "life of brian"? Blessed are the cheese makers! Of course - its not meant to be taken literally, it refers to all purveyors of dairy products :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apowerr Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 1) A liar2) completely insane 3) telling the truth 4) Jesus never existed and was a fabrication. I'm not saying that I believe that or that its true, but some scholars are of that opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djet Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 So bad that even christians don't follow most of those principles... And that's the exact reason Jesus came. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dark4181 Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 4) Jesus never existed and was a fabrication. I'm not saying that I believe that or that its true, but some scholars are of that opinion. there is independent verification of jesus' existance in archeological findings and roman historical documents http://www.skeptically.org/bible/id3.html http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/historicalev.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielmramos Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 there is independent verification of jesus' existance in archeological findings and roman historical documents http://www.skeptically.org/bible/id3.html http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/historicalev.htm You obviously didn't read the sources you cited. Here is the summary from your first source. Summary In sum, the evidence for the historical evidence for Jesus is non-existent: 1) There are no proven, legitimate references to the existence of Jesus in any contemporary source outside of the New Testament. 2) The New Testament accounts do not provide a real 'biography' for Jesus. The early writings imply only that he was a divine figure and consistently fail to locate Jesus in any chronological setting; they also fail to cite those sayings attributed to him in the (later) Gospels, even when they are wholly applicable. 3) The existence of Jesus is not necessary to explain the origin or growth of Christianity. So, anybody that approaches this subject from any kind of a paradigm of historical proof would conclude that the J-man Xstians worship is a non factual non historical fabrication only written about in the Nazarene text. Even those texts do not agree or correlate the history of that character within themselves. Hey, big deal. So, what if a religion has a fictional or conglomerated non historical character as its foundation. Many religions do. There are many other fictions in xstianity. Come on, the whole thing supposedly started when a woman convinced her husband that she was still a virgin after she was found to be pregnant. Why don't people jump on that fiasco? You can go on and on with stuff like that. Leave it alone already. It does no good to argue over it. It will not get you anywhere. If you want a really cool epic fiction I think that Tolkien's Silmarilion is much more interesting than the Nazarene text. At least everybody agrees on the source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuietOC Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 If you want a really cool epic fiction I think that Tolkien's Silmarilion is much more interesting than the Nazarene text. At least everybody agrees on the source. The Silmarilion kind of sucks, but I don't blame J.R.R. Tolkein. I don't think it was his intention to have it published in it current form. It is interesting, especially after reading The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, but on its own as literature it is pretty poor. I really enjoyed C.S.Lewis' Till We Have Faces though it is certainly not epic (in the sense of grand scale.) The gospels do not intend to be historical biographies, just like Genesis is not offering a theory of biological development. We should ask about the accuracy of both, but that evidence doesn't have to be solely external. A single historical record can be accurate by itself, though we would certainly wish to have independent collaboration. I could point out that many of the parts of the Bible, such as the gospels aren't excellent literature. They would be rather poor fiction if they are not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embio Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 4) Jesus never existed and was a fabrication. I'm not saying that I believe that or that its true, but some scholars are of that opinion. Dont get me wrong here, I am the most militant atheist you will ever meet. I am 'that guy' that makes christians cry, but I have to disagree with you here. We know Jesus existed because the Romans wrote everything down, they were sticklers for detail. Whatever else you believe, most of the sermon on the mount is damned hard to disagree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuietOC Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Whatever else you believe, most of the sermon on the mount is damned hard to disagree with. I just read Charles Talbert's Reading the Sermon on the Mount: Character Formation and Ethical Decision Making in Matthew 5-7. This book does a decent job exploring the literary contextual parallels to the Sermon. Yes, Jesus' sermon wasn't exactly new teaching at the time. Being a graduate student I find the audience's reaction to Jesus teaching style seeming to encourage a disregard for citing sources. Though Jesus character evidences an excellent education. It is too bad that we seem to lack much information about education in first century Palestine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killbot1000 Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 The Golden Rule 12 “Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets. Or we can take Sociology's golden rule: Those with the Gold control the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djet Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Lol nice quote killbot..... might be the first line of text in my sig.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(MoC) Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 Well, consider that there are only three possibilities regarding Jesus. Don't forget that according to the gospel he claimed numerous time to be the Son of God. So, with that in mind, he was either: 1) A liar 2) completely insane 3) telling the truth if 1) is true, then his teachings are completely worthless, as they're the bile of a dishonest man if 2) is true, then his teachings are completely worthless, as they're the mindless drivel of a madman but if 3) is true, then God exists, the bible is truth, and naysayers won't be saved I know which one I'd prefer to bet on That's where we can all get screwed over. I'm skeptical myself on the whole scheme (if you could call it that) but what if there is some other power we can't control. There are people out there who could bend a spoon with their minds and stuff like that, then why couldn't Jesus pull off a resurrection? I think this is why they call it "faith" and not "law" even though you still have to abide by [some] rules. At the end it's a thing of personal preference, and at the very end its about what you experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dark4181 Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 You obviously didn't read the sources you cited. Here is the summary from your first source. Summary In sum, the evidence for the historical evidence for Jesus is non-existent: 1) There are no proven, legitimate references to the existence of Jesus in any contemporary source outside of the New Testament. 2) The New Testament accounts do not provide a real 'biography' for Jesus. The early writings imply only that he was a divine figure and consistently fail to locate Jesus in any chronological setting; they also fail to cite those sayings attributed to him in the (later) Gospels, even when they are wholly applicable. 3) The existence of Jesus is not necessary to explain the origin or growth of Christianity. So, anybody that approaches this subject from any kind of a paradigm of historical proof would conclude that the J-man Xstians worship is a non factual non historical fabrication only written about in the Nazarene text. Even those texts do not agree or correlate the history of that character within themselves. Hey, big deal. So, what if a religion has a fictional or conglomerated non historical character as its foundation. Many religions do. There are many other fictions in xstianity. Come on, the whole thing supposedly started when a woman convinced her husband that she was still a virgin after she was found to be pregnant. Why don't people jump on that fiasco? You can go on and on with stuff like that. Leave it alone already. It does no good to argue over it. It will not get you anywhere. If you want a really cool epic fiction I think that Tolkien's Silmarilion is much more interesting than the Nazarene text. At least everybody agrees on the source. The two links were chosen to illustrate how two different conclusions could be had from the same series of information. I suppose I should have said so though, haha. The second link comes out in favor of a historical Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonTheSavage Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 So bad that even christians don't follow most of those principles...And that's the exact reason Jesus came. Then they are not Christians. Of course - its not meant to be taken literally, it refers to all purveyors of dairy products Test. Test. I can't hear you. Please speak louder into the microphone! I still have some hiss back here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3nigma Posted May 2, 2008 Author Share Posted May 2, 2008 Lol nice quote killbot..... might be the first line of text in my sig....That's not some new, original idea- it's been common idiom forever. It was even in the Disney film "Aladdin."Dont get me wrong here, I am the most militant atheist you will ever meet. I am 'that guy' that makes christians cry, but I have to disagree with you here. We know Jesus existed because the Romans wrote everything down, they were sticklers for detail. Whatever else you believe, most of the sermon on the mount is damned hard to disagree with.Exactly. So if that is the case, back to my original question- what are the implications of this? Well, consider that there are only three possibilities regarding Jesus. Don't forget that according to the gospel he claimed numerous time to be the Son of God. So, with that in mind, he was either: 1) A liar 2) completely insane 3) telling the truth if 1) is true, then his teachings are completely worthless, as they're the bile of a dishonest man if 2) is true, then his teachings are completely worthless, as they're the mindless drivel of a madman but if 3) is true, then God exists, the bible is truth, and naysayers won't be saved I know which one I'd prefer to bet on To me, these are the implications. So which is it? We already acknowledge that (A.) he is real. We have also established that (B.) his teachings are pretty hard to disagree with. Therefore, we have to (C.) decide which of these three above possibilities is true of Jesus. 1) A liar, and therefore his teachings are moot 2) A lunatic who thought he was God, so his teachings are moot 3) The man that lived the perfect life, and died in your place, to pay the price so that you wouldn't have to die What are the implications? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuietOC Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 His teachings are pretty hard to disagree with. Atheists make too much of evangelical/fundamentalists claims about the Bible. At best these religious people believe the Bible because they find it to be true. Most do not claim to have done historic research showing the historic parts to be true, but those probably aren't as important as the applicable teachings such as this sermon. Also there isn't much about biblical ethics that atheists discard--they are after products and members of christian culture. The seperation line between atheism and biblical faith (which is based on knowledge) is very thin. For example: the story of David and Goliath. This story is often used to show that David's reliance on God's power alowed him to kill Goliath. Children are told with this that God is bigger than our problems. He can do the impossible. I submit that David's faith demonstrated in the story looked nothing like this. David tells king Saul he has killed lions and bears, his odds against the big Philistine with a stone and sling really aren't unreasonable. Even if it wasn't completely predictable, nothing supernatural was required for David's victory . It is significant that David was successful. Another example is the virgin birth sign in Isaiah. Isaiah had a message for King Ahaz from the Lord and tells the King to ask for a sign. Ahaz doesn't particularly want the message so in fake humility says he won't test God by asking for any such thing. Then Isaiah said, "Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God also? Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. So how does this sign come about? Well we don't have to read far it is described in the next chapter: Then I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son. And the LORD said to me, "Name him Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz. Before the boy knows how to say 'My father' or 'My mother,' the wealth of Damascus and the plunder of Samaria will be carried off by the king of Assyria."... Here am I, and the children the LORD has given me. We are signs and symbols in Israel from the LORD Almighty, who dwells on Mount Zion. So you mean all Isaiah had to do to create the sign was have sex with his wife? Yes, so the sign has a very real natural cause, but, like any pregnancy, it is hardly a sure thing to have a child whenever you want one. So, like with David's victory over Goliath, there is both natural determinism and the accurate prediction of something unpredictable involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3nigma Posted May 3, 2008 Author Share Posted May 3, 2008 ...according to the gospel he claimed numerous time to be the Son of God. So, with that in mind, he was either: 1) A liar 2) completely insane 3) telling the truth So- because Jesus' teachings are pretty hard to disagree with, which is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(MoC) Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 So- because Jesus' teachings are pretty hard to disagree with, which is it? I think that's what defines "faith". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro17 Posted May 6, 2008 Share Posted May 6, 2008 4) Jesus never existed and was a fabrication. I'm not saying that I believe that or that its true, but some scholars are of that opinion. There is yet another possibility: He existed but what we know about his life and teachings has been totally tampered with. There are many reasons why this is a credible alternative, I have written about it in this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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